The thing with China having a billion people (I think that's several times (or MANY times) more than any other country) is twofold:
A) Eastern thinking is that clan/family/country/race comes before individual. The death of one is unimportant. The death of many is bad. The death of a family is very bad. The importance of the family is more than the importance of one person. So, if China felt it needed to go to war, they'd just tell the people (through the government controlled media) that in order to survive, China needed to go to war. And many (MANY) of those billion would be fighting. Even if they didn't have guns. They'd just fight with hands if they had to. Ever had a wall of 100,000 people come at you? Sure, you can kill off a few thousand of them with the right firepower, but your ammo will run out some time.
B) Even if a fraction of that billion fought, that's still MILLIONS of people in an army. Close to the population of the US, which I -think- is something like 16 million or something (I could be TOTALLY wrong).
See why China having a billion citizens is kinda scary?
Sorry to point out your ignorance, Moleculor, but I'm sure you won't mind. China has over a billion people. India will have more people than China in something like a decade. Currently, they have around 900million.
And the US has something between 250 and 300 million people. New York City alone has more than 16 million people living in it. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
yes but the thig is china may have a billon people but those people are i hesitat to say impoverished but its kinda bad with a communist gov anyway it kinda like russia sure they have the tool but not the means and china usese russian weapons and tanks witch US weapons and tanks and well almost every thing is supiror better trianing to i bet 15 us rangers could take 45 chinese sholders with minimu losses and in a war they do really have the abuilty to attack the US main land as there navy is well im not sure they even have one and if they do its no match for The US navy. i dont mean to sound byist but realy if we went to war the us would win (more in a bit but i have to go for now then ill explane)
I know this'll sound rude, but <b>what in holy hell are we talking about?</b>
A war between China and the US??? Lord, they've just joined the WTO! Big parts of the younger party members are voting for a slow democratication of the country! <b>'They', whoever 'they' may be, are not some f*ckin sickos who enjoy killing puppies!</b>
I simply can't understand how you can start and do maths about how many Americans could kill how many Chinese. The war you're speculating about would end millions of lifes, if we're lucky.
Don't start telling me that "we" hate China. Hate is the hope that the object of this emotion will rot away while still being concious, hate means the will and the determination to destroy the opponent at the first given opportunity. If you really, really hate a whole country, inhabited by a billion different human beings, I'm very sorry for you. I for mine can't hate people I do not even know.
<!--QuoteBegin--Vincent+May 08 2002,16<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Vincent @ May 08 2002,16<!--emo&:0--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'><!--endemo-->6)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->well the fact is of that billon people how many are accualy willing to die the there contrey<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't want to burst any bubbles, or step on any toes, but don't be too faithful that -EVERY- U.S. Troop is willing to die for their country. I've seen many a people be discharged when faced with something as simple as a 3 month deployment to Saudi Arabia that they don't want to do... be it for reasons of health (they didn't want the Anthrax shot), or for fear of dying... they just couldn't cope with the fact that deploying is what the military does. I blame it on the current ways of recruiting. So many people are lured in by thoughts of the MGIB that basically forks over cash for college... and the fact that the military pays you while you are improving your education.
I won't lie, part of that, coupled with travel oppurtunities lured me in, but I also knew fully what I was getting myself into. There might be wars, there will be long deployments overseas away from any kind of contact with my friends and loved ones, but I was willing to accept that as something my country would ask of me for all the money they throw my way.
I'm not sure how we got from attacks on Democracy, to communism and the population/military might of China, but the simple fact is that neither country (as well as the world) will be too quick to start a war in this day and age. Too many political lines, as well as political nightmares that can result from a strike. There's my .02.
Question, How can the EU be more advanced if they copied America ideas from the past 200 years? Also the America Tactical Doctrin is all about surigical strikes. We don't have the supplies to engage in a lorge ground war right now. On the other hand, China's military is all but immobile. so its a stand off. Yes 12 rangers can kill a 1000 chineze but their ar less that 2500 active rangers. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Also, Vincent what is your logic behind the EU's society? It couldn't be age, history, or Europe's many "victories". So what is it?
