Whats The Core Balance Problem?
Kadan
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12775Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12775Members
<div class="IPBDescription">My opinions enclosed.</div> This post isn't a rant, or a moan, but should explain the problem flayra faces to those still complaining about the various balance issues, and I hope you'll all take it into concideration
The problem in balancing NS is the <b>huge</b> difference in the teams. So obviously balancing will be a pain in the arse.
Let me give you an example that clearly shows the problem.
In a 12v12, resources for the marines are increased, they can expand faster and teamwork usually works naturally (for most). They can survive off a few resource nodes with a turret every resource turn.
However for aliens, teamwork usually never works on this scale of a game, so the 2-3 skulks vs. 6 marines at a time is an impossible feat for the aliens, especially if the marines simply take over two hives.
You could always make it so resource for aliens is faster, but then for an organised 12v12, aliens will rip through the marines (marines cannot defend both areas, and [6 marines] v [11 carapace 3 skulks] has a clear winner -- the marines would get ripped apart -- tried and tested)
This is the problem (not so blatantly obvious) in smaller clan play vs. public play.
Welcome to flayras problem <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Which I expect is doing his nut in. He hears both ideas from clan play and public play that only end up messing the other one up a little more, causing consequences to further balance changes and so on.
<b>So, what can he do?</b>
If you look deep into the core of the problem, it relies on aliens relying too much on hives, I hear flayra understands this problem already.
There is a post on the suggestion boards (not sure where exactly) but it suggested the idea, aliens can have 1 hive, survive off it completely, it suggests something along the lines of:-
1 hive :- 40 lerk / 70 fade / no onos
2 hives :- 25 lerk / 55 fade / 100 onos
3 hives :- 15 lerk / 45 fade / 80 onos
(Note: the onos at 1200 hit points with carapace 3 is a bit too much in my opinion.)
(Note: As aliens progress in the game, resource nodes allow stock-piling resources, each alien should have a personal cap, once res goes over this, it is 'wasted') - it'd help against the spamming of oc's everywhere also - causing lag.
On public games, every alien knows how to defend the primary hive, since they spawn there.
On clan games, aliens having to solely defend the hive wont be a problem since they can later advance out with fades to get another hive.
Now taking 2 hives is pretty crucial, the 3rd simply gives the aliens something (possibly) better to fight over instead of the marine base. This is where the tactical strategy comes into play thats so needed for clan play. At 2 hives, if you plan on keeping it you can't afford every member of your team stay skulk and go onos.
Discuss.
(P.s. I don't think I insult flayra this time, just explaining why hes had such a hard time with balancing this game.)
The problem in balancing NS is the <b>huge</b> difference in the teams. So obviously balancing will be a pain in the arse.
Let me give you an example that clearly shows the problem.
In a 12v12, resources for the marines are increased, they can expand faster and teamwork usually works naturally (for most). They can survive off a few resource nodes with a turret every resource turn.
However for aliens, teamwork usually never works on this scale of a game, so the 2-3 skulks vs. 6 marines at a time is an impossible feat for the aliens, especially if the marines simply take over two hives.
You could always make it so resource for aliens is faster, but then for an organised 12v12, aliens will rip through the marines (marines cannot defend both areas, and [6 marines] v [11 carapace 3 skulks] has a clear winner -- the marines would get ripped apart -- tried and tested)
This is the problem (not so blatantly obvious) in smaller clan play vs. public play.
Welcome to flayras problem <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Which I expect is doing his nut in. He hears both ideas from clan play and public play that only end up messing the other one up a little more, causing consequences to further balance changes and so on.
<b>So, what can he do?</b>
If you look deep into the core of the problem, it relies on aliens relying too much on hives, I hear flayra understands this problem already.
There is a post on the suggestion boards (not sure where exactly) but it suggested the idea, aliens can have 1 hive, survive off it completely, it suggests something along the lines of:-
1 hive :- 40 lerk / 70 fade / no onos
2 hives :- 25 lerk / 55 fade / 100 onos
3 hives :- 15 lerk / 45 fade / 80 onos
(Note: the onos at 1200 hit points with carapace 3 is a bit too much in my opinion.)
