Marines Too Hard To Win

coil · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Feb 17 2003, 05:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You can look no further than Mr. Cleaveland himself if you need to confirm this "hearsay" Coil [that clan matches result in marine wins consistantly].  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
It's "coil," not "Coil." (;

I'm not saying it's not true - merely that I don't have stats on-hand to back up the statement, as I have for public servers. I agree that marines are overpowered in clan matches.

Note: this is *clan matches*, not "on clan servers." A clan server has a higher proportion of good players, usually, but still can't match the teamwork of an actual clan working together.

How to balance it? /: I'm not sure, frankly. I've been pondering the idea of implementing two very differently-balanced gameplay modes: novice and advanced. Advanced would be similar to 1.0 balance, while novice would be tweaked to even the win-ratio in pubs.

KingKupo · February 2003

you just had a linkof bad games was what i normally say, but i am starting to doubt. I think the Kharaa are getting better or the 'rines more noobish.
i once saw a alien team rushing and beatting them in 3 mins.

SemperFi1 · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerhater @ Feb 17 2003, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You dont have to be rude. Didnt mean to offend Mr. I post here alot.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
And you didnt have to make BS assesments based on absolutley nothing.

Shockeh · February 2003

Semper - Flamebaiting is bad, mm'kay?

playerhater · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Feb 17 2003, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerhater @ Feb 17 2003, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You dont have to be rude. Didnt mean to offend Mr. I post here alot. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And you didnt have to make BS assesments based on absolutley nothing.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
All Im saying if you guys think this game is so balanced show me the stats to prove it ad I will shutup.

Semper, SUYF

coil · February 2003

Play nice.

[/moderator]

Talesin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Feb 17 2003, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How to balance it? /: I'm not sure, frankly. I've been pondering the idea of implementing two very differently-balanced gameplay modes: novice and advanced. Advanced would be similar to 1.0 balance, while novice would be tweaked to even the win-ratio in pubs. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Oogh. Wait... 1.0 balance *did* have the Marines winning in droves, due to all the stuff with killing the TFs not shutting down the turrets, slow spawn times, extra-tough phase gates... 1.0 balance would just cement the Marines into their 'always win' role in clanmatches as the PG Rush was brought out again and put to devastating use. Not to mention huge-clip GL spam.

'Novice mode'? Oi... we'd have two completely seperate games.. already have 'tournament mode' where the no hive kill is gone and FF is on. Clans would all be going to play NS: Tourney, and everyone else would be playing NS: Novice. Making it even HARDER for nubs to gain the skill and reflexes that they'd need in clanmatch play, if they ever make the cut after being trained up on 'watered down' NS.

There's only one way to really make even 'skill' balances. A server tree. Simple concept, but implies a lot of coordination and centralization.

Whole thing is run by a tweaked-out Psychostats, logs sent in to a master server every day or two/three.
Novice servers are where everyone starts. Dump the current pubs in here. As they play, stats are tracked.. Grunt ability to shoot things and avoid being eaten, following waypoints, building things. Comms are rated on win/loss ratios MODIFIED BY THEIR TEAM. So if a Comm techs up, but still loses because his team can't hit jack, he gets a positive rating. If he builds structures, so much the better.
Same goes for Alien side. Kills/Death are tracked, but modified by team win/loss. So if you kill the whole Marine team five times over, but still lose.. your rating either doesn't go up as much (not a team player) or actually goes DOWN for not being where you needed to. Gorges are tracked, along with the amount of times they died, any chambers placed, and if they quit in the middle of the game without evolving down, how many RP they carried into the abyss. If the rating gets too high, they get classed as a Griefer.
F4ing also kills your rating a good deal, regardless of side, for quitting out without a fight.

Skill levels go in a spectrum: Griefer, Clueless, Needs Help, Newbie, Practiced, Experienced, Veteran, Select. Start out as a Newbie, and slip up and down the rankings as your stats are compiled. Thing is, the higher-ranked players have certain servers that require either secondary auth (most preferable, less likely due to bandwidth constraints) with a central registry server, but guarantee that you aren't going to run into a Comm who doesn't know what the Distress Beacon button does. As less-practiced players slip down, they get moved/recommended to 'wading pool' servers where NSGuides can more easily apply tutelage and help them increase their abilities and knowledge.

Griefer is an additional, that lies outside the normal line... you can't slip down into it by sucking hard rocks, but you get put there if you do stupid stuff like spamming voicecomm or dropping Sensory, grabbing 100 RP and then leaving the server, stealing those RP from the Alien team with 1.04's anti-donation stuff. If you get dumped in here, you cannot get in the CC, go Gorge, or gestate into any class above Skulk. You can, however, get upgrades. You can also build things as a Marine. If you play well, and demonstrate maturity, you can work out of Griefer class. But each time you dip into it, it's twice as hard to get out as the last time. Can appeal via e-mail to get out, but it'd be rare to repeal a Griefer unless it was something silly (though 'but I got kicked offline!' would be a problem). Again, repeat behaviour would lead to the griefer in question being ignored, and let to work their sentence out... possibly upward of 200 hours of 'clean' gameplay, to teach them the benefits of playing a decent game. Again, it's WONID-based, so simply changing the name would do no good.
Can also apply for 'Clanner' and 'NSGuide' access once your play-name has hit a certain level of skill (and/or you're in a clan and want the slightly different stuff.. or want to help out the newbies as an unofficial Guide).

