At a distance, fades lose nearly 0 dmg output, while a marine has a hard time putting bullets into you. Melee range, unless the marine sucks, you're going to take a lot of bullets, and do what? 20% more damage? Now imagine doing taking 6 marines in 60 seconds... Which comes out on top. Do the math =) Also take into account the chance in which a marine will take advantage of what you're doing. The marine will have a tough time doing something which you weren't excepting at long range... while if you just pop into the middle of their base, who knows where all of them are, or what they have up their sleeve.
ef?fi?cien?cy 1. a. The quality or property of being efficient. b. The degree to which this quality is exercised: The program was implemented with great efficiency and speed. 2. a. <b>The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.</b> b. The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation. 3. a. An efficiency apartment. <-- wtf?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
No, it's actually the other way around.
The marines tend to miss MORE at close range, because I'm strafing back & forth in front & them, and they're desperately trying not to get chopped to bits, instead of standing still & emptying their clip at me.
A standard LA/LMG marine (And I have chopped up lots, so please don't patronize me by saying they were all newbs...) will at most get 1/4 of his clip into me, and that's at most. Most barely get to fire with blink & celerity.
Sure, if I blink into a base, I'm gonna die. But <b>HELLO! I TOOK ON A WHOLE BASE.</b> If I was that dumb, I'd have stopped playing Fade by now. I'll happily melee a base, but only
A) If the marines are busy already somewhere else (I'll often go base attack whilst my teammates reclaim a hive - They give me distraction, I make the 'rines divert precious troops back to his spawn)
B) I know the marines have just taken a hefty loss, and won't have all respawned yet (most decent teams now have at most 2 spawns, often 1)
C) I'm not alone. And by not alone, I don't mean I've got some lousy acid spammer with me. I mean, I have some decent Skulk or melee Fade backup. Skulk is actually preferred, as I'm taking the ammo, whilst the skulk tends to get free reign. This, I don't mind, because we win.
Wasn't this what the dev team was trying to avoid? Acid spam overkill? Wasn't those claws on the end of their arms supposed to do something other than serve as decoration?
I say the fades should get decked out with more armor, lower cost, and the acid rocket should get nerfed to a low biological damage/last ditch range weapon. This way, you force a fade to become a fighter versus the alien grenadier role that they're relegated to at this point. With these fade tactics you people are prescribing, you might as well have a fade that don't have claws or blinking abilities at all.
No offense, but that entire first post can be reduced to two words: SPAM ROCKETS. I mean, isn't there supposed to be a little more to playing a fade than that? I think it has verbally reduced the Fade to the least versatile kharaa class in the entire game. According to this, what other alien class can get away with using the same ability for pretty much every situation? (Even skulks need parasite to tag and leap to manuevre, folks)
Hopefully 1.1 can steer kharaa players away from this kind of mentality.
I totally 100% agree with Xpander on this one. I've been saying generally the same thing since the game came out. I think that the fades splash damage should be significantly reduced (by like 70%), so that it's not so much a noob cannon, but an aim based damage dealer. Fades do an incredible amount of damage at close range. The problem is, that if you've honed your tactics, there is no point to. I don't mean to patronize anyone, and I do realize I am, but it's the truth. When you say you take out their whole team, do you think I fail at this? I don't. They all end up dead, but I end up barely hurt, and that's the flaw in it all. No one class should be able to take on 4 marines at once without any trouble at all, on a constant basis... However, it seems people don't play fades in this manner enough to make it a valid problem. And about the whole aim thing, close to far. I think you may be right with the average marine, but if you've got a marine with under 50 ping, and relatively fast reflexes, strafing isn't going to work. At least not in my experiences.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, bar adjustments because the resource systems are different, but I'd expect my 58 rez of Fade to kill 4 marines happily, unless they were touting a similar amount of rez, IMO.
If 4 basic marines with no upgrades chopped me up, I'd be sat there thinking... "WHY did I bother to save rez at all?"
If 3 marines with HMGs are holding your final hive location, what are you gonna do? You can't very well skulk them, you can't lerk THREE, and onos is impossible since they're in your final hive location. In this situation, realistically, what are you going to do but assault with acid rockets from a distance???
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited February 2003
Blink over to them & chop them all up, just like I said. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
OR
Get a few decent skulks, and Leap/Bite your way over. If you take 4-5 skulks (which is STILL much cheaper than 3 HMG's) you will probably eat them, and the comm just lost
<!--QuoteBegin--Propain+Feb 17 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Propain @ Feb 17 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming the marine you're fighting has aim, and one clip to shoot off before he dies (usually the case)... Think about it.
At a distance, fades lose nearly 0 dmg output, while a marine has a hard time putting bullets into you. Melee range, unless the marine sucks, you're going to take a lot of bullets, and do what? 20% more damage? Now imagine doing taking 6 marines in 60 seconds... Which comes out on top. Do the math =) Also take into account the chance in which a marine will take advantage of what you're doing. The marine will have a tough time doing something which you weren't excepting at long range... while if you just pop into the middle of their base, who knows where all of them are, or what they have up their sleeve.
ef?fi?cien?cy 1. a. The quality or property of being efficient. b. The degree to which this quality is exercised: The program was implemented with great efficiency and speed. 2. a. <b>The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.</b> b. The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation. 3. a. An efficiency apartment. <-- wtf?
Propain <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact is that at range you won't do much damage to a competant ha/hmg team by acid spamming. They will be welding each other while you wait for your acid to recharge. If they have a GL with them, they can flush you out of your hiding spot. Melee fades do a hell of a lot more damage over time (particularly when you cosider the time your acid takes to recharge) than acid spammers. The marines will miss a lot more (remember that you're using celerity, which if you're hitting them a lot means that their vision will be all over the place, and they won't really be able to keep up with you well.
The survivability of a celerity fade is much higher. If you walk into a marine ambush, you will usually get out of it alive by virtue of your vastly superior speed. The same cannot be said of acid spam fades. I can run into a marine base, knowck down a turret or two, and retreat to heal before they know what's happening. I will always get away after knocking down those turrets because they can't hit me as I retreat. The marines I'm playing against don't suck. They're some of the best around on the public server scene. I'm not saying I own them by any means, just that I do better than most acid spam fades around.
