Custom textures clarification

Flayra · May 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Ah, the rumor mill</div>I've heard some rumors whizzing about that the new mapping guidelines mean that official NS maps can no longer use custom textures. This is totally wrong.

The <b>only</b> thing that has happened is that I updated the mapping guidelines to say that we <b>encourage</b> use of our ns.wad and while custom textures can add graphical flare to your map, maps might not be graphically cohesive if they use their own .wads. This could be a factor in choosing maps for officialdom, though of course, we'd tell the mapper if it's a problem.

I just don't want people spending all this time texturing their level with custom textures, then getting mad when their map can't be used officially because it doesn't fit the existing look we have for NS. I've seen a lot of extremely clean maps that I'm not sure will fit NS, only on this basis. I don't know yet, I'm just trying to save people time and work, and allow us to accept more maps.

Continue using custom textures, just try to make them look dirty and cohesive like Squeal's textures in ns.wad. Thanks!

DruBo · May 2002

And I guess those of us that use -nowadtextures or -wadinclude are well off then, since we don't require any wads, much less custom ones.

JasonBostwick · May 2002

DB, the way I see it this isn't a technical issue. Rather, its an artistic issue and a call to make the maps look more cohesive. The dev team wants the maps to all fit into the same universe, and having textures that fit a certain "theme" (be they custom or official) is a great way to do this.

Sono · May 2002

You still might do a clean vs. dirty part map, to simulate an semi infected colony or something like that. I think that would help people if they do whant to use their own custom textures.

chalupamonk · May 2002

I realize that NS maps need to have some sort of continuity threading them together, but I also think that maps utilizing the same theme will become far too common and boring. The ns.wad textures are superb, but they don't diverge much in way of theme. They're dirty, dingy, creepy.

Should all NS maps be entirely dirty, dingy, and creepy? As Sono just pointed out, clean textures are resoundingly useful in half-infected style maps, as well as others.

I'm pretty sure that you have no problem with <b>that</b> in itself, Flayra, but I'm wondering more about what you consider acceptable use of 'clean' textures.

Moleculor · May 2002

I believe what he means is that the textures are sharp and realistic looking.

They also have a general feel to them that might be a tad hard to reproduce.

MonsieurEvil · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (chalupamonk @ May 15 2002,07:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I realize that NS maps need to have some sort of continuity threading them together, but I also think that maps utilizing the same theme will become far too common and boring. The ns.wad textures are superb, but they don't diverge much in way of theme. They're dirty, dingy, creepy. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I think that even though the NS texturing goes for a more gritty approach, there's plenty of stuff to go around. There's no way to confuse NS_Bast and NS_Hera, even though they come from the same textures.

I definitely think it's smart money to try and use the NS textures as much as possible, and then ease custom textures into it where nothing else will do.

Killtoy · May 2002

MonsieurEvil is wise, and while he is not a mapper, his advice is well heeded.
(Just a goofy way of saying, "Yeah, what he said.")

I think sometimes there is a notion that custom textures are needed for a good map. Custom textures do help make a map look nice and unique, but skilled mapping is evident when a person can take a limited texture set and be creative in its application to produce unique and attractive results.

For those of you looking to move to a more professional position, you should consider that texture art may not be your job. You may find one day that you must map from a specific texture set with only limited ability to get custom textures to fit your design. "Office politics" and "job security" are facts of life.

Black_Dog · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Flayra @ May 14 2002,15:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">use of our ns.wad and while custom textures can add graphical flare to your map, maps might not be graphically cohesive if they use their own .wads. This could be a factor in choosing maps for officialdom</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I don't really agree...yes, being the leader of the mod,u and the team got an idea of NS...all the fans/mappers&co are making a milkshake of StarWars+Alien+...+NS this is not bad for me.
I always imagined that u wanted a universe for NS,not simply 1 world or something like that.
<b>NS can build a universe</b> like StarWars made. I won't be so preoccupied. plain tex would be a problem,but i think that custom tex are really handy to go on with the map projects,cos a mapper can be blocked from the needs of different textures,i mean: "hey guys, i'm sorry, i can't proceed with NS_xxx cos i can't shape my ideas cos i haven't the right textures".

Also i think that pushing the custom addicts,would be possible to see modified custom tex,dirtied and so on.

