The Way Ns Works: Team Dynamics
laclen
Join Date: 2003-02-02 Member: 13020Members
Join Date: 2003-02-02 Member: 13020Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Everyone should understand this basic</div> Okay, I've got to tell you guys that I've been playing on a lot of servers lately that are filled with newbs. Be it newb gorges, newb marines, or newb commanders. The worst of all, I think, are the gorges. Unless you're a veteran player who knows the map intimately, you have no right to be a gorge.
But I digress. The purpose of this post is to acquaint everyone with the vital dynamics of the Kharaa and Marine teams which so many neglect and are absolutely necessary for victory. I can't think of how I've shouted at people for being idiots, only to have them eventually cause my team to lose. So, without furtuer ado, I present the philosophy inherent to the teams of NS.
Marines: As a marine your job is to identify points of contention and control them, much the way European warfare was conducted pre-Napoleon. Although in Europe points of contention eventually became outdated as fortresses were outgunned by larger, better equipped armies, the aliens of NS do not have this luxury. Thus, by controlling the points of contention on any given map, marines will have victory.
The most obvious and important points of contention are the three alien hives. It should be clear to even the newest of players (although some of them still don't get this) that withouth control of these points the marines will suffer a quick defeat. With control of only one hive, it is vital that marines be actively fighting over the second, and if the aliens do manage to get it up, marines must have heavy armor and hmgs to be able to compete. Otherwise, fades will demolish them easily.
So then, how should commanders and marines work together to secure the hives? At the start of the game the majority of the marines should be building. On an average team of 10, 6 should be. The four other marines should be split into two groups (of 2) and sent to the closest hives to the marine start. There should be an initial alien rush, and after this rush it should be semi-apparent what hive the aliens are using. If not, the commander can always (and should) listen for the alien hive location.
On many of the better servers good marine players will take it on themselves to immediately go out and secure a hive. Oftentimes they will be succesful. The key is to not be satisfied with one hive, which will cause you to beat easily, but to lust for that second hive. You must push both and push them quickly. By claiming the alien's hives, they will begin to assault them instead of your base, thereby relieving pressure. This is ideal, and is why good marine commanders rarely find it useful to put turret factories in their bases. If there is a problem with base assaults and rushes, I strongly recommend building a third or fourth infantry spawn portal instead of a turret factory. This keeps the marine spawn rate up (which makes them happy), and keeps your base well supplied with manpower.
At any time, there should be one person in a hive you control, even after phase gates and a tf has been set up. This is untenable, however, since it is a game and everyone wants a piece of action. Therefore, it is advisable to keep marines operating around the hives, at least a few at a time. That way they may quickly return to relieve a besieged hive. Some commanders may feel that a phase gate accomplishes this, but they are sorely mistaken. It is only too easy to a lerk to subtly peck away at a phase gate, or do it so quickly that only a few marines may gain entrance via the phasegate before the lerk has destroyed it. In these cases, you have usually lost a hive, or at least greatly compromised its security.
Ideally, again, a commander would have two phase gates, but this is also untenable since there is no way to pick which phase gate to arrive at. Thus, an excess of phase gates defeats their value by making marines spend too much time getting where they want to go. One thing to note, however, is that it isn't necessary to build the turret factory and phase gate combination for a hive inside the hive. In fact, it isn't always best to do so. As long as your tf has siege cannons close enough to hit the hive and chokes off a significant point of entry to the hive, it is fine for protecting that location. There's no need to spend extra resources building one inside (although if the area is particularly contentious, this may be desirable.)
While making sure that you're marines are headed to the hives, a commander also has to be directing them to points of contention that choke of routes of access to those hives and making sure that an excess of marines does not form in any given area. For some reasons, marines like to congregate together when they're newer. It's like a convention. This must be prevented at all costs and is something that marines must do more than the commander. A max of three marines is all that a hive should have in it, even if they're waiting for a phase gate. Anymore should take it upon themselves to walk from that hive toward the next one. That way, they're engaging aliens further from the point of contention and reducing the risk to it. They can also alert other marines to what's going on.
Another problem that marines have is the "waiting for backup" and "gimme gimme gimme" syndrome. First, if a commander drops something for you to build- BUILD IT. Maybe it wasn't the best idea, but you're stuck with it. This is especially true if you're in a remote location, far removed from your base. Waiting for more marines to arrive is only going to get you killed and have your precious resources wasted. If the commander wanted you to wait for more men, he wouldn't have built what he did. Remember, your life as a marine is worthlesss. So what if you die? Having you alone next to an unbuilt phase is a commanders worst nightmare. Especially after shouting at you for a minute to get it built, and then having you die because a skulk nailed you. Don't let that happen.