Damage efficiency doesn't matter a damn compared to speed of damage output [assuming you survive]. The ability to take down a base or building before the marines notice/can get to it is vastly more important than the ability to take little damage while taking it down slowly, giving the marines time to reach the base before you take it down.
Competent melee fades and competent lerks are the best combo for taking down bases. The lerk can fly in, umbra the tfac or phase, and the fade goes in via blink or run, kills it, and still has vast amounts of health to spare. Sitting at the door acid spamming is a waste of umbra.
I was clear, but missread. When I said 4, I meant 4 at one time, on a constant basis. That could mean 8, 12, 40, whatever. The fact that I can take on four AT ONCE on a constant basis is stupid.
Nicator, you have been fed incorrect information. I'm not sure where you've gotten it from, but it's wrong. This isn't quake rocket spam, this is something entirely different. A marine without HA will usually die from 6-7 acid splashes (if you have adrenaline, that's like 2 seconds tops). You can shoot 5 with full "juice". This whole won't do much damage at long range is just plain false. You'll do 100% of the damage you would have done from 5 feet away with your spit, unless you're hitting directly. The splash on a spit does around 70% of a direct hit (too much).
I agree about the GJ, it's just about the only weapon im scared of as a fade.
Damage output/efficiency (EXACT SAME THING): Take a 5 min scenario. Melee fade goes in, kills a turret, assuming that there aren't any marines watching, runs away to heal. If marines are in the base, you kill the marines, run back to heal. Either way, you kill something, and run back to heal, repeat. Spit fade run up to the front of the base, sees marines, kills marines without being damaged nearly enough to make him leave. Sits there for the rest of the 5 minutes killing the turrets while 1 marines at a time stupidly comes in trying to somehow affect you. IF the marines are smart, and group up, you've got a problem... same problem as a melee fade. Keep in mind also, that SPLASH DAMAGE (which some of you keep ignoring) does nearly the same damage as a normal hit. If the turrets are close together, you can usually be hitting 3 or 4 of them per spit... that's like 200% damage, at least, do the math.
What I was trying to do with this post is give some knowledge back to people who know they play a fade badly, and want to get better. It seems the only people replying though, are the ones who who think that they're doing just fine, but obviously haven't seen one of the few *good* fades play out there. Just try it out sometime. If you can, play around with a friend in a serverb by yourself... see how strong a fade can be... most people assume stuff that isn't true.
As well, *yes* I've played a melee fade. I was like everyone else out there when I first started. I thought that spit sucked because it was too hard to hit people with on a constant basis. I played a fade in the same manner you guys did, and did well. Then I started concentrating on their spit, and started being called a cheater, ALL THE TIME. I started single handedly destroying whole marine teams and their bases. Trust me, I'm right on this. When you win a game with over 50 kills and 0 deaths once you became a fade, then you realize how stupidly overpowered fades are...
For a long time I was guilty of being an acid spammer, but I've since moved on to celerity regen fades. It takes a much different playing style and works best on big maps with lots of room. When going up against groups of one or two light marines blink or run right in and slash them. You can then heal up on the spot and look for someone else to ambush. When there is more than 2 and/or they have decent upgrades you gotta adjust. Blink in and slash em a bit then retreat for a couple of seconds of healing. Then use one or two shots from your acid gun on them. True, you don't have the good recharge rate from adren, but it doesn't take that long to charge up if you use your gun sparingly. The key is to whittle them down w/o giving them a chance to pour enough lead in for the kill. Its great for doing a long term solo patrol. Things get complicated though once they get ha and hmg.
I generally stay skulk (or once in a while lerk to support fades after 2 hives) throughout the entire game, but if I do go fade i find celerity/carapace (or regen, if i'm feeling lucky) to be a lot more exciting and deadly against light marines with any weapon. Once they get HA, things get complicated but if you understand how to blink and when to get outta there you can easily take 1 ha and maybe 2 at a time if you have the technique down (I don't have it perfect yet, I often get stuck in stuff when trying to blink away <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). Personally i find acid spamming just plain boring, but the great thing about the fade (as people have said before) is that it can be used in a lot of roles... not JUST artillery, or JUST melee.
I don't Fade nearly as much as I used to since the price went up. I usually skulk.
Personally, I'm against any changes to Fades because the balance between melee and acid is just right. Making them more acid oriented is bad because it means I'll be less effective as a melee Fade. Making them more melee oriented is bad because 1: it'll encourage more people to do it, increasing the chance of the enemy adapting to it, and it being nerfed and 2: it removes acid fading as a tactic.
The way it is now, you've got the option of whether you want to ambush, acid, melee, or a combination. The Fade is a very customisable tool which can be adapted to a wide range of situations. Nerf anything and that balance falters. I'd rather people learn what upgrades\play style are appropriate when than trying to alter it so that a different play style dominates :/
I dont see why no one seems to go regen / adren fade. I find it super efficent for taking out entire marine bases. I can usually run in, hopping and strafing like a mofo clawing at everything i see that is green (ahhh CS knife only fights...the good old days...) I can usually maintain a decnt (90%) hp throughout an entire attack if im lucky and the marines suck... lol just thought i might throw that out there...
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As well, *yes* I've played a melee fade. I was like everyone else out there when I first started. I thought that spit sucked because it was too hard to hit people with on a constant basis. I played a fade in the same manner you guys did, and did well. Then I started concentrating on their spit, and started being called a cheater, ALL THE TIME. I started single handedly destroying whole marine teams and their bases. Trust me, I'm right on this. When you win a game with over 50 kills and 0 deaths once you became a fade, then you realize how stupidly overpowered fades are... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Errr... okay?
The point I was saying was, I KNOW how good Acid is, and I've found Melee to be BETTER. New players don't melee, go to any pub & you can see that. New players SPAM. They spam like they've just found out that acid rockets left unfired leak & kill them. They spam more than a boybands debut advertising campaign.
