I don't think motion tracking is cheap. Notice the name, MOTION TRACKING. It encourages stalking by skulks and stuff; if you're still, it won't see you. Besides, the aliens have even better radar stuff (the hive sight.)
Also, it's not lag that causes the blip to stay there. It updates every second or so, just like a real radar, which has to make rotations. So that's why it stays still for awhile. If it just followed the aliens, then yes, that WOULD be cheap. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe the blip cycle should be extended from about a second (about what it is now) to 5 seconds or so. Then TSA would only have an IDEA where the aliens are, coz in 5 seconds, you can move a long way as a skulk...
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--SirLamer+Jan 25 2003, 02:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SirLamer @ Jan 25 2003, 02:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think motion tracking is cheap. Notice the name, MOTION TRACKING. It encourages stalking by skulks and stuff; if you're still, it won't see you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As currently implemented, Motion Tracking is about 99% wallhack. It doesn't encourage ambush. It makes ambush impossible, as it has to be a marine with a seriously short attention span to forget about the motion tracking blip ahead. An alien team that doesn't move is basically dead anyhow.
Also, note that MT doesn't scan once a second. It UPDATES once per second. So even if you moved when the observatory wasn't looking in your direction, it will still put up a blip on you. So there is no way to move and not show up on the motion tracker.
I also find MT to turn things around. I don't have to worry about being ambushed, as I know where all the aliens are. Rather, I'm the guy that waits around the corner, waiting to ambush the hapless skulk/gorge moving towards me.
Kinda breaks the mood.
Adding scan restrictions so aliens are not always detected when moving would be nice. Even nicer would be to give a notice to aliens when they are in the motion scan. Skillful aliens could then stalk by timing their movements.
I dont see motion tracking as a big deal. As a marine, it kinda helps but its not like it wins games. And from the story point of view, with all the nano tech and systems in a ship to view tracking etc etc (all that futuristic stuff), its not out of place in game and makes sense. And remember thats all the marines get for having a clue as to where anything is. Aliens see everything, friendlys, hosties, bases, The marine sees whats in front of him. Im behind the idea that aliens should have some way to avoid being tracked (some type of special cloaking or upgrade perhaps).
1)Motion Tracking should track all motion, aliens and marines alike (possibly even doors/lifts etc, if possible) 2) Should only be in observatory range. (Which would be reduced to that of the 1.01 siege cannon or so) 3)When observatory goes down, you lose motion tracking in that area. You dont lose the tech, so rebuilding an observatory will bring it back. 4) Reduce observatory cost from 25 to 20 or so, to encourage more front line observatories.
Ranged observatories and blips go away when observ. goes down. And instead of just tracking marines, it should track marines also, make you wonder, is that a guy on my team, or a big bad skulk ready to rip my stomach out?
<!--QuoteBegin--Proclaimed_Messiah+Jan 25 2003, 06:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Proclaimed_Messiah @ Jan 25 2003, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aliens see everything, friendlys, hosties, bases, The marine sees whats in front of him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's so NOT true, marines are the ones who see almost everything (every alien on the map and hives).
Aliens only see on hive sight what is within other aliens LOS, and parasited marines/structures.
What's more beneficial to see, your teammates or your enemies?
i agree once you have motion tarckkng you can't rush anything, there no advantage for the aliens when you have motion tracking they know exactly where you are - it needs to e down graded.
As I see it, the basic pro and con of motion tracking is this.
<b>You either A:</b> Pop down a TF and multiple turrets (remember, you're gaining resources while motion tracking is still 'researching' aka ineffective) to defend a hive and move on.
<b>B:</b> Secure one hive, get motion tracking, and rely on your marines to move past skulks.
<b>The problem with A is</b> By the time you spend time to secure a hive, aliens have (if smart) had plenty of unmolested time to secure resources and get in position to defend a push into a second hive position.
<b>The problem with B is:</b> You leave a hive position less defended than if you would have gone with option A. Thus, it will take more marines to guard effectively against a skulk rush at this hive position, leaving less marines moving onto second hive positions. You could ensure a second hive, but you always run the risk of losing the first one.