As for "gimme gimme gimme," a good commander operating under this philosophy is going to be moving fast, and his marine team needs to move just as fast. You're wasting valuable seconds everytime you ask for equipment. Also, working on this model of quickly seizing 2 hives, holding them, and sending the other marines to assualt the aliens, your commander is going to using resources constantly for health packs, ammo, and buildings. Later in the game, marines often think they can destroy a hive with a jp and an hmg. I've seen it done many times. Communicate this plan to your commander and he should give you what you require. Newbs ask for equipment because they like using it, veteran players ask for equipment because they have a purpose. Otherwise they get the hell out of base and into the field where they might do some good!
A final note to this discussion are resources. Resources are the lifeblood of the marine team, obviously, and obtaining them is vital. When hives are controlled they gurantee a steady influx of resources, and working from this model the first resource nodes should be built in the hives right after phase gates are up. As the game continues, however, the best way to build resource nodes is for the marines to be proactive. When marines spot an open rezz point, they should communicate to their commander that they can put it up, and ask if the commander would like them to wait for a rezz at that location. This way, rezzes are put up dynamically based upon how the battle is going, guranteeing that they are built in safe locations without wasting the commanders time by ordering marines to places. This also fosters a spirit of cooperation between marines and commanders.
By controlling the hives on a map and pushing the choke points, marines will be victorious. The trick is to keep up the pressure on the aliens by making them come to points you control A, and by pushing their own points of contention B. As a marine team, you upgrade constantly. By holding two hives and upgrading, aliens have no recourse. Thus, the game marines play is inherently defense oriented. You're buying time by locking the aliens out of their hives.
Kharaa: Alright. The Kharaa are more complex than the marines since they don't have a commander. As such, every member of the Kharaa team has to communicate well and be aware of what's going on throughout the battlefield. If you're a newb and you're playing Kharaa, you're in for the ride of your life. The best advice I can give you is to follow your friends, and never go gorge.
While the marines play a defensive game based upon points of contention, the Kharaa HAVE NO POINTS OF CONTENTION. This concept is the most vital ideal that a Kharaa team can have, and anyone thinking otherwise will result in the defeat of the team. Now, the above statement may seem slightly ridiculous. After all, aren't hives points of contention? While they most certainly are for marines, a point of contention implies that having control over the area gives you a strategic advantage. Having control over a hive (without actually having a hive in there, of course) does nothing for an alien team.
Many lesser players will rush into the hives at the start of the game and pronounce them "clear." This is obvious, you idiots. They will then remain in the hives, waiting for marines. This is brazen stupidity. If, as Kharaa, you try to play the same game as marines, acting defensively over points of contention, you have already lost. Sitting in a clear hive as a skulk is the worst thing you can do. You're costing your team a potentially valuable member.
The key to Kharaa gameplay is not points of contention, but what is it? Containment. At the start of a game a gorge should be chosen and there should be only one gorge. A decent gorge acting alone will put a hive up in about 5-8 minutes. It is important that there be only one gorge to start, however, as putting up the first few resource towers is his most important action. If he deems it fit for there to be a second gorge, then he WILL ASK FOR ONE. Remember, being a gorge is a GREAT respsonsibilty and affects your entire team, making it harder for them to get the resources they need to evolve. Even if one gorge can't build as fast as he's getting resources, if he's doing a good job you may want only him so everyone else can get fades more quickly.
Now, going back to containment after that gorge digression (I apologize, but bad gorges are terrible and there's no way to kick them out like a commander (which there really should be.) After the gorge is picked everyone else should rush the marine spawn immediately, as quickly as they can. Kill everything that looks tasty and avoids marine fire, don't let up on that bite button. No one should be going to the hives, no one should be going anywhere but where the marines are. This is what skulks should ALWAYS do.
As a skulk, you're buying time for your gorge to put up a hive. You do this by hitting marines wherever they are, you never defend. ALIENS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR DEFENSE, THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR OFFENSE. By constantly attacking the marine spawn, it will be clear when marines leave and where they are going. If two marines start heading off toward a hive, then inform your team immediately. At that point, skulks should split into two groups, one should attack the hive and the other should attack the spawn. In this way, marines are constantly kept busy just dealing with the aliens and will find it hard to secure their position. Once they have secured their position, you're dead aliens.
Although aliens only need two hives for victory, it is extremely necessary for them to make getting even a single hive difficult for marines. If the aliens ever let the marines get anything easily, then they will lose the game. Once the marines have one hive secured, it's there turn to start pushing YOU. Once they're pushing you, you've lost the battle. Now you're playing NS there way, and you're screwed.
This is true over any point that the marines are trying to control. One game, the marines had moved into a seemingly innocuous but central position, the mess hall. I reported with alarm that they had begun building there, and had several marines. One of my teammates responded that the mess hall "wasn't really important," as if we could just let it go. He was an idiot. As an alien your duty is to purge the marines from ANY AND ALL footholds that they might hope to gain. The mess hall, if the marines are trying to take it, is the most important place on the map. Your job is to destroy the marines plans whatever they might be or however seemingly unimportant and stupid. Plus, if you're not attacking the mess hall, what are you doing? You better be attacking their spawn. Skulks should always be attacking where the marines are. Ideally, as a skulk, you have the same life expectancy as a lieutenant in an LZ during Vietnam: 8 seconds.