I've played a LOT of FPS, and I can happily pick off the JP's, the Bunnyhoppers with acid, and I'm saying I STILL get a better kill/death ratio melee. And as for saying 6-7 acids kill a HA, sure they do, if the HA will do you the courtesy of
A) Not getting welded or health spammed B) Not fire back (so you can stand still the whole time C) You have 100% accuracy (which, if you do, you have <b>issues</b> D) Not have any friends about.
Meanwhile, I'll jump on two HA's with gleeful abandon, quicker if they don't BOTH have HMG, and definitely chop one to bits, and probably convince the other one it's a good idea to go home now he's alone at least. And they paid roughly TWICE the rez I did.
(Incidental, saying about killing a turret or two. I can kill a whole damn farm and still be on around 100/75 by the time it goes down. Eat one turret, eat TF. Higher RoF for claws = fast TF down.)
The very fact that Fades can take down one solo HA/HMG, let alone multiples really does show how over powered the fade is. This is why 2 hive is end game. If you get fades, you win. If Marines gety two hives, you loose (ok.. there are some occasional come backs.. but as a general rule). I am sure there is someone who will start on about carparing resources... bottom line is that at 54 res, the fade can easily takle out at least one HA/HMG (50 res), a turrent or two (38 res) and possibly a phase gate (20? res) for a total of 108 res to the fade 54. This is even without being a decent fade player. I have seen single fades take out 2-3 HA/HMG and a farm of 6 turrents and Tf without so much as breaking a sweat (that's about 300 res folks). Not a bad return on investment.
Of course we all know that rushing the fade will kill him or drive him off.. right? Sure, takes 2-3 marines to have a chance (realiality here.. I don't care what the numbers are if every single shot lands, because that doesn't happen even for the best), but what about the 2-3 other fades chomping on your base as you take out that one fade? That's only if you are lucky enough to get a lone fade to shoot and no WOL between you and fade as he regens.
I am average at best, and I kick **** as a fade. It's just too easy.
<!--QuoteBegin--Propain+Feb 18 2003, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Propain @ Feb 18 2003, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A marine <b><u>without</b></u> HA will usually die from 6-7 acid splashes<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You made a whole post in regards to something that would have been incredibly stupid, had I actually said it, and barely even called me stupid for (thinking I was) saying it. Wierd.
Btw, if you can blink into a base and kill 4 marines with your claws, while only losing 50% of your health, you are a) a much better player than I am, and most people or b) the marines you play *really* suck.
FYI: without carapace, 1 *full* clip from LMG = dead fade. Wish I knew what it was with.
It is extremely easily to pick off Fade's with HA/HMG or even LMG. Most of the time, a Fade will run up, throw some acid rocket's and run off.. But, they never expect a marine to come chasing after them around the corner. Fade's can soak up alot of damaged but they are nothing to shotgun's or HMG's if they get into your face. It's harder to kill fade's if they're attacking you offensively, but if they're running defensively away.. they're easier.
Well, if it was an Onos, I'd run away. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cybrangl+Feb 19 2003, 03:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cybrangl @ Feb 19 2003, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The very fact that Fades can take down one solo HA/HMG, let alone multiples really does show how over powered the fade is. This is why 2 hive is end game. If you get fades, you win. If Marines gety two hives, you loose (ok.. there are some occasional come backs.. but as a general rule). I am sure there is someone who will start on about carparing resources... bottom line is that at 54 res, the fade can easily takle out at least one HA/HMG (50 res), a turrent or two (38 res) and possibly a phase gate (20? res) for a total of 108 res to the fade 54. This is even without being a decent fade player. I have seen single fades take out 2-3 HA/HMG and a farm of 6 turrents and Tf without so much as breaking a sweat (that's about 300 res folks). Not a bad return on investment.
Of course we all know that rushing the fade will kill him or drive him off.. right? Sure, takes 2-3 marines to have a chance (realiality here.. I don't care what the numbers are if every single shot lands, because that doesn't happen even for the best), but what about the 2-3 other fades chomping on your base as you take out that one fade? That's only if you are lucky enough to get a lone fade to shoot and no WOL between you and fade as he regens.
I am average at best, and I kick **** as a fade. It's just too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you dont play enough. i've seen several games where the aliens have 2 hives (including fades) where the rines come back to win it. my friend played one today where they fought for port engine for half an hour just to get into sieging range. this is with HA HMG
<!--QuoteBegin--Xpander+Feb 18 2003, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xpander @ Feb 18 2003, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wasn't this what the dev team was trying to avoid? Acid spam overkill? Wasn't those claws on the end of their arms supposed to do something other than serve as decoration?
I say the fades should get decked out with more armor, lower cost, and the acid rocket should get nerfed to a low biological damage/last ditch range weapon. This way, you force a fade to become a fighter versus the alien grenadier role that they're relegated to at this point. With these fade tactics you people are prescribing, you might as well have a fade that don't have claws or blinking abilities at all.
No offense, but that entire first post can be reduced to two words: SPAM ROCKETS. I mean, isn't there supposed to be a little more to playing a fade than that? I think it has verbally reduced the Fade to the least versatile kharaa class in the entire game. According to this, what other alien class can get away with using the same ability for pretty much every situation? (Even skulks need parasite to tag and leap to manuevre, folks)
Hopefully 1.1 can steer kharaa players away from this kind of mentality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ummmm honestly u take away acid rocket.. and make it useless and the aliens have lost their only long rage weapon besides the lerk..... acid rockets are fine...... wut i think is that HA and HMG should be boosted....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The very fact that Fades can take down one solo HA/HMG, let alone multiples really does show how over powered the fade is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, two hives is one a game endre if the marines don't already have HA\HMG. I think Shockwave was trying to say that you can drop two HA\HMG with a fade if you're good enough. I sure as hell haven't seen it happening left right and centre. Just because fades have the POTENTIAL to beat HA\HMG doesn't mean they eat them for breakfast and therefore are overpowered.