(Note: As aliens progress in the game, resource nodes allow stock-piling resources, each alien should have a personal cap, once res goes over this, it is 'wasted') - it'd help against the spamming of oc's everywhere also - causing lag.
On public games, every alien knows how to defend the primary hive, since they spawn there.
On clan games, aliens having to solely defend the hive wont be a problem since they can later advance out with fades to get another hive.
Now taking 2 hives is pretty crucial, the 3rd simply gives the aliens something (possibly) better to fight over instead of the marine base. This is where the tactical strategy comes into play thats so needed for clan play. At 2 hives, if you plan on keeping it you can't afford every member of your team stay skulk and go onos.
Discuss.
(P.s. I don't think I insult flayra this time, just explaining why hes had such a hard time with balancing this game.)
Comments
You say that blink and swipe are much better, but it's the acid rockets you have a problem with.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is more a player problem rather than a fade based one (IE the aliens don't seem to realize that blink and swipe are much better etc) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acid rocket is far SAFER than Blink/Swipe, especially if you are talking about larger groups of marines, or HMG marines. Much easier to disengage and blink to safety if you are using acid rockets.
Also, regen fades don't really have a choice - they just die REALLY fast to concentrated LMG fire or a HMG.
This is more a player problem rather than a fade based one (IE the aliens don't seem to realize that blink and swipe are much better etc And really the only way around this would be to either swap blink and acid rocket around (So blink is in slot 2 etc) or make the acid rocket behave more like the bile bomb (EG it falls slowly to the ground) Just so the fades can't spam a marine base from the other end of the room like the artillery obsessed maniacs they are.
I think the main issues are that blink is unreliable in certain settings--nobody likes tossing 54 res down the drain because they're stuck within a ladder or a piece of furniture.
The other issue is that the swipe range of the fade is (so I gather) less than the range of the marine knife. You have to be right next to your target to hit them--as far as it applies in meelee combat, that is.
Hmm. Kadan talks about an interesting point. It could make the game alot more fun during a 2 hive lockdown. The phase gate nerfing I believe was meant to remedy this but it is still possible to lock down 2 hives. Personally I think the aliens should be all about the hives. It's their well being. Hives spawn them, heal them, and give them new abilities. If they could get fades they could just turtle up an area of the map (cargo bay on ns_nothing for example) wait for the cash to go fade and then rush the marines. I definately wouldn't want this game to be about turtling. I love the dramatic fights for the hive, from both sides. To me there is nothing better than that point in the game wher the 2nd hive is going up and the marines are pushing to to take it down before the aliens get fades/umbra. It's so exciting.
I think the major thing that has to happen is a rework of the alien upgrade system. Sensory isn't used because if the marines hold 2 hives it wont do you any good. Cloaking can't help you when you have to move toward the enemy. Imagine if you could go for sensory right away and if things went wrong you could change your tactics. It would add a great element to the game. If you realize the marines researched motion tracking respond by getting D chambers instead. This is the popular idea that a hive is never locked to 1 chamber, but you can only get 1 upgrade per hive. So as a 1 hive lerk you have to decide to get carapace or adrenaline. As a gorge do you get adrenaline or redemption?
they made fades weaker at 2 hives, but getting 2 hives in the first place is still very difficult with an unorganised alien team, such a team you find all the time on public servers.
.
The current hive system basically means the aliens must get a second hive within x minutes to advance against the marines upgrades, when marines overtake them by in the tech race (even if it's slowly and surely) it'll be even easier for them to hold 2 hives. Hence the basic prediction and common tactics we see in most games result from this.
Maybe make onos a little weaker and make it available with 2 hives as you said...
First hive fades costing 70 res could be a problem since right now only gorges can gain so much res.
And if you increase the maximum res for skulks, then the res-pool is useless.
Nice idea, but it is never done.
Instead od weak marines versus 2 and 3 hive aliens or vice versa, I'd like to see more fade/onos alien armies clashing with HA/HMG marines in sort of a Upper Tech Late Game style battles. THe kind of stuff you see in your favorite rts games after enough time has passed.
As it stands now, when either team gets late game equipment, it's pretty much the swansong for the other team.
So if there were anyway to achieve the above, it would really make things more enjoyable for me. I suppose resources would have to come in fast at a certain point so people could continually afford fade/onos and ha/hmg-gl.