I think that to make a universe,we need lot of different feelings,otherwise all will seem too similar. for eg,Bast&Hera are really different by themselves...but they seem to be buid in the same solar system. Dunno what u think,but i'm sure that also slighty different custom tetures could fit in NS if managed to be dirty/infested.
Look to ns_sync for example! <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

realityisdead · May 2002

I was going to say the same thing as MonsE here. Take a look at both of the official maps, and then at the rest of the community maps using the official texture wad. Do they look repetative and in-any-way similar to you? Hell no, they don't. Every one is unique.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think sometimes there is a notion that custom textures are needed for a good map. Custom textures do help make a map look nice and unique, but skilled mapping is evident when a person can take a limited texture set and be creative in its application to produce unique and attractive results.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Yes.

All the custom textures I've seen are great, they really are... but this isn't a point to be argued with. Really...

Custom textures are fine as long as they fit in with the official ones. These guys want a sense of consistency throughout the game, and while they aren't going to be slashing away at any community map that doesn't fit in... they also aren't going to be releasing it with the mod itself.

Or this is what I've gathered at least.

Killtoy · May 2002

Yeah, perhaps I could have worded that better. :/

That aside, here is how I've taken the stance on textures from the start. Maps will be evaluated on a number of different criteria, and how well the appearance of the map fits within the NS theme is only one element. It is recommended that you stick to the NS.wad because it is the standard for the NS look. This is not a rule. It is not intended to be as concrete as the 4 meg texture limit and r_speed constraints. This suggestion is stated for our benefit. Knowing this we can better produce the sort of maps that the devs want to include with the NS release.

A good example of the application of this would be ns_hera. The vast majority of the map is textured out of the NS.wad. The exceptions are a couple special textures that Merkaba created using NS textures as the base. These textures will tile right next to default NS textures and match them perfectly.

To touch on what Black Dog had to say... Yes, a mapper can go on his own and try to expand upon the NS look. However, in doing so, he is really working to satisfy himself and not the NS dev team. There is nothing wrong with this. His map may not be selected for release with NS, but that won't prevent his map from being released individualy. Considering his motive and effort were entirely individual in nature, I don't see this as being unreasonable.

I hope that clears it up a little. (and if not, sorry for adding to the confusion! )

realityisdead · May 2002

Yep, I agree with everything you said there and in your previous post. Excellent way to put it.

(Not sure if you thought I was disagreeing or something...)

As KT said, no one is going to shoot down your map and ban it from all servers worldwide if it doesn't fit in with the rest, or use totally different looking textures... but your chances of it being included with the mod as an "official" map would go down, from what I understand.

In other words... custom textures are perfectly legal. In all ways. But if you decide to use them, then they better fit in with the current theme nicely if you want the map to be considered for official status. If you don't... whatever then.

(That's almost exactly what's said in the first post here...)

coil · May 2002

Sorry, but I think it's kind of a shame that you're trying to limit the appearance of NS maps. When you look at the back story, there are some elements that fit and others don't. For instance, alien infestation is currently only at the fringes of human exploration. Outposts are most likely scientific, military, or industrial (e.g. an ore refinery) in theme. A city, even a futuristic one, would be out of place.

But there are always exceptions to the general rule. Some other human constructions you might find on the edge of explored space might include...
a) a posh resort for rich people trying to get away from it all.
b) at a research facility or commercial venture (e.g. gem mining) with a large permanent population: fairly nice housing quarters, recreational areas, and administrative areas (offices & such).

Both of these would probably be fairly nice looking places, yet could theoretically exist in the NS universe. Being able to use this kind of setting opens up all sorts of opportunities:
a) like doctapepa's map, a very clean environment can be presented, then slowly ripped to chaotic ruin as you approach the hives and infestation increases.
b) alternating between the aesthetically pleasing public areas and dingy, utilitarian service tunnels and maintenance rooms.
c) unusual settings - an indoor sports area (pool, bball court, etc), a cafeteria, an office, an auditorium... the list is endless.

Obviously something like this needs to be approached carefully, maintaining a futuristic look. But it's been done - Aliens has the fabulous contrast of the smooth, clean Gateway station and the utilitarian LV-426, as well as the juxtaposition on LV-426 of living/working areas with barricades and other remnants of the fighting. Star Wars goes from the detention center to the garbage compactor, from the lush private rooms in Cloud City to the carbonite chamber. Look at Alien: Resurrection - the Auriga has everything from a fully infested nest to a flooded kitchen and a basketball court.

I hope mappers who tackle these unique options won't be left out in the cold. If there's a rationale for why the place was infested that works in the NS universe, I say let it in. Ok, rant done. (:

realityisdead · May 2002

All good points.