Don't mean to come off as degrading, or doubtful, but 12 killing 1000 I believe is giving them a little too much credit. Are US Rangers good? Yes. Are they better than other countries military? Most definitely. Are they invincible? God no. The US is a proud fighting force, but odds like that, and I wouldn't be too faithful in a US victory. Foreign countries do train their military, and under-estimating their power, force, and will to win would be arrogant, and unwise.
12 killing 1000 is a little nuts. We didn't have those kinds of numbers in Somalia and that's counting all the civilian deaths. And I'd be more afraid of a Chinese Army than Somali militia anyday. You have to assume their level of training is higher.
In any case a war between China and US is highly unlikely. In addition to the reasons already stated by NZ above, the US doesn't have to man power to invade China and China doesn't have the equipment to get much farther than Mongolia. Not to mention the fact that the leaders of neither country want a war to begin with.
I agree that the Sino-American War isn't going to happened anytime soon. Though one the topic there is a quote (I believe when we [I]might[/might] have gone to war with China is the 50s-70s that was "You may nukes 350 million Chinese but there are still 350 million Chinese left."
And I'm sorry Hicks but a 12:1000 ratio happens in massacres. A Sino-American War would have a far worse ratio. And I'm not even going to bother with the Europeans.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hicks+May 09 2002,10:13--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Hicks @ May 09 2002,10:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Question, How can the EU be more advanced if they copied America ideas from the past 200 years?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Question, is Athens an American city? Are Montesqieu, Rousseau or Locke Americans?
I don't believe that Europe is culturaly superior, but your argument implies that the US are culturaly superior to Europe, which is just as wrong.
You gotta be kidding hicks! 200 years? wasn't EU formed after the WW2? Or was it WW1? Still 200 years! You obviously don't have a clue what your talking about, from the beginning til the end.
btw How can u be proud to live in a country that became rich thanks to slavery, war, weapons trade, oppression and corruption? I'm sure as hell not proud of my flag and i don't see why i should. sweden colonized northern europe around 1300-1600, cooperated with the nazis in the 40s and sends refugees back to their countries to die 1990+. So this has nothing to do with racism, allthough the gouverment you praise has showed it's true nature quite well the latest centuary. A faschist überstate who doesn't care about human lives at all. That's is why so many innocent people died in september 11. Because innocent people in the world have been dying for many years thanks to american politics. Eventually these kinds of things strike back. Sadly not on the guys who deserve it though.
Grow up and take a look at the world. Who has independence and luxioury? Who has nothing? Why? Maybe you'll get a different point of view when you see the facts. ---
And to viper: I can understand you getting hurt and so on, i just didn't expect you too. I'm still waiting for you to tell me if you understood why i reacted on that ancient post.
Have a bisuit, take a breath, and look again at what you wrote!
I agree with you in most points and am as far away from liking my country as you're from yours, but there are better ways to express your feelings than getting rude.
By the 200 years Hicks meant that we are copying ideas that date back 200 years, ie, to the Declaration of Independence. This is still wrong, but telling someone with a diametrally different opinion he hasn't got a clue is simply bad style. All you manage to do is to kill this discussion.
[edit]BTW, the EU was formed in the late 50s (or so), after numerous economic unions between European states[/edit]
Under no cercumstances did I say that the EU has been around for 200 years. I am just saying that since America took the spotlight in the early 1800's the flow of ideas has shifted from America mimicing Europe to Europe mimicing America. And I didn't mean to say we were cultural advantaced because that is due to history and America is lacking in that aspect. By I mean socially supior we have had less wars in our history, less massacers, and less mistakes. But we are still young. But the current world is still modeled after us.
On the subject of 12 rangers killing a thousand not only is that possible but true even in major wars. Yes the advent in Mogadishu where 18 Americans lost their lives, it was a massacer for them but they all had weapons. Now let me tell you a little story about what happened in the Korean War. During the first Chinese advance that almost knocked us off the peninsula, 300 United States rangers faced over 25000 combined in PRC and NKA regulars (this means they had guns and training.) The 300 rangers charged with Bayonets drawn. By the end of the day, the combined communist forces had retreated and 9562 of their comrades were "lost". When the Pacific Fleet reached Korea they found 257 US rangers still alive. *scratches head* yeah I guess 12 to 1000 is wrong there. No wait *grabs calculator*.