It's around 75 bullets to kill a carapace fade with an unupgraded lmg.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nicator, you have been fed incorrect information. I'm not sure where you've gotten it from, but it's wrong. This isn't quake rocket spam, this is something entirely different. A marine <b>without</b> HA will usually die from 6-7 acid splashes (if you have adrenaline, that's like 2 seconds tops). You can shoot 5 with full "juice". This whole won't do much damage at long range is just plain false. You'll do 100% of the damage you would have done from 5 feet away with your spit, unless you're hitting directly. The splash on a spit does around 70% of a direct hit (too much).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assure you that I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm far from being a newbie. If you read my post, I said that you won't do much damage to a <b>ha/hmg</b> team using acid rocket. I know that acid rocket does constant damage whatever range it is at. By 'at range' I mean 'using a ranged attack', ie acid rocket, rather than a melee attack. I also noted that a competent comm will put a GL guy in with the team. While the hmg has a bad spread making it poor at range, the GL makes up for this difficulty. Have you ever noticed how when acid spam fades attack a base defended with GLs they become so horribly ineffective? Comparing la/lmg marines to fades is pointless. If anyone can't kill them as a fade, they're doing something wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As well, *yes* I've played a melee fade. I was like everyone else out there when I first started. I thought that spit sucked because it was too hard to hit people with on a constant basis. I played a fade in the same manner you guys did, and did well. Then I started concentrating on their spit, and started being called a cheater, ALL THE TIME. I started single handedly destroying whole marine teams and their bases. Trust me, I'm right on this. When you win a game with over 50 kills and 0 deaths once you became a fade, then you realize how stupidly overpowered fades are...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Newbs don't use melee. Newbs don't know <i>how</i> to use melee. When I was a newbie I sucked at being a skulk, as did everyone else. When I became a fade I rejoiced at the presence of a ranged weapon. Finally I could put the aiming skills I learned in other games to the test. I did well - it's extremely easy to hit people with acid rockets. It doesn't take much practise. I do better with melee. 2) We've all picked up ratios like those. We've all found a server where the marines are largely clueless, and owned them horribly without dying. I've picked up 36 for 1 death as a skulk. Not because I was uber (although I'm not a bad skulk), not because the skulk is uber, but because the marines didn't know what to do. The fade is not overpowered. It's just right now that it costs 54 res. Yes, it owns la/lmg marines, but it's <i>supposed to</i>. La/lmg marines are free ffs. 3) *shrug* being called a cheater depends on where you go. Playing on decent servers with good players (which is what I do most of the time) you rarely get called a cheater. On newb servers you get called a cheat all the time, even as marine despite my rather average marine skills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Damage output/efficiency (EXACT SAME THING): Take a 5 min scenario. Melee fade goes in, kills a turret, assuming that there aren't any marines watching, runs away to heal. If marines are in the base, you kill the marines, run back to heal. Either way, you kill something, and run back to heal, repeat. Spit fade run up to the front of the base, sees marines, kills marines without being damaged nearly enough to make him leave. Sits there for the rest of the 5 minutes killing the turrets while 1 marines at a time stupidly comes in trying to somehow affect you. IF the marines are smart, and group up, you've got a problem... same problem as a melee fade. Keep in mind also, that SPLASH DAMAGE (which some of you keep ignoring) does nearly the same damage as a normal hit. If the turrets are close together, you can usually be hitting 3 or 4 of them per spit... that's like 200% damage, at least, do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's take another five min scenario, this time assuming remotely competent marines and comm. Acid spam fade goes to the door of the marine base. Marines group up (SPREAD OUT a bit so that the area effect is lessened), and attack. Acid spammer kills two, and retreats on low health because he can't move very fast and is **** easy to hit. Acid spammer maybe even dies because once his adrenaline runs out he's in trouble. Maybe there's a guy with a GL in the base as well - then you're in even more trouble because while that guy is spamming the entrance you have trouble getting in. Welder guy comes along and the base is already back at health once the fade comes back.
Melee fade (with celerity) fires two rockets to damage the marines while it approaches them. It jumps through, kills the nade launcher guy. It runs around getting hit very little by the turrets due to it's speed. Kills the 'rines, knocks out a turret and leaves to heal (probably on fairly low health). Any additional marines don't have a hope of catching up. It hasn't hurt the rest of the base, but when welder guy comes along, he can't repair that turret because it's no longer there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I was trying to do with this post is give some knowledge back to people who know they play a fade badly, and want to get better. It seems the only people replying though, are the ones who who think that they're doing just fine, but obviously haven't seen one of the few *good* fades play out there. Just try it out sometime. If you can, play around with a friend in a serverb by yourself... see how strong a fade can be... most people assume stuff that isn't true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going beyond patronising...
Let me repeat it again: Everyone knows how to use acid rocket. Anyone who has played UT, Q3, or most other fps knows how to use acid rocket. That's why every newbie fade I have ever seen uses acid rockets. I'm not saying that every acid rocket user is a newbie, just that almost every newbie uses acid rockets exclusively.
Let me repeat this as well:
I play with good players. I play on passworded servers or warservers (as I play in the uk) wherever possible. I find the server with the best players, and join it. I get the fun of playing with some of the best NS gamers on public servers.
Just tossing in my opinon, not really on what is or isnt the proper way to play, or overpowered... but my two cents nonetheless:
People that want certain aspects/features/abilities nerfed because they dont <b>prefer</b> to use them, are exterme ****. Please dont force your playstyle on the rest of us.
Thanks, and have a deliciously marine-flavored day.
If you ask me acid rocket is WAYY overused and not near as powerfull as people think. I personally alwasy go celerity/carapace as a fade and i can rip them to shreds with my claws alone. There's no reason to need to acid rocket their buildings either, a fade with celerity can just run in, strafe around the turrets, make a blind spot and dig in. I remember one game I played as aliens in which the marines relocated to powersilo and were fully teched and kept nade-spamming the doorways. We spent an hour bombarding them with acid rockets untill I finally convinced 4 other fades to just rush in there with me. Once the five of us were inside their little encampent slashing away, it took no longer than a minute before we had destroyed everything and won <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm gonna have to go with the melee fades doing better than acid rocket fades.
Depending on my mood I'll go clereity for extra speed or adren for the extra energy and never running out while swiping.
I played a horrible melee fade in the beginning cuz I thought wow! Now I can kill these guys in like 1 hit!...then I stopped and used acid rocket for a long time. Then I as I got good I checked out celerity and melee and I was astonished.