You know what though? This isn't about the technical details involved. Not about the backstory or anything. It's nothing like "No, this isn't going to work, because it doesn't fit in with the backstory."

It's about keeping a distinct "look".. or "feel" to the game.

So people can -at a glance- say "Hey! That's Natural Selection!"

All it really is... is that they want something consistent and recognizable. This is only one game... it doesn't -and can't- have everything and anything in it. You end up with a mess that way.

Insane · May 2002

Yeah, I think if a whole "universe" of styles were incorporated, it <b>would</b> remove repetition, but they would be more remeoved from what the team themselves are creating. I would go with custom textures being used, but I definately think they should keep a certain style to them. In my opinion the style of the textures is one of the best things about NS.

-Insane

Black_Dog · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (ken20banks @ May 16 2002,13:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's about keeping a distinct "look".. or "feel" to the game.

So people can -at a glance- say "Hey! That's Natural Selection!"</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
These are good points, but i'm sure u can't reply on your line after this (:p): Unreal Tournament present slighty differences, like egiptian maps and spaceports&co...but if u see a shot u say: "this is UT!",u can't make a mistake.
Looking at maps using custom tex, like Manah for eg, u can say "thi is NS", i won't confuse it with a map of "Alpha World,the dreamcity", do you? :\

I'm sure that if a mapper is a good mapper,also using totally custom he will be able to fit the ns theme. and i'm sure Flayra would accept a super custom map...if it's super <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

realityisdead · May 2002

Well... UT's selection of maps is just that. Random. There is no sense of consistency there, and the dev team obviously wasn't aiming for one. They were aiming for a fun and obviously varied set of maps. Actually, I'm pretty sure they just let the mappers go wild and do whatever they wanted. Because they didn't care about consistency. It wasn't important to the concept of their game.

Consistency obviously <i>is</i> important to the concept of NS, according to the dev team. I'm done arguing that point.

I'm not saying that variation is bad. Variation is good. And so is consitency to NS. It isn't to UT and many other games. It is to NS. End of argument.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but i'm sure u can't reply on your line after this
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Ha. I win. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Moleculor · May 2002

The thing with UT is that it's engine has a distinct look to it.

Killtoy · May 2002

Black Dog said:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Looking at maps using custom tex, like Manah for eg, u can say "thi is NS", i won't confuse it with a map of "Alpha World,the dreamcity", do you?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

LOL. Of course not! NSTR2 tags every shot with the "Natural Selection" logo.

I don't see this as a case where anyone is trying to "limit the appearance of NS maps." What was going on was he had a craze for custom textures, it was headed up by some of the more prominent members of the NS mapping community and in a sense followed by many of the more novice mappers here.

It is clear from Flayra's language that he is more interested in seeing NS maps get to a functional level of completion rather than seeing the maps textured to perfection. If I can read into things a little, I think I could say that the dev team wanted to address the topic of custom textures here and now. This provides them with the basis for addressing specific cases where the mapper has deviated too far from the NS look, <i>if necessary.</i>

This doesn't mean they are definatly going to raise a dispute at every instance of custom textures. It really only means that <i>should they have to</i> dispute specific texture usage they will have the ammunition to do so.

In short: All they have done is ensured that they don't have to hear a mapper cry, "But you never told me..."

At least that is how I see it. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
KT

coil · May 2002

I don't think broadening the range of settings will prevent the game from being recognized as NS. Other mods (CS, ActionHL, etc) have a great deal of variety to their maps without sacrificing recognizability. AHL, for example, suggests "action-movie-style locales" but doesn't really tack anything more than that onto their restrictions for ideas.

A lot of NS is encapsulated by the infestation around and leading to the hives - the sense of increasing entropy, foreignness, and danger as you near a hive and the familiar world gets left behind. Even Fury161 had a very clean, civilian-ish cafeteria... an alien encounter there is all the more effective *because* it's such a strong juxtaposition of familiar and unknown.

I think gameplay and the infestation are more than enough to make NS unique... while I agree that the majority of maps should reflect the style the dev team is pushing for, the more unusual additions also have a lot to add to the mod.

realityisdead · May 2002

Ok, yes. I agree. <i>For the most part</i> though, I'd stick to the main theme. It's not going to get repetative, it isn't. But... I do like your reasoning.

I'd like to drop this argument with this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've heard some rumors whizzing about that the new mapping guidelines mean that official NS maps can no longer use custom textures. This is totally wrong.