In that battle Americans lost 14.3 percent of their combat personal and the Communists lost 32.8 percent of their personal. That means that for every one ranger dead they lost 222 of their company. Including the dead was Mao's own son. So let me see ummmm that would put for that battle 12 rangers dead was worth about 2668 so I do appologize for sayine that 12 rangers could only kill 1000. I feel so ashamed. Thank god for the History Channel to correct me on this horrendous affair. *looks down in shame* I am still so sorry. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> Omg I am going to cry. This is so sad.
But Don't worry be Happy! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
For no other reason than the fact that the NS community spans the world, not my country, am I closing this thread. It's getting a little heated in here, and I can feel the fur about to fly.
/me watches the locked thread sink towards the bottom of the NS ocean.
I'm opening this thread so I can post this link. It definitely shed some new light on Pim's identity to me. I'm not sure how much of this article is readable to others though.
Comments
A) Eastern thinking is that clan/family/country/race comes before individual. The death of one is unimportant. The death of many is bad. The death of a family is very bad. The importance of the family is more than the importance of one person. So, if China felt it needed to go to war, they'd just tell the people (through the government controlled media) that in order to survive, China needed to go to war. And many (MANY) of those billion would be fighting. Even if they didn't have guns. They'd just fight with hands if they had to. Ever had a wall of 100,000 people come at you? Sure, you can kill off a few thousand of them with the right firepower, but your ammo will run out some time.
B) Even if a fraction of that billion fought, that's still MILLIONS of people in an army. Close to the population of the US, which I -think- is something like 16 million or something (I could be TOTALLY wrong).
See why China having a billion citizens is kinda scary?
China has over a billion people. India will have more people than China in something like a decade. Currently, they have around 900million.
And the US has something between 250 and 300 million people. New York City alone has more than 16 million people living in it. <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
anyway it kinda like russia sure they have the tool but not the means and china usese russian weapons and tanks witch US weapons and tanks and well almost every thing is supiror
better trianing to i bet 15 us rangers could take 45 chinese sholders with minimu losses and in a war they do really have the abuilty to attack the US main land as there navy is well im not sure they even have one and if they do its no match for The US navy. i dont mean to sound byist but realy if we went to war the us would win (more in a bit but i have to go for now then ill explane)
A war between China and the US???
Lord, they've just joined the WTO! Big parts of the younger party members are voting for a slow democratication of the country! <b>'They', whoever 'they' may be, are not some f*ckin sickos who enjoy killing puppies!</b>
I simply can't understand how you can start and do maths about how many Americans could kill how many Chinese. The war you're speculating about would end millions of lifes, if we're lucky.
Don't start telling me that "we" hate China. Hate is the hope that the object of this emotion will rot away while still being concious, hate means the will and the determination to destroy the opponent at the first given opportunity.
If you really, really hate a whole country, inhabited by a billion different human beings, I'm very sorry for you.
I for mine can't hate people I do not even know.
I don't want to burst any bubbles, or step on any toes, but don't be too faithful that -EVERY- U.S. Troop is willing to die for their country. I've seen many a people be discharged when faced with something as simple as a 3 month deployment to Saudi Arabia that they don't want to do... be it for reasons of health (they didn't want the Anthrax shot), or for fear of dying... they just couldn't cope with the fact that deploying is what the military does. I blame it on the current ways of recruiting. So many people are lured in by thoughts of the MGIB that basically forks over cash for college... and the fact that the military pays you while you are improving your education.
I won't lie, part of that, coupled with travel oppurtunities lured me in, but I also knew fully what I was getting myself into. There might be wars, there will be long deployments overseas away from any kind of contact with my friends and loved ones, but I was willing to accept that as something my country would ask of me for all the money they throw my way.
I'm not sure how we got from attacks on Democracy, to communism and the population/military might of China, but the simple fact is that neither country (as well as the world) will be too quick to start a war in this day and age. Too many political lines, as well as political nightmares that can result from a strike. There's my .02.