There are many gorge guides for how to be effective, but if the skulks are pushing the marines and making life difficult for them, you should have almost complete run off the map between your hive and whichever hive is farthest from the marine team. A decent gorge should put up the rezz closest to his hive, then a second, then build a d tower, then a third, then another d tower, then a fourth, then the hive. The second d tower is optional, and depends more on the desires of your skulks. Like a commander, a gorge is responsible for mediating between the actual needs of his team and their spiritual needs. A second d tower is (statistically speaking) almost worthless to your team of skulks, but it makes them happier, which is invaluable.
Skulks the most vital thing for your is to realize that your score and life are meaningless. If you have to eat a turret factory and in the process will be gunned down horribly, do it. Killing a turret factory is much more important than killing a marine. Remember if the marine team has more than one rezz, they have one rezz too many. The best alien teams will even destroy the marine rezz in their base (they are almost always well positioned for snacking on) since without resources marines lose their beloved ability to continuously upgrade and build, there two strengths over marines.
By using this method of constant pushing marine teams will fail.
Hopefully, I will now no longer have to shout at the idiots who get into a hive at start, declare it clear, and then say they need a gorge there 5 seconds after the game has started. The gorge doesn't want to be in a hive 5 seconds after the game has started, what's he going to do!? He'll just have to leave to set up rezz towers elsewhere anyway. Plus, now you're just wasting your time as a skulk. The worst case where this happened was when I was a gorge. By refusing to come to the hive, the skulk there decided that he would become a gorge (this was before we had a single rezz up, I had 13 resources!) I immediately quit the game. I know that wasn't the nicest thing for me to do, but I'm not going to put up with that level of incompetence.
Anyway, I also hope that this has been instructive for even you veteran players and serves to give you a sense of the greater strategy you've been using all this time. You guys are what makes NS worth playing. Good luck and happy hunting.
But I digress. The purpose of this post is to acquaint everyone with the vital dynamics of the Kharaa and Marine teams which so many neglect and are absolutely necessary for victory. I can't think of how I've shouted at people for being idiots, only to have them eventually cause my team to lose. So, without furtuer ado, I present the philosophy inherent to the teams of NS.
Marines: As a marine your job is to identify points of contention and control them, much the way European warfare was conducted pre-Napoleon. Although in Europe points of contention eventually became outdated as fortresses were outgunned by larger, better equipped armies, the aliens of NS do not have this luxury. Thus, by controlling the points of contention on any given map, marines will have victory.
The most obvious and important points of contention are the three alien hives. It should be clear to even the newest of players (although some of them still don't get this) that withouth control of these points the marines will suffer a quick defeat. With control of only one hive, it is vital that marines be actively fighting over the second, and if the aliens do manage to get it up, marines must have heavy armor and hmgs to be able to compete. Otherwise, fades will demolish them easily.
So then, how should commanders and marines work together to secure the hives? At the start of the game the majority of the marines should be building. On an average team of 10, 6 should be. The four other marines should be split into two groups (of 2) and sent to the closest hives to the marine start. There should be an initial alien rush, and after this rush it should be semi-apparent what hive the aliens are using. If not, the commander can always (and should) listen for the alien hive location.
On many of the better servers good marine players will take it on themselves to immediately go out and secure a hive. Oftentimes they will be succesful. The key is to not be satisfied with one hive, which will cause you to beat easily, but to lust for that second hive. You must push both and push them quickly. By claiming the alien's hives, they will begin to assault them instead of your base, thereby relieving pressure. This is ideal, and is why good marine commanders rarely find it useful to put turret factories in their bases. If there is a problem with base assaults and rushes, I strongly recommend building a third or fourth infantry spawn portal instead of a turret factory. This keeps the marine spawn rate up (which makes them happy), and keeps your base well supplied with manpower.
At any time, there should be one person in a hive you control, even after phase gates and a tf has been set up. This is untenable, however, since it is a game and everyone wants a piece of action. Therefore, it is advisable to keep marines operating around the hives, at least a few at a time. That way they may quickly return to relieve a besieged hive. Some commanders may feel that a phase gate accomplishes this, but they are sorely mistaken. It is only too easy to a lerk to subtly peck away at a phase gate, or do it so quickly that only a few marines may gain entrance via the phasegate before the lerk has destroyed it. In these cases, you have usually lost a hive, or at least greatly compromised its security.
Ideally, again, a commander would have two phase gates, but this is also untenable since there is no way to pick which phase gate to arrive at. Thus, an excess of phase gates defeats their value by making marines spend too much time getting where they want to go. One thing to note, however, is that it isn't necessary to build the turret factory and phase gate combination for a hive inside the hive. In fact, it isn't always best to do so. As long as your tf has siege cannons close enough to hit the hive and chokes off a significant point of entry to the hive, it is fine for protecting that location. There's no need to spend extra resources building one inside (although if the area is particularly contentious, this may be desirable.)