Sorry propain, but I have to hearitly disagree on your efficiency theory. Claws take out marines in way less time, and less attack cycles than acid rocket. I think its what...3 or 4 on an upgraded? 5 on lev 1 armor. 6 or so on lev. 2, and 7-8 on level 3. Whereas as claws is 2, 3, 4, 5...maybe 4, and it lands a lot more often than acid rocket does. I'll go acid rocket if its needed, I.E. Jetpackers and the like, but I just get disgusted when I put 4 rockets on a marine and he's still flyin around, and then a medpack gets dropped so I gotta trudge around and shoot him some more. I've also found it to work especially good against heavy armor. Just jump and blink a few times until they run outta ammo.(pretty fast since HA/HMG tends to just hold the trigger and spray and pray) Then just run up and claw, welders are laughable because it wont outdamage you, and they'll never have enough time to reload while your shoving yoru claws down their throats. Acid rocket couldnt keep up.
For the games sake the fades were toned down enough in 1.04 that they arent absolute power houses anymore. 44 res and that 10 foot splash was gettin way to easy. Regen is good if you dont plan on running into a lot of resistance, if for example you were going to just run around and ambush, you dont need carapace for that, and regen's 25 hp a tick is very good. Redemption is pretty useless though, since your better off using carapace in that instance. *Off Topic* Oddly enough I have been having some surprising luck with a redemption skulk <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I know, but it seems to work out pretty well for m.
In the end, I'm siding with melee fades here. Far better accuracy, higher damage output, and more fun(imo) make Melee fades come in 1st here, with the Acid spammer in 2nd.
Oh yeah, Tribes Arena > Quake for training grounds <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
It ALL depends on the situation. there is no one *best* upgrade combo for all the situations. I happen to like redemption lots. It saves mybutt 9 out of 10 times at level 3. When your team is scarce on resources or your second hive is about to go down, always take redemption because you have a much better chance of keeping your fade then.
There are times when aicds will be better. There are times when swiping is better. Godly is the fade that uses both well and knows WHEN to use both!
I also prefer redemption because it isn't always possible to have a gorge or a WOL to fal back on.
Blink is the bane of grenade launchers everywhere. When you see the grenades start flying, run onto them, and then blink to the guy holding the gun before they go off. Dead on arrival - GLs aren't that great for close combat. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the other hand, if you try getting in a ranged fight with a GL, you'll tend to lose under most circumstances, since he's got a heckuva lot more splash than you.
Comments
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VS
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At a distance, fades lose nearly 0 dmg output, while a marine has a hard time putting bullets into you.
Melee range, unless the marine sucks, you're going to take a lot of bullets, and do what? 20% more damage?
Now imagine doing taking 6 marines in 60 seconds... Which comes out on top. Do the math =)
Also take into account the chance in which a marine will take advantage of what you're doing. The marine will have a tough time doing something which you weren't excepting at long range... while if you just pop into the middle of their base, who knows where all of them are, or what they have up their sleeve.
ef?fi?cien?cy
1.
a. The quality or property of being efficient.
b. The degree to which this quality is exercised: The program was implemented with great efficiency and speed.
2.
a. <b>The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.</b>
b. The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
3.
a. An efficiency apartment. <-- wtf?
Propain
The marines tend to miss MORE at close range, because I'm strafing back & forth in front & them, and they're desperately trying not to get chopped to bits, instead of standing still & emptying their clip at me.
A standard LA/LMG marine (And I have chopped up lots, so please don't patronize me by saying they were all newbs...) will at most get 1/4 of his clip into me, and that's at most. Most barely get to fire with blink & celerity.
Sure, if I blink into a base, I'm gonna die. But <b>HELLO! I TOOK ON A WHOLE BASE.</b> If I was that dumb, I'd have stopped playing Fade by now. I'll happily melee a base, but only
A) If the marines are busy already somewhere else (I'll often go base attack whilst my teammates reclaim a hive - They give me distraction, I make the 'rines divert precious troops back to his spawn)
B) I know the marines have just taken a hefty loss, and won't have all respawned yet (most decent teams now have at most 2 spawns, often 1)
C) I'm not alone. And by not alone, I don't mean I've got some lousy acid spammer with me. I mean, I have some decent Skulk or melee Fade backup. Skulk is actually preferred, as I'm taking the ammo, whilst the skulk tends to get free reign. This, I don't mind, because we win.
An apartment with no bedroom. It's got a "living area", a kitchen, and a bathroom. So small a fade couldn't hope to blink across it. ^_^
I say the fades should get decked out with more armor, lower cost, and the acid rocket should get nerfed to a low biological damage/last ditch range weapon. This way, you force a fade to become a fighter versus the alien grenadier role that they're relegated to at this point. With these fade tactics you people are prescribing, you might as well have a fade that don't have claws or blinking abilities at all.
No offense, but that entire first post can be reduced to two words: SPAM ROCKETS. I mean, isn't there supposed to be a little more to playing a fade than that? I think it has verbally reduced the Fade to the least versatile kharaa class in the entire game. According to this, what other alien class can get away with using the same ability for pretty much every situation? (Even skulks need parasite to tag and leap to manuevre, folks)
Hopefully 1.1 can steer kharaa players away from this kind of mentality.
I think that the fades splash damage should be significantly reduced (by like 70%), so that it's not so much a noob cannon, but an aim based damage dealer. Fades do an incredible amount of damage at close range. The problem is, that if you've honed your tactics, there is no point to. I don't mean to patronize anyone, and I do realize I am, but it's the truth. When you say you take out their whole team, do you think I fail at this? I don't. They all end up dead, but I end up barely hurt, and that's the flaw in it all. No one class should be able to take on 4 marines at once without any trouble at all, on a constant basis... However, it seems people don't play fades in this manner enough to make it a valid problem.
And about the whole aim thing, close to far. I think you may be right with the average marine, but if you've got a marine with under 50 ping, and relatively fast reflexes, strafing isn't going to work. At least not in my experiences.
If 4 basic marines with no upgrades chopped me up, I'd be sat there thinking... "WHY did I bother to save rez at all?"