<!--EDIT|Spyder Monkey|May 08 2002,22:59-->
Also the America Tactical Doctrin is all about surigical strikes. We don't have the supplies to engage in a lorge ground war right now. On the other hand, China's military is all but immobile. so its a stand off. Yes 12 rangers can kill a 1000 chineze but their ar less that 2500 active rangers. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Also, Vincent what is your logic behind the EU's society? It couldn't be age, history, or Europe's many "victories". So what is it?
Foreign countries do train their military, and under-estimating their power, force, and will to win would be arrogant, and unwise.
<!--EDIT|Spyder Monkey|May 09 2002,01:42-->
In any case a war between China and US is highly unlikely. In addition to the reasons already stated by NZ above, the US doesn't have to man power to invade China and China doesn't have the equipment to get much farther than Mongolia. Not to mention the fact that the leaders of neither country want a war to begin with.
And I'm sorry Hicks but a 12:1000 ratio happens in massacres. A Sino-American War would have a far worse ratio. And I'm not even going to bother with the Europeans.
Question, is Athens an American city? Are Montesqieu, Rousseau or Locke Americans?
I don't believe that Europe is culturaly superior, but your argument implies that the US are culturaly superior to Europe, which is just as wrong.
200 years? wasn't EU formed after the WW2? Or was it WW1? Still 200 years! You obviously don't have a clue what your talking about, from the beginning til the end.
btw How can u be proud to live in a country that became rich thanks to slavery, war, weapons trade, oppression and corruption?
I'm sure as hell not proud of my flag and i don't see why i should. sweden colonized northern europe around 1300-1600, cooperated with the nazis in the 40s and sends refugees back to their countries to die 1990+. So this has nothing to do with racism, allthough the gouverment you praise has showed it's true nature quite well the latest centuary. A faschist überstate who doesn't care about human lives at all. That's is why so many innocent people died in september 11. Because innocent people in the world have been dying for many years thanks to american politics. Eventually these kinds of things strike back. Sadly not on the guys who deserve it though.
Grow up and take a look at the world. Who has independence and luxioury? Who has nothing? Why? Maybe you'll get a different point of view when you see the facts.
---
And to viper: I can understand you getting hurt and so on, i just didn't expect you too. I'm still waiting for you to tell me if you understood why i reacted on that ancient post.
Have a bisuit, take a breath, and look again at what you wrote!
I agree with you in most points and am as far away from liking my country as you're from yours, but there are better ways to express your feelings than getting rude.
By the 200 years Hicks meant that we are copying ideas that date back 200 years, ie, to the Declaration of Independence. This is still wrong, but telling someone with a diametrally different opinion he hasn't got a clue is simply bad style. All you manage to do is to kill this discussion.
[edit]BTW, the EU was formed in the late 50s (or so), after numerous economic unions between European states[/edit]
<!--EDIT|Nemesis Zero|May 09 2002,15:47-->
On the subject of 12 rangers killing a thousand not only is that possible but true even in major wars. Yes the advent in Mogadishu where 18 Americans lost their lives, it was a massacer for them but they all had weapons. Now let me tell you a little story about what happened in the Korean War. During the first Chinese advance that almost knocked us off the peninsula, 300 United States rangers faced over 25000 combined in PRC and NKA regulars (this means they had guns and training.) The 300 rangers charged with Bayonets drawn. By the end of the day, the combined communist forces had retreated and 9562 of their comrades were "lost". When the Pacific Fleet reached Korea they found 257 US rangers still alive. *scratches head* yeah I guess 12 to 1000 is wrong there. No wait *grabs calculator*.
In that battle Americans lost 14.3 percent of their combat personal and the Communists lost 32.8 percent of their personal. That means that for every one ranger dead they lost 222 of their company. Including the dead was Mao's own son. So let me see ummmm that would put for that battle 12 rangers dead was worth about 2668 so I do appologize for sayine that 12 rangers could only kill 1000. I feel so ashamed. Thank god for the History Channel to correct me on this horrendous affair. *looks down in shame* I am still so sorry. <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> Omg I am going to cry. This is so sad.
But Don't worry be Happy! <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
/me watches the locked thread sink towards the bottom of the NS ocean.
<a href="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/08/fortuyn/index.html" target='_blank'>http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/05/08/fortuyn/index.html</a>