While making sure that you're marines are headed to the hives, a commander also has to be directing them to points of contention that choke of routes of access to those hives and making sure that an excess of marines does not form in any given area. For some reasons, marines like to congregate together when they're newer. It's like a convention. This must be prevented at all costs and is something that marines must do more than the commander. A max of three marines is all that a hive should have in it, even if they're waiting for a phase gate. Anymore should take it upon themselves to walk from that hive toward the next one. That way, they're engaging aliens further from the point of contention and reducing the risk to it. They can also alert other marines to what's going on.
Another problem that marines have is the "waiting for backup" and "gimme gimme gimme" syndrome. First, if a commander drops something for you to build- BUILD IT. Maybe it wasn't the best idea, but you're stuck with it. This is especially true if you're in a remote location, far removed from your base. Waiting for more marines to arrive is only going to get you killed and have your precious resources wasted. If the commander wanted you to wait for more men, he wouldn't have built what he did. Remember, your life as a marine is worthlesss. So what if you die? Having you alone next to an unbuilt phase is a commanders worst nightmare. Especially after shouting at you for a minute to get it built, and then having you die because a skulk nailed you. Don't let that happen.
As for "gimme gimme gimme," a good commander operating under this philosophy is going to be moving fast, and his marine team needs to move just as fast. You're wasting valuable seconds everytime you ask for equipment. Also, working on this model of quickly seizing 2 hives, holding them, and sending the other marines to assualt the aliens, your commander is going to using resources constantly for health packs, ammo, and buildings. Later in the game, marines often think they can destroy a hive with a jp and an hmg. I've seen it done many times. Communicate this plan to your commander and he should give you what you require. Newbs ask for equipment because they like using it, veteran players ask for equipment because they have a purpose. Otherwise they get the hell out of base and into the field where they might do some good!
A final note to this discussion are resources. Resources are the lifeblood of the marine team, obviously, and obtaining them is vital. When hives are controlled they gurantee a steady influx of resources, and working from this model the first resource nodes should be built in the hives right after phase gates are up. As the game continues, however, the best way to build resource nodes is for the marines to be proactive. When marines spot an open rezz point, they should communicate to their commander that they can put it up, and ask if the commander would like them to wait for a rezz at that location. This way, rezzes are put up dynamically based upon how the battle is going, guranteeing that they are built in safe locations without wasting the commanders time by ordering marines to places. This also fosters a spirit of cooperation between marines and commanders.
By controlling the hives on a map and pushing the choke points, marines will be victorious. The trick is to keep up the pressure on the aliens by making them come to points you control A, and by pushing their own points of contention B. As a marine team, you upgrade constantly. By holding two hives and upgrading, aliens have no recourse. Thus, the game marines play is inherently defense oriented. You're buying time by locking the aliens out of their hives.
Kharaa: Alright. The Kharaa are more complex than the marines since they don't have a commander. As such, every member of the Kharaa team has to communicate well and be aware of what's going on throughout the battlefield. If you're a newb and you're playing Kharaa, you're in for the ride of your life. The best advice I can give you is to follow your friends, and never go gorge.
While the marines play a defensive game based upon points of contention, the Kharaa HAVE NO POINTS OF CONTENTION. This concept is the most vital ideal that a Kharaa team can have, and anyone thinking otherwise will result in the defeat of the team. Now, the above statement may seem slightly ridiculous. After all, aren't hives points of contention? While they most certainly are for marines, a point of contention implies that having control over the area gives you a strategic advantage. Having control over a hive (without actually having a hive in there, of course) does nothing for an alien team.
Many lesser players will rush into the hives at the start of the game and pronounce them "clear." This is obvious, you idiots. They will then remain in the hives, waiting for marines. This is brazen stupidity. If, as Kharaa, you try to play the same game as marines, acting defensively over points of contention, you have already lost. Sitting in a clear hive as a skulk is the worst thing you can do. You're costing your team a potentially valuable member.
The key to Kharaa gameplay is not points of contention, but what is it? Containment. At the start of a game a gorge should be chosen and there should be only one gorge. A decent gorge acting alone will put a hive up in about 5-8 minutes. It is important that there be only one gorge to start, however, as putting up the first few resource towers is his most important action. If he deems it fit for there to be a second gorge, then he WILL ASK FOR ONE. Remember, being a gorge is a GREAT respsonsibilty and affects your entire team, making it harder for them to get the resources they need to evolve. Even if one gorge can't build as fast as he's getting resources, if he's doing a good job you may want only him so everyone else can get fades more quickly.