If 3 marines with HMGs are holding your final hive location, what are you gonna do? You can't very well skulk them, you can't lerk THREE, and onos is impossible since they're in your final hive location. In this situation, realistically, what are you going to do but assault with acid rockets from a distance???
OR
Get a few decent skulks, and Leap/Bite your way over. If you take 4-5 skulks (which is STILL much cheaper than 3 HMG's) you will probably eat them, and the comm just lost
A) 75 rez
B) A hive
This is a BAD state of affairs.
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VS
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At a distance, fades lose nearly 0 dmg output, while a marine has a hard time putting bullets into you.
Melee range, unless the marine sucks, you're going to take a lot of bullets, and do what? 20% more damage?
Now imagine doing taking 6 marines in 60 seconds... Which comes out on top. Do the math =)
Also take into account the chance in which a marine will take advantage of what you're doing. The marine will have a tough time doing something which you weren't excepting at long range... while if you just pop into the middle of their base, who knows where all of them are, or what they have up their sleeve.
ef?fi?cien?cy
1.
a. The quality or property of being efficient.
b. The degree to which this quality is exercised: The program was implemented with great efficiency and speed.
2.
a. <b>The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.</b>
b. The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
3.
a. An efficiency apartment. <-- wtf?
Propain <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact is that at range you won't do much damage to a competant ha/hmg team by acid spamming. They will be welding each other while you wait for your acid to recharge. If they have a GL with them, they can flush you out of your hiding spot. Melee fades do a hell of a lot more damage over time (particularly when you cosider the time your acid takes to recharge) than acid spammers. The marines will miss a lot more (remember that you're using celerity, which if you're hitting them a lot means that their vision will be all over the place, and they won't really be able to keep up with you well.
The survivability of a celerity fade is much higher. If you walk into a marine ambush, you will usually get out of it alive by virtue of your vastly superior speed. The same cannot be said of acid spam fades. I can run into a marine base, knowck down a turret or two, and retreat to heal before they know what's happening. I will always get away after knocking down those turrets because they can't hit me as I retreat. The marines I'm playing against don't suck. They're some of the best around on the public server scene. I'm not saying I own them by any means, just that I do better than most acid spam fades around.
Damage efficiency doesn't matter a damn compared to speed of damage output [assuming you survive]. The ability to take down a base or building before the marines notice/can get to it is vastly more important than the ability to take little damage while taking it down slowly, giving the marines time to reach the base before you take it down.
Competent melee fades and competent lerks are the best combo for taking down bases. The lerk can fly in, umbra the tfac or phase, and the fade goes in via blink or run, kills it, and still has vast amounts of health to spare. Sitting at the door acid spamming is a waste of umbra.
Fades cost 54 res
I was clear, but missread. When I said 4, I meant 4 at one time, on a constant basis. That could mean 8, 12, 40, whatever. The fact that I can take on four AT ONCE on a constant basis is stupid.
Nicator, you have been fed incorrect information. I'm not sure where you've gotten it from, but it's wrong. This isn't quake rocket spam, this is something entirely different. A marine without HA will usually die from 6-7 acid splashes (if you have adrenaline, that's like 2 seconds tops). You can shoot 5 with full "juice". This whole won't do much damage at long range is just plain false. You'll do 100% of the damage you would have done from 5 feet away with your spit, unless you're hitting directly. The splash on a spit does around 70% of a direct hit (too much).
I agree about the GJ, it's just about the only weapon im scared of as a fade.
Damage output/efficiency (EXACT SAME THING): Take a 5 min scenario. Melee fade goes in, kills a turret, assuming that there aren't any marines watching, runs away to heal. If marines are in the base, you kill the marines, run back to heal. Either way, you kill something, and run back to heal, repeat.
Spit fade run up to the front of the base, sees marines, kills marines without being damaged nearly enough to make him leave. Sits there for the rest of the 5 minutes killing the turrets while 1 marines at a time stupidly comes in trying to somehow affect you. IF the marines are smart, and group up, you've got a problem... same problem as a melee fade. Keep in mind also, that SPLASH DAMAGE (which some of you keep ignoring) does nearly the same damage as a normal hit. If the turrets are close together, you can usually be hitting 3 or 4 of them per spit... that's like 200% damage, at least, do the math.
What I was trying to do with this post is give some knowledge back to people who know they play a fade badly, and want to get better. It seems the only people replying though, are the ones who who think that they're doing just fine, but obviously haven't seen one of the few *good* fades play out there. Just try it out sometime. If you can, play around with a friend in a serverb by yourself... see how strong a fade can be... most people assume stuff that isn't true.
As well, *yes* I've played a melee fade. I was like everyone else out there when I first started. I thought that spit sucked because it was too hard to hit people with on a constant basis. I played a fade in the same manner you guys did, and did well. Then I started concentrating on their spit, and started being called a cheater, ALL THE TIME. I started single handedly destroying whole marine teams and their bases. Trust me, I'm right on this. When you win a game with over 50 kills and 0 deaths once you became a fade, then you realize how stupidly overpowered fades are...
Personally, I'm against any changes to Fades because the balance between melee and acid is just right. Making them more acid oriented is bad because it means I'll be less effective as a melee Fade. Making them more melee oriented is bad because 1: it'll encourage more people to do it, increasing the chance of the enemy adapting to it, and it being nerfed and 2: it removes acid fading as a tactic.
The way it is now, you've got the option of whether you want to ambush, acid, melee, or a combination. The Fade is a very customisable tool which can be adapted to a wide range of situations. Nerf anything and that balance falters. I'd rather people learn what upgrades\play style are appropriate when than trying to alter it so that a different play style dominates :/
just thought i might throw that out there...
Errr... okay?
The point I was saying was, I KNOW how good Acid is, and I've found Melee to be BETTER. New players don't melee, go to any pub & you can see that. New players SPAM. They spam like they've just found out that acid rockets left unfired leak & kill them. They spam more than a boybands debut advertising campaign.
I've played a LOT of FPS, and I can happily pick off the JP's, the Bunnyhoppers with acid, and I'm saying I STILL get a better kill/death ratio melee. And as for saying 6-7 acids kill a HA, sure they do, if the HA will do you the courtesy of
A) Not getting welded or health spammed
B) Not fire back (so you can stand still the whole time
C) You have 100% accuracy (which, if you do, you have <b>issues</b>
D) Not have any friends about.