The skill levels also have other little effects, though. A 'standard' account can play on their level, or one up/down. If they're playing up, they cannot enter the CC/go Gorge. Playing down, they get a handicap applied... again, these accounts are managed and auth'ed by a centralized server, based on WONID.
Guides _always_ have access to the 'wading pool' servers, regardless of their standard ranking.
Clanners get normalized based on clan, as a median/mean. Meaning, if a clan has five Select players, three Practiced players, and one Newbie player, they all have Select access. It's up to them to keep their newbies in line, and train them up. If they don't, the whole clan may be downgraded a level.

I know this will likely never be implemented. I know that it'd take up real-life resources like mad. It'd also be a logistics nightmare, keeping local servers available for each rank, and not having any get too empty or too full. But you know what? It's got the magic words.

<b>Wouldn't it be <i>cool</i>?</b>

Shockeh · February 2003

Talesin in happy land.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Talesin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerhater @ Feb 17 2003, 09:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Feb 17 2003, 12:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerhater @ Feb 17 2003, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You dont have to be rude. Didnt mean to offend Mr. I post here alot. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And you didnt have to make BS assesments based on absolutley nothing. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
All Im saying if you guys think this game is so balanced show me the stats to prove it ad I will shutup.

Semper, SUYF  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Go. Look at clan match results. Take a peek at sYn's results in particular, if you want an exaggerated view. The game is balanced. Just 'we need better players'. Marines are about TEAMWORK. If you're running off and expecting to win the game on your own... oops! Not gonna happen! You lose, thanks for playing. Work as a team, move together, and unless you're on a server with complete incompetents, the Marines will win every time. Fades go down _easy_ against properly-played Marines.

You asked earlier why ONE LMG shouldn't be able to take down a Fade. I explained. Here's another one... if you're a Marine walking off alone, instead of backing up your teammates.. you DESERVE to die. You deserve to be webbed down and Parasite-killed. You deserve to have an OC built on you, so you can die in a TOTALLY HUMILIATING manner.

Short answer: One LMG cannot win the game. The game is designed precisely for this fact to be true. If you want one LMG to be able to win the game, go play FireArms or CounterSuck. Otherwise, stop Ramboing, get in your team, and get to your waypoint, Marine!

mojojojo · February 2003

I suspect that at least part of the reason clans do so well as marines is because of their FPS skills... I think Flarya said something about this in his interview. Clan players have only been playing melee oriented aliens for a few months, while they have been playing marines for years. All the dodging/aiming skills still apply, while playing as an alien is quite different to any previous games. I would of thought the tournament mode friendly fire would of been more of a disadvantage to marines than aliens, yet clan players are used to it so it makes little difference.

The only thing I can suggest is that the marines are changed so previous FPS experience makes little difference. Or wait for clan players to gain experience with aliens... but I doubt we can wait that long.

SemperFi1 · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Feb 17 2003, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Semper - Flamebaiting is bad, mm'kay?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
So is watching southpark.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

this damn forum needs a good wink smiley.

playerhater · February 2003

Talesin, I agree completly with what your saying!! You read my one post here and jumped to conclusions about me. I have always defended the fact that marines will win the match when they work together as a team. My point is that, how many times have you been sent to a waypoint by your commander and you find out that all of the sudden your on your own with an LMG. Then you find yourself face to face with a fade, your dead. Yes, poor commanding is the culprit here. For you average non-clan player this is a situation most players find themselves in, and its frustrating to watch the fade blink or run away to regenerate after you have emptied an entire clip into them, while your sitting there asking for health and the commander ignores you. So Im not saying that I run off by myself and try to win the game with my LMG.

Or, how many times have you spawned only to find that no one is around, oh and theres a fade coming around the corner blasting acid rockets in your direction. I will have to admit that when the members of my clan play marine together, 9 times out of 10 we will win, but in general when there are no clan members around it is very difficult to play marine unless by chance you have some team oriented players and a good commander.

The aliens have the luxury of acquiring thier own res and can choose what entity they want to be. The marines typically have to beg for armor, guns, health or whatever. Im not trying to argue here and I would never insult someone to prove my point as others do in this forum.