Now, going back to containment after that gorge digression (I apologize, but bad gorges are terrible and there's no way to kick them out like a commander (which there really should be.) After the gorge is picked everyone else should rush the marine spawn immediately, as quickly as they can. Kill everything that looks tasty and avoids marine fire, don't let up on that bite button. No one should be going to the hives, no one should be going anywhere but where the marines are. This is what skulks should ALWAYS do.
As a skulk, you're buying time for your gorge to put up a hive. You do this by hitting marines wherever they are, you never defend. ALIENS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR DEFENSE, THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR OFFENSE. By constantly attacking the marine spawn, it will be clear when marines leave and where they are going. If two marines start heading off toward a hive, then inform your team immediately. At that point, skulks should split into two groups, one should attack the hive and the other should attack the spawn. In this way, marines are constantly kept busy just dealing with the aliens and will find it hard to secure their position. Once they have secured their position, you're dead aliens.
Although aliens only need two hives for victory, it is extremely necessary for them to make getting even a single hive difficult for marines. If the aliens ever let the marines get anything easily, then they will lose the game. Once the marines have one hive secured, it's there turn to start pushing YOU. Once they're pushing you, you've lost the battle. Now you're playing NS there way, and you're screwed.
This is true over any point that the marines are trying to control. One game, the marines had moved into a seemingly innocuous but central position, the mess hall. I reported with alarm that they had begun building there, and had several marines. One of my teammates responded that the mess hall "wasn't really important," as if we could just let it go. He was an idiot. As an alien your duty is to purge the marines from ANY AND ALL footholds that they might hope to gain. The mess hall, if the marines are trying to take it, is the most important place on the map. Your job is to destroy the marines plans whatever they might be or however seemingly unimportant and stupid. Plus, if you're not attacking the mess hall, what are you doing? You better be attacking their spawn. Skulks should always be attacking where the marines are. Ideally, as a skulk, you have the same life expectancy as a lieutenant in an LZ during Vietnam: 8 seconds.
There are many gorge guides for how to be effective, but if the skulks are pushing the marines and making life difficult for them, you should have almost complete run off the map between your hive and whichever hive is farthest from the marine team. A decent gorge should put up the rezz closest to his hive, then a second, then build a d tower, then a third, then another d tower, then a fourth, then the hive. The second d tower is optional, and depends more on the desires of your skulks. Like a commander, a gorge is responsible for mediating between the actual needs of his team and their spiritual needs. A second d tower is (statistically speaking) almost worthless to your team of skulks, but it makes them happier, which is invaluable.
Skulks the most vital thing for your is to realize that your score and life are meaningless. If you have to eat a turret factory and in the process will be gunned down horribly, do it. Killing a turret factory is much more important than killing a marine. Remember if the marine team has more than one rezz, they have one rezz too many. The best alien teams will even destroy the marine rezz in their base (they are almost always well positioned for snacking on) since without resources marines lose their beloved ability to continuously upgrade and build, there two strengths over marines.
By using this method of constant pushing marine teams will fail.
Hopefully, I will now no longer have to shout at the idiots who get into a hive at start, declare it clear, and then say they need a gorge there 5 seconds after the game has started. The gorge doesn't want to be in a hive 5 seconds after the game has started, what's he going to do!? He'll just have to leave to set up rezz towers elsewhere anyway. Plus, now you're just wasting your time as a skulk. The worst case where this happened was when I was a gorge. By refusing to come to the hive, the skulk there decided that he would become a gorge (this was before we had a single rezz up, I had 13 resources!) I immediately quit the game. I know that wasn't the nicest thing for me to do, but I'm not going to put up with that level of incompetence.
Anyway, I also hope that this has been instructive for even you veteran players and serves to give you a sense of the greater strategy you've been using all this time. You guys are what makes NS worth playing. Good luck and happy hunting.
Comments
Even better than the new players forum, have something similar the first time you run the game, and make people check boxes after every 3 words to prove they have read it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, there is some anger there. But it's tempered... kind of. Sometimes all those new players need is a kick in the pants.
Go for it.
It's a little long for "new players." Apart from n00bs, wouldn't most newbies understand about 1/2 of what you typed after playing a few games?
There's definatly more than 1 way to beat the kharaa, and hive lock downs is mearly ONE of them.
Still all valid points.
Edit>
Scratch that afew choice passages which are not valid:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When marines spot an open rezz point, they should communicate to their commander that they can put it up, and ask if the commander would like them to wait for a rezz at that location. This way, rezzes are put up dynamically based upon how the battle is going, guranteeing that they are built in safe locations without wasting the commanders time by ordering marines to places. This also fosters a spirit of cooperation between marines and commanders.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh?
If a marine has wonderd off to some random place on the map on his own.. You're suggesting that this marine should then sit there without cover (or the ability to see motion tracking) and build a res node.. How on EARTH does the fact that a marine has rambo'ed to a place garuntee that its a safe place for him to sit there makign a racket building.