Meanwhile, I'll jump on two HA's with gleeful abandon, quicker if they don't BOTH have HMG, and definitely chop one to bits, and probably convince the other one it's a good idea to go home now he's alone at least. And they paid roughly TWICE the rez I did.
(Incidental, saying about killing a turret or two. I can kill a whole damn farm and still be on around 100/75 by the time it goes down. Eat one turret, eat TF. Higher RoF for claws = fast TF down.)
I am sure there is someone who will start on about carparing resources... bottom line is that at 54 res, the fade can easily takle out at least one HA/HMG (50 res), a turrent or two (38 res) and possibly a phase gate (20? res) for a total of 108 res to the fade 54. This is even without being a decent fade player. I have seen single fades take out 2-3 HA/HMG and a farm of 6 turrents and Tf without so much as breaking a sweat (that's about 300 res folks). Not a bad return on investment.
Of course we all know that rushing the fade will kill him or drive him off.. right? Sure, takes 2-3 marines to have a chance (realiality here.. I don't care what the numbers are if every single shot lands, because that doesn't happen even for the best), but what about the 2-3 other fades chomping on your base as you take out that one fade? That's only if you are lucky enough to get a lone fade to shoot and no WOL between you and fade as he regens.
I am average at best, and I kick **** as a fade. It's just too easy.
You made a whole post in regards to something that would have been incredibly stupid, had I actually said it, and barely even called me stupid for (thinking I was) saying it. Wierd.
Btw, if you can blink into a base and kill 4 marines with your claws, while only losing 50% of your health, you are a) a much better player than I am, and most people or b) the marines you play *really* suck.
FYI: without carapace, 1 *full* clip from LMG = dead fade. Wish I knew what it was with.
Most of the time, a Fade will run up, throw some acid rocket's and run off..
But, they never expect a marine to come chasing after them around the corner.
Fade's can soak up alot of damaged but they are nothing to shotgun's or HMG's if they get into your face.
It's harder to kill fade's if they're attacking you offensively, but if they're running defensively away.. they're easier.
Well, if it was an Onos, I'd run away. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I am sure there is someone who will start on about carparing resources... bottom line is that at 54 res, the fade can easily takle out at least one HA/HMG (50 res), a turrent or two (38 res) and possibly a phase gate (20? res) for a total of 108 res to the fade 54. This is even without being a decent fade player. I have seen single fades take out 2-3 HA/HMG and a farm of 6 turrents and Tf without so much as breaking a sweat (that's about 300 res folks). Not a bad return on investment.
Of course we all know that rushing the fade will kill him or drive him off.. right? Sure, takes 2-3 marines to have a chance (realiality here.. I don't care what the numbers are if every single shot lands, because that doesn't happen even for the best), but what about the 2-3 other fades chomping on your base as you take out that one fade? That's only if you are lucky enough to get a lone fade to shoot and no WOL between you and fade as he regens.
I am average at best, and I kick **** as a fade. It's just too easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you dont play enough. i've seen several games where the aliens have 2 hives (including fades) where the rines come back to win it. my friend played one today where they fought for port engine for half an hour just to get into sieging range. this is with HA HMG
I say the fades should get decked out with more armor, lower cost, and the acid rocket should get nerfed to a low biological damage/last ditch range weapon. This way, you force a fade to become a fighter versus the alien grenadier role that they're relegated to at this point. With these fade tactics you people are prescribing, you might as well have a fade that don't have claws or blinking abilities at all.
No offense, but that entire first post can be reduced to two words: SPAM ROCKETS. I mean, isn't there supposed to be a little more to playing a fade than that? I think it has verbally reduced the Fade to the least versatile kharaa class in the entire game. According to this, what other alien class can get away with using the same ability for pretty much every situation? (Even skulks need parasite to tag and leap to manuevre, folks)
Hopefully 1.1 can steer kharaa players away from this kind of mentality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ummmm honestly u take away acid rocket.. and make it useless and the aliens have lost their only long rage weapon besides the lerk..... acid rockets are fine...... wut i think is that HA and HMG should be boosted....
Actually, two hives is one a game endre if the marines don't already have HA\HMG. I think Shockwave was trying to say that you can drop two HA\HMG with a fade if you're good enough. I sure as hell haven't seen it happening left right and centre. Just because fades have the POTENTIAL to beat HA\HMG doesn't mean they eat them for breakfast and therefore are overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nicator, you have been fed incorrect information. I'm not sure where you've gotten it from, but it's wrong. This isn't quake rocket spam, this is something entirely different. A marine <b>without</b> HA will usually die from 6-7 acid splashes (if you have adrenaline, that's like 2 seconds tops). You can shoot 5 with full "juice". This whole won't do much damage at long range is just plain false. You'll do 100% of the damage you would have done from 5 feet away with your spit, unless you're hitting directly. The splash on a spit does around 70% of a direct hit (too much).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assure you that I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm far from being a newbie. If you read my post, I said that you won't do much damage to a <b>ha/hmg</b> team using acid rocket. I know that acid rocket does constant damage whatever range it is at. By 'at range' I mean 'using a ranged attack', ie acid rocket, rather than a melee attack. I also noted that a competent comm will put a GL guy in with the team. While the hmg has a bad spread making it poor at range, the GL makes up for this difficulty. Have you ever noticed how when acid spam fades attack a base defended with GLs they become so horribly ineffective? Comparing la/lmg marines to fades is pointless. If anyone can't kill them as a fade, they're doing something wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As well, *yes* I've played a melee fade. I was like everyone else out there when I first started. I thought that spit sucked because it was too hard to hit people with on a constant basis. I played a fade in the same manner you guys did, and did well. Then I started concentrating on their spit, and started being called a cheater, ALL THE TIME. I started single handedly destroying whole marine teams and their bases. Trust me, I'm right on this. When you win a game with over 50 kills and 0 deaths once you became a fade, then you realize how stupidly overpowered fades are...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Newbs don't use melee. Newbs don't know <i>how</i> to use melee. When I was a newbie I sucked at being a skulk, as did everyone else. When I became a fade I rejoiced at the presence of a ranged weapon. Finally I could put the aiming skills I learned in other games to the test. I did well - it's extremely easy to hit people with acid rockets. It doesn't take much practise. I do better with melee.
