Early Arms Lab Vs. Early Dc's
SneakyNL
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9177Members
Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9177Members
<div class="IPBDescription">n00b strategy?</div> I did a search on this and I got nothing, so either this is new or nobody cares.....
Anyway, since 1.04 there's been a trend developing on the aliens side: getting lvl 3 carapace as soon as possible. On the more experienced servers this goes as far as having 3/4 gorges at the start for the sole purpose of getting 3 dc's within 7 mins. As a result when playing as a marine I'm often faced by the same situation: at the start marines can take out skulks at a range and secure a hive and some resses quickly, BUT after cara is up a single skulk can close the distance and take out 2/3 marines easily, it takes almost an entire clip to bring em down. And only when the aliens have 2 hives secured does the comm build an arms lab.
Being in an experimental mood I decided to drop the established build order (2 ip's -> armory -> obs -> phase) and try something different (1 ip -> armory -> arms lab -> lvl 1 weaps).
Given that the teams were about equally balanced skillwise, the complete and absolute ownage this provided stunned me.
If I hadn't realized it before, now it was obvious that marines, NOT turrets or even mines, are the most effective fighting weapon. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since then I've basically made it my #1 priority to get as many arms lab upgrades as quickly as possible, having lvl 2 weaps even BEFORE getting MT. On experienced servers this has proven quite succesfull against carapaced skulks and gives the rines a fighting chance. But every single time I try this on a nobbie server there's always someone on the team that's not just sceptical about my early arms lab, but calls me an:
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IDIOT
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and a
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M0therF00ker
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and proceeds to demand a buttload of turrets (20 + 19 + 19 + 19 = 87 res <- absolute effective minimum) to secure an area that a single '0 res' marine can hold.
It's not really good for the team to do this even if the comm IS sucky, it almost garuantees a loss.
So...in order to get comms to build an arms lab at least a bit earlier then when there's acid rockets flying around AND to spread the word around the grunts that this is a starting strategy to help THEM, I'm posting this hoping that lots and lots of ppl will read it and start copying the strat (unless IM on aliens ofcourse, I hate it when the rines get an arms lab then). <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, since 1.04 there's been a trend developing on the aliens side: getting lvl 3 carapace as soon as possible. On the more experienced servers this goes as far as having 3/4 gorges at the start for the sole purpose of getting 3 dc's within 7 mins. As a result when playing as a marine I'm often faced by the same situation: at the start marines can take out skulks at a range and secure a hive and some resses quickly, BUT after cara is up a single skulk can close the distance and take out 2/3 marines easily, it takes almost an entire clip to bring em down. And only when the aliens have 2 hives secured does the comm build an arms lab.
Being in an experimental mood I decided to drop the established build order (2 ip's -> armory -> obs -> phase) and try something different (1 ip -> armory -> arms lab -> lvl 1 weaps).
Given that the teams were about equally balanced skillwise, the complete and absolute ownage this provided stunned me.
If I hadn't realized it before, now it was obvious that marines, NOT turrets or even mines, are the most effective fighting weapon. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since then I've basically made it my #1 priority to get as many arms lab upgrades as quickly as possible, having lvl 2 weaps even BEFORE getting MT. On experienced servers this has proven quite succesfull against carapaced skulks and gives the rines a fighting chance. But every single time I try this on a nobbie server there's always someone on the team that's not just sceptical about my early arms lab, but calls me an:
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IDIOT
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and a
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M0therF00ker
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and proceeds to demand a buttload of turrets (20 + 19 + 19 + 19 = 87 res <- absolute effective minimum) to secure an area that a single '0 res' marine can hold.
It's not really good for the team to do this even if the comm IS sucky, it almost garuantees a loss.
So...in order to get comms to build an arms lab at least a bit earlier then when there's acid rockets flying around AND to spread the word around the grunts that this is a starting strategy to help THEM, I'm posting this hoping that lots and lots of ppl will read it and start copying the strat (unless IM on aliens ofcourse, I hate it when the rines get an arms lab then). <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Although might i suggest armour first, then weapons immediately after, unless the aliens really are getting high level carapace by the time your first upgrade completes.
Level 3 cara on a 7 man team = 14 x 4 = 54
Level 3 weapons = 120
Sure, the weaps last, but the rez is spread for the aliens, so they don't need to hugely care.
But... if they don't have carapace upgraded.. the weapon upgrade literally does nothing at all. Meaning it won't help you kill them before they reach you. Again, comes down to how quickly you're upgrading versus their carapace time.
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Level 3 cara on a 7 man team = 14 x 4 = 54
Level 3 weapons = 120
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Not only that, but lv3 carapace makes much more of a difference to an aliens survivability than lv3 weapons does to a marine's damage output. On the other hand, carapace has the additional cost of forfeiting another upgrade, which is not the case with marine upgrades. Carapace requires gestation time every spawn, and costs res per application, and if you're being rushed you spawn minus carapace and unable to upgrade it due to being pressured. Plus the fact that the entire Alien team is completely different to the marine team so its pointless to argue about 1 single aspect of the races being inbalanced against its equivalent :)
The problem for the 'rines is....