Why not have the com order people to areas of low traffic (as observed by MT) and build nodes there..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->rush the marine spawn immediately, as quickly as they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is pure suisidal folly.
Its utter numpty-like stratagy.
If you all rush the marine spawn, (without carapice) and if they HAPPEN to be waiting for you (which they should) then you've just lost your intire team.. For possibly 1-5 seconds added to their build time.. I mean if you fail to kill any buildings (which is likley) you're achiving basically NOTHING and because you've all died and are now sitting around twiddling your thumbs in the res que you've also handed the marines the map on a plate, you can offer NO resistance, NO ambushes nothing to stop them..
A much better stratagy is to have groups of skulks camping in choke points outside the marine base while one skulk completes a sweep of the hives. (incase one of the marines went their directly from spawn out of an exit far from your hive).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks should always be attacking where the marines are. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes thats right Sun Tzu had it all wrong, ATTACK WHERE THEY ARE STRONG!!! *sigh*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A decent gorge should put up the rezz closest to his hive, then a second, then build a d tower, then a third, then another d tower, then a fourth, then the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I belive the current popular build orders are:
1Gorge:
R-D-D-D-R-R-H
R-R-R-H-D-D-D
3Gorge:
1 D each
2 go skulk
R-R-R-H
Some people do
1Gorge
D-D-D-R-R-R-H
Haven't done the tests but I belive this bearly faster than the R-D-D-D method on the speed at which the 3rd (and most important) def chamber comes up, it certainly slows you down significantly later on.
BlueGhost
Excellent points. Like I said in my original post there are many guides to being a gorge and I didn't want to be comprehensive, but I merely included that one as something I've seen work and seems to be a nice balance. It isn't meant as a complete endorsement.
As far as marines "ramboing," merely communicating to your commander that you're by an open resource point (a matter of seconds) and asking him what he'd like you to do is often how resource points are created. Furthermore, as I stated, it creates a feeling of working with your marines, instead of directing them. It's also nice that the marine commander doesn't have to tell his men to go to a resource node, but can direct them to a strategic position and they will know to pause for about a second at nodes along the way. I didn't mean it as a policy to use to the exclusion of everything else as far as resources are concerned, just an ideal format for their dynamic creation.
Concerning the initial rush, marine teams often are not prepared for the initial rush, as much as they should be. I've been on Kharaa teams that have won thanks to an initial rush. If the marines are guarding their base well, this should be apparent quickly and will allow for the other skulks to regroup and form up outside the marine spawn appropriately. A Kharaa rush is a highly effective tactic when employed properly.
To your last point regarding how skulks should always attack where the marines are (and your quote from Sun Tzu), Sun Tzu meant that you should attack an enemy where he is vulnerable, not that you should avoid him. By constantly attacking marines I am not advocating that skulks should rush the most well-defended portion of the map, but rather they should find important targets and focus on them as groups. How else are they to defeat the marines? If they didn't try and retake hives or rush the marine spawn, are they simply to wait to ambush marines? That kind of defense-oriented gameplay is exactly what this post was meant to deter among the Kharaa as being highly wasteful and not taking full advantage of the Kharaa's unique traits. Like I said in my original post, playing NS that way is playing the way the marine team wants you to. It is they who have the luxury of waiting, because with every second they get stronger unless the aliens are destroying marine structures. The alien team, by contrast, only gets stronger occasionally but in great leaps. Although it may be possible to make those leaps fairly quickly by fighting with a defensive mindset, you are also allowing the marines to upgrade. Also, that type of ambush tactic requires great precision, one mistake can mean that the marines will have an important hold on the map, something that this strategy is designed to prevent at all costs. By constantly attacking, there is no breather where the marines can gather in strength.
Obviously there is more than one way to play NS, and there are of course a variety of tactics that will work for both sides, but I think this one has a great deal of strengths. Everything must be realized as not absolute, but only guidelines. Occasionally, of course, a skulk must be sent to check questionable hives to see if the marines are there and call in an offensive, but these occasions usually arrive organically. I hope that answers a few more questions people have.
As you can see, I'm pretty new to posting, but I'll see if I can't figure out how to ask a moderator to move my post, thanks for your advice. I'm glad that my above post makes you feel that most people would understand the majority of it after a few games, that means that it is what players emulate. I am merely trying to put good tactics into their context into a greater philosophy of NS. As such, veteran players who read my post should feel as if they're reading the obvious, because it is obvious, but maybe they'll find something new or think about their tactics in a new way. New players who come across it will perhaps gain a greater understanding to the importance of team dynamics and general gameplay and then come to realize these tenets on their own. Thank you for the nice compliment!
Sorry I didn't include you in the above post, but thank you for your encouragement and advice as well. All of this commentary/criticism is much appreciated and, I think, very helpful.
Saying that u can still get lucky.
eg.