2) We've all picked up ratios like those. We've all found a server where the marines are largely clueless, and owned them horribly without dying. I've picked up 36 for 1 death as a skulk. Not because I was uber (although I'm not a bad skulk), not because the skulk is uber, but because the marines didn't know what to do. The fade is not overpowered. It's just right now that it costs 54 res. Yes, it owns la/lmg marines, but it's <i>supposed to</i>. La/lmg marines are free ffs.
3) *shrug* being called a cheater depends on where you go. Playing on decent servers with good players (which is what I do most of the time) you rarely get called a cheater. On newb servers you get called a cheat all the time, even as marine despite my rather average marine skills.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Damage output/efficiency (EXACT SAME THING): Take a 5 min scenario. Melee fade goes in, kills a turret, assuming that there aren't any marines watching, runs away to heal. If marines are in the base, you kill the marines, run back to heal. Either way, you kill something, and run back to heal, repeat.
Spit fade run up to the front of the base, sees marines, kills marines without being damaged nearly enough to make him leave. Sits there for the rest of the 5 minutes killing the turrets while 1 marines at a time stupidly comes in trying to somehow affect you. IF the marines are smart, and group up, you've got a problem... same problem as a melee fade. Keep in mind also, that SPLASH DAMAGE (which some of you keep ignoring) does nearly the same damage as a normal hit. If the turrets are close together, you can usually be hitting 3 or 4 of them per spit... that's like 200% damage, at least, do the math.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's take another five min scenario, this time assuming remotely competent marines and comm. Acid spam fade goes to the door of the marine base. Marines group up (SPREAD OUT a bit so that the area effect is lessened), and attack. Acid spammer kills two, and retreats on low health because he can't move very fast and is **** easy to hit. Acid spammer maybe even dies because once his adrenaline runs out he's in trouble. Maybe there's a guy with a GL in the base as well - then you're in even more trouble because while that guy is spamming the entrance you have trouble getting in. Welder guy comes along and the base is already back at health once the fade comes back.
Melee fade (with celerity) fires two rockets to damage the marines while it approaches them. It jumps through, kills the nade launcher guy. It runs around getting hit very little by the turrets due to it's speed. Kills the 'rines, knocks out a turret and leaves to heal (probably on fairly low health). Any additional marines don't have a hope of catching up. It hasn't hurt the rest of the base, but when welder guy comes along, he can't repair that turret because it's no longer there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I was trying to do with this post is give some knowledge back to people who know they play a fade badly, and want to get better. It seems the only people replying though, are the ones who who think that they're doing just fine, but obviously haven't seen one of the few *good* fades play out there. Just try it out sometime. If you can, play around with a friend in a serverb by yourself... see how strong a fade can be... most people assume stuff that isn't true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going beyond patronising...
Let me repeat it again: Everyone knows how to use acid rocket. Anyone who has played UT, Q3, or most other fps knows how to use acid rocket. That's why every newbie fade I have ever seen uses acid rockets. I'm not saying that every acid rocket user is a newbie, just that almost every newbie uses acid rockets exclusively.
Let me repeat this as well:
I play with good players. I play on passworded servers or warservers (as I play in the uk) wherever possible. I find the server with the best players, and join it. I get the fun of playing with some of the best NS gamers on public servers.
People that want certain aspects/features/abilities nerfed because they dont <b>prefer</b> to use them, are exterme ****. Please dont force your playstyle on the rest of us.
Thanks, and have a deliciously marine-flavored day.
S
I'm gonna have to go with the melee fades doing better than acid rocket fades.
Depending on my mood I'll go clereity for extra speed or adren for the extra energy and never running out while swiping.
I played a horrible melee fade in the beginning cuz I thought wow! Now I can kill these guys in like 1 hit!...then I stopped and used acid rocket for a long time. Then I as I got good I checked out celerity and melee and I was astonished.
Sorry propain, but I have to hearitly disagree on your efficiency theory. Claws take out marines in way less time, and less attack cycles than acid rocket. I think its what...3 or 4 on an upgraded? 5 on lev 1 armor. 6 or so on lev. 2, and 7-8 on level 3. Whereas as claws is 2, 3, 4, 5...maybe 4, and it lands a lot more often than acid rocket does. I'll go acid rocket if its needed, I.E. Jetpackers and the like, but I just get disgusted when I put 4 rockets on a marine and he's still flyin around, and then a medpack gets dropped so I gotta trudge around and shoot him some more. I've also found it to work especially good against heavy armor. Just jump and blink a few times until they run outta ammo.(pretty fast since HA/HMG tends to just hold the trigger and spray and pray) Then just run up and claw, welders are laughable because it wont outdamage you, and they'll never have enough time to reload while your shoving yoru claws down their throats. Acid rocket couldnt keep up.
For the games sake the fades were toned down enough in 1.04 that they arent absolute power houses anymore. 44 res and that 10 foot splash was gettin way to easy. Regen is good if you dont plan on running into a lot of resistance, if for example you were going to just run around and ambush, you dont need carapace for that, and regen's 25 hp a tick is very good. Redemption is pretty useless though, since your better off using carapace in that instance. *Off Topic* Oddly enough I have been having some surprising luck with a redemption skulk <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I know, but it seems to work out pretty well for m.
In the end, I'm siding with melee fades here. Far better accuracy, higher damage output, and more fun(imo) make Melee fades come in 1st here, with the Acid spammer in 2nd.
Oh yeah, Tribes Arena > Quake for training grounds <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The AR is just my Spinfusor in a clever disguise
There are times when aicds will be better. There are times when swiping is better. Godly is the fade that uses both well and knows WHEN to use both!
I also prefer redemption because it isn't always possible to have a gorge or a WOL to fal back on.
On the other hand, if you try getting in a ranged fight with a GL, you'll tend to lose under most circumstances, since he's got a heckuva lot more splash than you.