The only thing that has happened is that I updated the mapping guidelines to say that we encourage use of our ns.wad and while custom textures can add graphical flare to your map, maps might not be graphically cohesive if they use their own .wads. This could be a factor in choosing maps for officialdom, though of course, we'd tell the mapper if it's a problem.

I just don't want people spending all this time texturing their level with custom textures, then getting mad when their map can't be used officially because it doesn't fit the existing look we have for NS. I've seen a lot of extremely clean maps that I'm not sure will fit NS, only on this basis. I don't know yet, I'm just trying to save people time and work, and allow us to accept more maps.

Continue using custom textures, just try to make them look dirty and cohesive like Squeal's textures in ns.wad. Thanks!
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Black_Dog · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (ken20banks @ May 16 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well... UT's selection of maps is just that. Random. There is no sense of consistency there, and the dev team obviously wasn't aiming for one.
...
Ha. I win. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
from a certain poit of view u win.
Say that UT isn't consistant it's an hereticism! simply UT has a different kind of consistence,i don't find it a stupid fps, like Q3 is instead.
BTW i'm not figthing Flayra&the team: i'm with them, just wanted to say that i think that a good mapper will kick @ss with custom texture,that a good work is a good work and a good mapper will do what Flayra desire.
I was just trying to defend a position: sometimes is difficult to map with a given set,cos when the team designed the textures, didn't had in mind your map,or Manah map, or KFS or...

realityisdead · May 2002

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with what you're saying there. And I agree, sometimes you just need a custom texture here and there. And as long as it is at least somewhat along the lines of the official ones in appearence and style, that's perfectly fine. <b>Actually</b>, as long as it doesn't make your map look totally out of place, it's fine. That was the whole point of this post. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

(BTW, the levels in UT <i>are</i> inconsistent in theme. They range from egytian temples to speeding spaceships. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. It ends up working very nicely for that game. But for <i>this</i> game, that kind of extreme variation would... not... be good.)

Let's just drop this now. The fact is, custom textures are perfectly fine as long as they are at least somewhat consistent in style as the official ones. Further arguing that point is pointless. Arguing that point from the start was pointless. They aren't just going to throw their hands up and let the mappers churn out a random set of levels. Again, let's drop this. I should be working on my level rather than beating a dead horse like this.

I think this whole topic may have created more confusion than it cleared up. So again, quoted from the first post:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I've heard some rumors whizzing about that the new mapping guidelines mean that official NS maps can no longer use custom textures. This is totally wrong.

The only thing that has happened is that I updated the mapping guidelines to say that we encourage use of our ns.wad and while custom textures can add graphical flare to your map, maps might not be graphically cohesive if they use their own .wads. This could be a factor in choosing maps for officialdom, though of course, we'd tell the mapper if it's a problem.

I just don't want people spending all this time texturing their level with custom textures, then getting mad when their map can't be used officially because it doesn't fit the existing look we have for NS. I've seen a lot of extremely clean maps that I'm not sure will fit NS, only on this basis. I don't know yet, I'm just trying to save people time and work, and allow us to accept more maps.

Continue using custom textures, just try to make them look dirty and cohesive like Squeal's textures in ns.wad. Thanks!

</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

If you agree with that, great.
If you don't, too bad, it isn't going to change.

KungFuSquirrel · May 2002

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Black Dog @ May 17 2002,18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was just trying to defend a position: sometimes is difficult to map with a given set,cos when the team designed the textures, didn't had in mind your map,or Manah map, or KFS or...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm sorry, I hate to revive the topic, but I found my name mentioned here... You know how many custom textures are in Eclipse? Less than 10 out of exactly 100 unique textures. And I didn't have them until about 2-3 days ago.

blueman · May 2002

i think that with the ns.wad and 4-5-8-10 custom textures you can do a NS map diferrent from all the others and that at the same time fits NS style, cause NS "oficial" textures are <b>really</b> good and have so variety(do you say it like that?) that you can easily use them for a clean technological room or "industrial" messed up reactor. Using some custom textures when you fell that there is no other texture in the NS.wad that fits that exact brush you have done is logical to be done, but not to use a custom wad as basis and then using ns.wad sometimes just to fit the atmosphere.

pd: If you dont understand half wut ive said dont mind, english is not my 1º language. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Merkaba · June 2002

'so variety' isn't quite right.

You could try:

'such variety'
or,
'are so varied' (instead of 'have so variety&#39<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

blueman · June 2002

<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> thx

Custom textures clarification

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