Rambo goes to hive and hides outside until i can drop him a PG then we phase and win. yay
As a marine, I very often volunteer to be the man left behind on defense. After the initial rush I generally see 1 skulk every 10 minutes, which I can handle. If there was a squad of skulks, maybe a third of the team, that continuously harassed me in base, then the commander would either have to build a tf and turrets or dedicate one or even two more men to base defense. Doing so would definately slow down marine expansion.
It seems like a fairly obvious tactic but it hardly ever happens (at least where I play). As I said earlier, good advice, laclen.
Too bad the only people who will read it are the ones who already know all this <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Most "newbs" won't bother reading anything! They won't even read the manual or the F.A.Qs.
They don't even know this forum exists.
They start the game and say they want to become Onos....
This is why you need to find key servers where good players stick to and play there often.
I would also like to add:
-In the begining of the game, DO NOT ASK FOR MEDPACKS OR AMMO. The commander has NO ressoureces to WASTE on your meaningless life. You can ask, and if he deems you are at a worthy position (or he pities you), then you will get healed. If not, go get killed and stop bothering him.
-NEVER ASK FOR AMMO IF A PHASE GATE IS CLOSE TO YOU! Walk up to that phase gate, use it and go get refilled at the armory in your Base!
-Do not ask for a welder if you don't know how to use it. Welders are used to repair your teammates (heal them in a way), repair buildings, destroy webbing and close / open doors and vents.
-As a marine, use your KNIFE or WELDER to destroy alien structures.
-As a marine, shoot distant foes with your PISTOL.
-As an alien, if you have enough ressources and you are at a ressource node, ask the current gorge if he wants you to "cap it" and degorge after. If he's busy, you're helping the team out alot!
-As the commander, LEARN HOW TO USE THE DISTRESS BEACON!
-Do NOT stay at base waiting for equipment. Ask your commander once, then twice, then continue on your merry way. If he has ressources to spend on you, he will, if after 60 seconds you're still waiting by the armory, there's something wrong....
Anyways, great job here, just too bad no actual newbies will read it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
An experienced marine team will be able to put the kharaa on the defensive from the start by pressuring their hive or their gorge, full team alien rushes are frowned on by experienced teams. In a pub server, the starting alien rush might be viewed as effective because people believe it has no associated cost. Either you do damage to the marines or you lose nothing. The reality is, by throwing an entire team to its death at the start of the game you back up the horrendous 1 hive respawn queue. A dissorganised pub server team may sit in their base after an alien rush, fearful and on the defensive - but a team that knows what its doing will see a failed alien rush as an opportunity. A failed rush gives the marines immediate map control, and can be used to make a beeline to the alien hive where the marines can then contain the aliens - not the other way around. With 3/4 people spawn camping the hive your base defender is free to cap all the res nodes he wants.
As an alien team, keeping the marines on the defensive is the best scenario you can possibly hope for, but should only ever be expected against a weak marine side. Careful containment should be the key, instead of throwing skulk after skulk to its death, watch the exits of the marine base. When they leave, follow their movements and set up the best group ambush you can manage. This really is the only way to contain a good marine side, if you are constantly offensive you will be beaten back by the marines early game fighting advantage and superior spawn rate. Aliens need 2 hives to compete, there are 3 common scenarios which the aliens will have to react to to ensure they get the 2nd hive:
Marines rushing the starting hive early on, either as a full offensive move, or as distraction/harassment while they take control of the map. If a group of marines reaches your hive you are in trouble, which is why you have to be careful early game. Suicide skulking puts you in the respawn queue and makes it easier for the marines to cross the map, your defence against this has to be organised, and you have to make your lives count.
Marines attempting to lockdown 2 hives. A common pub strat, defending against this requires you to know the movements of the marine team so you can stop them before they have defenses up at the hive. Again, constant attacks on the marine main base leave large numbers of skulks dead, and dead skulks can't see where marines are going, much less stop them. To defend against this you need to know when the marine team leaves the base, and where they are headed, and (possibly using parasite) try to set up an attack enroute. If you don't see where the marines are going untill they already have a phase/TF built, its mostly too late to do anything about it.
Marines capping res nodes and teching with the intention of reaching tech to kill a hive just before/after your 2nd hive is complete. This is a race, you have to delay them by taking down res nodes, at the same time a good marine team will be delaying you by gorge hunting, or rushing your main. You will need to split groups against this, with some people attacking and some defending. Depending on the number of players, marines may have to hold res nodes undefended in order to tech in time. In larger games and maps with double res points, marines may be able to spend res on defending their outposts and still reach tech in time to screw you over. Defending against this with very large teams is exceptionally difficult, and often your only option will be to fight their tech with 1 hive aliens.