BlackPanther · February 2003

I dont have this problem.
Every team i join always wins! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Talesin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (playerhater @ Feb 17 2003, 11:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Talesin, I agree completly with what your saying!! You read my one post here and jumped to conclusions about me. I have always defended the fact that marines will win the match when they work together as a team. My point is that, how many times have you been sent to a waypoint by your commander and you find out that all of the sudden your on your own with an LMG.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Playing with clanners, maybe once out of twenty, thirty times, unless the waypoint is a build order in a secured location. On a pub server, I'm lucky to EVER get a waypoint. In which case I point at two guys and tell them to come with me, and ask the Comm what we're up to. If he orders me to take a Hive, I haul my recruits along (sometimes a firm voice is all you need) and get to the hive in question, or the nearest one if none is specified.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Then you find yourself face to face with a fade, your dead.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No, then I scream 'BOO-YAH, MOTHERF*CKER!!', and go after him. Usually I'm the first to fall, but one of the two I hauled along gets him, and takes away 54RP from the Aliens, as well as gestate-time. Fair trade off, when my life was free.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Yes, poor commanding is the culprit here. For you average non-clan player this is a situation most players find themselves in, and its frustrating to watch the fade blink or run away to regenerate after you have emptied an entire clip into them, while your sitting there asking for health and the commander ignores you. So Im not saying that I run off by myself and try to win the game with my LMG.

Or, how many times have you spawned only to find that no one is around, oh and theres a fade coming around the corner blasting acid rockets in your direction.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Again. Booyah. CHARGE. Sometimes the Fade is so startled that he'll try to run away, or run away spamming acid rockets, hitting the 'invisible wall' in front of him and doing me no damage at all. Again, usually I'll die. But I just bought my team the time they need, and will be respawned soon enough just in case he comes back for more.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I will have to admit that when the members of my clan play marine together, 9 times out of 10 we will win, but in general when there are no clan members around it is very difficult to play marine unless by chance you have some team oriented players and a good commander.

The aliens have the luxury of acquiring thier own res and can choose what entity they want to be. The marines typically have to beg for armor, guns, health or whatever. Im not trying to argue here and I would never insult someone to prove my point as others do in this forum.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That luxury is a curse, compared to the Marines' communal resources. It comes in SLOW. Imagine an Alien team with a communal pool... upgrades in the first few seconds, a second Hive in the first minute of play, AND a couple of resource towers. Greatest strength? Not really. A griefer can still screw the team by going Gorge and sitting there, absorbing a good chunk of the team's RP. Oh.. and the team DOESN'T get it back when he leaves/is kicked.

Heh. I've got no problem throwing a kick in the butt into my posts when it's 'Captain Obvious' time about something that another forumite either can't, or refuses to, grasp. Like why spawning Marines with 3 grenades each would be a BAD thing (grenade spam is ALREADY a problem.. we want it in the early game for some reason?!), why a riot shield is outright STUPID, and why flashbangs shouldn't be put in. Also, the resource models (someone wanted to be able to recycle LMGs to get RP.. something for nothing? IDIOT) and progression of game and balance tends to be misunderstood, if not outright ignored in most of the 'I WANT UBAR GUN!!!' threads.

Kind speech and understanding is for those who don't know. Harsh words and mental smackdown are for those who refuse to listen/learn.

playerhater · February 2003

Finally what I was looking for, an unbiased perspective I can apply. Thankyou Talesin.

Charge · February 2003

if you relocate as marine you usually win <img src='http://www.sim-architekt.com/grafik/smilies/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

Church · February 2003

The system Talesin proposed would need a bit of tweaking, becuase I think the segregation would just mean the new/bad players never get to practice with the good ones. You don't get better unless you play against people better than you. Besides, what if you want to play with your friends, whom you've introduced to NS, but they're at newbie status and you're at select status?

Maybe we could implement some kind of affirmative action policy to help to those deserving get into any-ranked server they want for a certain time period to let them test the waters and practice. Plus, some outreach programs would be nice,

Talesin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Feb 18 2003, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The system Talesin proposed would need a bit of tweaking, becuase I think the segregation would just mean the new/bad players never get to practice with the good ones. You don't get better unless you play against people better than you. Besides, what if you want to play with your friends, whom you've introduced to NS, but they're at newbie status and you're at select status?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's why you can play on a server one step up, just not go Comm or Gorge there until you've earned the status level needed. Want to play with friends? Go to one of the 'unrated' servers that choose not to participate in the ranking system. Anyone can put up a serve, after all.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Maybe we could implement some kind of affirmative action policy to help to those deserving get into any-ranked server they want for a certain time period to let them test the waters and practice. Plus, some outreach programs would be nice,</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Again, this is why you can play one rank above your current, just not as a Comm or Gorge to prevent (or at least make it less likely for) a skilled team from being screwed over by an unskilled tactician.
Outreach Program == Guide Flag. If you're a guide, you get to go into the mid-to-low level servers to help out, and teach.

Again... this'll never happen, but it'd be cool to imagine. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Shockeh · February 2003

I'm more scared overall that Kilmster has found the 'smackhead' smiley, which looks like he needs to shoot up.

Charge · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Feb 18 2003, 04:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I find if you build nothing but turreNts in spawn, you usually win.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
yup that's even more viable tactic! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Talesin · February 2003

Why not carry it a step further, and drop a CC in every vent on the level? Seal them all closed so you don't have to worry about aliens using them to hide, or get from place to place? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'> Unless it's just a for-fun thing, and not a real scrim.

Marines Too Hard To Win

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