Level 3 cara on a 7 man team = 14 x 4 = 54
Level 3 weapons = 120
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Actually its more like: 13*4 (4 gorges) + 14 * 3 (3 gorges building 3 dc's) + 7*2 (getting the upgrades) = 108 res
which ends in slow res for the 4th remaining gorge and a delayed 2nd hive.
OR: 13 (1 gorge) + 14 * 3 (building 3 dc's) + 7*2 (getting the upgrades) = 69 res
which doesn't give the aliens cara lvl 3 until well after 7 mins.
and in order to counter that you only need lvl 2 weaps: 45 (AL) + 20 (#1) + 40 (#2) = 105 res
which is available to the comm much faster and gives a permanent power-boost
I'd work with it more and see how it works. And ignore the people requesting turrets, at least unless they're in really vital locations.
MT to me is a luxury. It's lovely if you can afford it, but i've probably got other things which are more necessary.
Weapons upgrades <b>are</b> critical against fades and structures however, espcially when you start handing out shotties and HMgs which obviously benefit more from 10% then a LMG does.
If you get shouted at for building an arms lab first, just remind them your the comm and nobody else jumped in did they ? Then laugh when you win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
of getting 3 dc's within 7 mins
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2 Minetes and 30 seconds to be precise:p.
And get your arse into #log.ns sneaky <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Level 3 weapons = 120"
aliens have to pay 2 res for every time they carapace, that means on a 8 man team 16 per death to carapace the team, after about 4 deaths the alien team starts loosing res on the lvl 3 guns. what this seems to do is get rid of the marines early advantage of being able to rush 2 hives, but provides a more effective marine force for fighting in the stage when the 2nd hive is being built, or has just been completed, it should be essential for the marines to capture the hive or destroy the hive before aliens can get fully upgraded fades, but even then lvl 3 weapons are still very effective.
With 1.03 the preferred strat was two hive lockdown, then tech. Skulks needed the carapace to prevent the marines taking hives. With 1.04, the marines are often staying mostly in their base anyway. I used to go 1 rt, 2 dcs, 2 or 3 rt, hive as gorge in 1.03. In 1.04 I'm leaning towards 2 rt, 3 dc, 1 or 2 rt, hive. I might go just one rt at the beginning depending on how badly hammered the skulks are getting, and if the marines appear to be moving out.
The generic two hive lockdown is all but dead in 1.04. The phase is so weak that you need to have a really organised team of marines to pull it off. MT is also really useful, as you can tell where the aliens are going to attack.
You gotta do it right, send all but one or 2 people to attack their hive, and take out their d chambers, maybe do a little spawn killing. The the remaining one or 2 people to cap RTs. Have one of the "cappers" mine up the base of course incase one or 2 lucky skulks breakthrough. 5-6 RTs can be capped depending on the map, and if they are up for like 2-3 mins each, its game over, you can tech HA or JP because you'll have enough res to outfit yer whole team.
also when searching, check out something like "arms lab rush" I believe i created a topic like 5-6 weeks ago.
Heresy! Propaganda! Lies!
1) It's not a new thing. Most of the top CAL clans have been doing IP/Armory/ArmsLab.
2) Armor first is always better, it pushes it over the edge so marines take 3 bites to kill.
3) Lvl1 Weapons do nearly nothing. Someone calculated it once, and I think it was... 1 less bullet if you're lucky. I think it rounded so the amount of bullets necessary was actually the same.
weaps 0 weaps 1 weaps 2 weaps 3
cara 0: 9 8 8 7
cara 3: 19 16 15 14
also looked at how many bites it takes to bring down an armored marine:
armor 0 armor 1 armor 2 armor 3
2 3 3 4
draw your own conclusions, I did and it looks like upgrades 1 are the most usefull against skulks AND indeed armor first IS better.
*shock* *gasp* The devs knew what they were doing?! No way. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Arms lab first is one of THE better openings in 1.04
And imo something has to be done about the TF because.....
TFAC = cost too much res to set up a good turret farm and even then , a 80 res point tfarm will have about a tenth of the defensive power of 10 sets of mines on the floor around buildings.
Another problem - turrets do not at all deter fades. And mines can be blown up by acid rockets. So marines have nothing for defence against fades apart from marines. A turret farm which will deter a fade/group of fades costs minimum 140 res. In conclusion, after 2nd hive, marines have no defensive structures which are effiecient in terms of the resource it takes to build them. This is why there are so few hmg ha vs fades battles, even if you spend your time and res capping lots of red nodes and defending them with turrets, the res nodes will eventually all be taken out, resource slowed down and equipment less available.
Im not bothering to do the maths but im estimating maybe 1-2 less bullets only?
OR
If you lose everthing relocate to a hive then sit in there defending till you've totally teched and then go out with a HA/HMG/GL squad to kick arse.
BlueGhost
More aliens are realising what needs to be done in these situations so I can go back to perfecting my beloved lerk skills.
- armor1 then weapon1 40 res
- weapon1 then armor1 40 res
- weapon1 then weapon2 60 res
- armor1 then armor2 60 res
i would pick the first it is the most cost effective.