I'll mention this again: Aliens taking an offensive stance and containing marines through constant assaults assumes that aliens have some form of fighting or spawning advantage over marines. The problem is it is very much the other way around early game. Pre-carapace, marines beat alien teams in an open fight, spawn faster than aliens, have access to comm dropped health/ammo, have the distress beacon ability that makes it near impossible to spawn camp a good side, while having exception spawn camping ability themselves should they reach an alien hive. The alien vs. marine sterotype is that aliens should be the aggressor and the marines defensive, but in the early stages of NS, it is very much the opposite. Only later, when marines have control of the important areas, or are holding out against 2 hive aliens while they wait on tech, do the marines become defensive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the start of the game the majority of the marines should be building. On an average team of 10, 6 should be. The four other marines should be split into two groups (of 2) and sent to the closest hives to the marine start. There should be an initial alien rush, and after this rush it should be semi-apparent what hive the aliens are using. If not, the commander can always (and should) listen for the alien hive location. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 groups of 2 marines to the other two hives ? If they get there in one piece then either they're FPS/NS gods incarnate or the alien team is of a low quality (re: sucks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). In a team of ten, more like 5 should go to a hive, the other 4 build and defend base and get ready to jump thru PG to hive, as it usually needs reinforcement straight away. Obviously, the exact numbers differ but I would argue that at the least instead of 2 to each hive it should be 4 to one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. By claiming the alien's hives, they will begin to assault them instead of your base, thereby relieving pressure. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A fairly standard Kharaa tactic is to attack the marine base to draw marines back from the hives so it can be attacked or lerked without a human presence there. In fact by claiming 2 hives you often invoke a full team rush on the marine base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there is a problem with base assaults and rushes, I strongly recommend building a third or fourth infantry spawn portal instead of a turret factory<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I winced when I read this. Your relying on marines to die and respawn to defend your base ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> As the first target is usually IPs this is bad, bad advice. Espcially since you advocate extra IPs instead of a TF. IMO of course <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many lesser players will rush into the hives at the start of the game and pronounce them "clear." This is obvious, you idiots<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You rush to the hives. If theres no marines there, you backtrack back to marine spawn until you meet them. If you simply headed for the 'middle' point you risk missing them. Also, in your marine section you say 2 groups of 2 marines should go to each hive. Therefore they will be there to beat this initial mini-rush.
Skulk rushing is SSOOOO 1.01 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> It doesn't work, not at the very start of the game, not as a game winner. Any possible advantages are usually offset by your entire team being dead. Parasite rushing is good however. Little probing attacks are OK, but only intermittedly. A constant stream of skulks will achieve nothing.
Rest of the post I generally agree with. Overalll, no matter what, you should be making the other team react to what your doing, not the other way round.
First one: beginning of game, all marines are building while we rush the base, all die without much resistance, the whole base is gone in a few seconds. Aliens win.
Second one: we try the same tactic again. Big mistake. No-one's building, all marines are crouched next to each other in a line facing the doors. We all get executed almost instantly, marines rush the hive and win.
Lesson: try not to be too predictable.
Of course, some marines never learn and you can sometimes get a newbie marine team five times in a row, in the first minutes, just by rushing. But if they're good, that doesn't work well.
/sob I'm a lesser player <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Actually, I don't care. I WANT TO KNOW THE HIVES ARE CLEAR.
As a marine, I like to take a hive in < 1 minute. As a skulk, I like to know that I am not playing vs my evil twin. As a gorge, I want to know that a skulk has at least been through the area so I don't walk into a mini base.
You say it's obvious? That's exactly the kind of thinking that makes early ninja raids so successful.
Unfortunately, for those of you that specifically mentioned how public servers were different from other (clan?) servers, I've only ever played on public servers. As such, all my experience comes from there and I can't claim to know how things are different on higher-level servers. Thank you for filling in these blanks.
Thanks also for pointing out the valuabe tactic of checking on a location and then heading from that location to a known area of enemy control. This tactic is fantastic for controlling the flow of an enemy team and something that not all players understand.
back in the day of the 1.04 x me and my team of skulks were attacking the main marine base.... well my friend had the bright idea of hiding above the entrance, dropping down like ninjas, decapitating the marines, and munching on the rest of the base.... we wait, wait, wait, think, damn this is gonna be hillarious...
next thing we know *our hive is under attack* we freak out, rush back to find a fat group of marines wasting our hive and us....
needless to say we lost, and lost badly ^_^
then again, I wasnt the gorge, and I claim to be the master gorge of that server, untill an admin got sick of my ability to kick the living crap outta everyone, and banned me for no good reason......
*sigh*
oh well
nice post ^_^
back in the day of the 1.04 x me and my team of skulks were attacking the main marine base.... well my friend had the bright idea of hiding above the entrance, dropping down like ninjas, decapitating the marines, and munching on the rest of the base.... we wait, wait, wait, think, damn this is gonna be hillarious...
next thing we know *our hive is under attack* we freak out, rush back to find a fat group of marines wasting our hive and us....
needless to say we lost, and lost badly ^_^
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That means you did a poor job of containing the marines; you did not watch all the exits. And isn't hiding above the entrance your primary role as a skulk? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->