<b>Fades > Motion Tracking</b> Motion tracking does not defeat fades. Fades are not the definition of 'stealth warriors'. More or less, motion tracking is effective against skulks and lerks alone. Gorgs move slow enough that an astute commander can listen on the map and report/track gorg position to the marines.
<b>Motion Tracking does not render skulks ineffective</b> Motion tracking only becomes 'cheap' when the marines have completely secured two hives AND have full weapons upgrades. Marine gun accuracy is far from 100%, and aliens get level three carp far earlier than marine weapon upgrades. Without upgraded guns, the aliens have an excellent chance of being able to swarm marines with skulks, even with motion tracking on.
Thus, the aliens will have had to mess up a LOT (allowing second hive, allowing excessive marine resource) to let the marines have that position. At that point, it's almost earned. If the marine team is undisciplined and chases skulk blips, the skulks can still run ambushes (waiting on walls) on multiple marines and be able to retake a second hive position.
Plus, with motion tracking, marines are VERY careless. Wouldn't you be, if you thought you had a foolproof wallhack? With motion tracking, checking corners and walls is almost unneccesary for marines - and if the skulks had the discipline to WAIT at strategic positions, it would be very easy to counter motrack-advancing marines.
<b>Motrack's Ridiculous Advantages</b> The facets of motrack that make it questionable:
Positions like Processing on ns_hera are impossible to take back.
Divided positions (like Subspace Hive and Port Engine hive on nancy) are VERY easily defended by a commander who watches blips on his minimap. You can stop a full skulk 'retake' rush by letting your troops know which gate to phase to. (BTW, full carp retake rush vs. unupgraded weapons works very well. Aliens only have to slightly stagger their incoming men and can easily catch an entire marine team reloading.)
<b>Counter</b> My argument, again, however - is that an alien team has a a significant edge on marines early-game with the same level of teamwork that the marines exhibit. The ranged vs. melee argument would work wonderfully if we all had aimbots and 200ammo clips. But in panic situations (read: heavy rush/ambush), marine accuracy with the LMG is often far less than 30%. And effective damage (how many times do you see 5 marines shooting at one skulk?) gives the aliens an even greater advantage.
<b>Ideas for Solutions, and reasons behind</b> 1. Remove motrack from commander minimap. Mapwide motrack allows the marine commander to have complete control of the situation (granted that they're only taking two valuable positions, but that's for another post). There is next to ZERO difficulty for commanders to call a skulk rush to a certain location and for the marines to phase immediately in. And with upgraded weapons, skulks stand no chance.
Either 2. Make motrack a continuously researched ability. This would run like 25~ for 3 minutes of motracking, or whatever figure is required to balance after testing. This would require a sacrifice in turret farming a hot position (processing) vs. being able to see incoming skulks. You couldn't bring up a turret farm in 10 seconds with one marine watching for blips and 5 people building anymore, not to mention resources.
or
3. Make motrack an observatory required ability. Increase the range of observatories and require them within range to have motrack work.
4. Motrack definitely needs to go down when the observatory goes down.
5. Make silence, or some other underused alien ability, decrease the effectiveness of motion tracking (like only showing up once every 10 seconds).
<b>Conclusion</b> Motion tracking is an excellent addition to the game (although it masks the use of real wallhacks). While mostly fair to the game (I've rarely seen motion tracking win the game for an unorganized marine team), there are elements to it that are over the top and need to be decreased - mostly the commander minimap part of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Jan 25 2003, 09:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Jan 25 2003, 09:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Motion tracking is an essential äquivalent to parasite and hivesight. What will you give marines instead of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i already said what marines should get instead..
I dunno. I think my idea is great <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> It makes motion tracking good for trackin motion.. Not pinpoint exactly where an alien is. Another good arguement is that kharaa and frontiersmen are supposed to be different. So why do the marines have something that is superior to hive sight? Lerks should be able to upgrade to hmg strong spikes or something if this is how the game furthers itself. I play on a linux server with no motion tracking and both sides still have great games. I can see the marines gettin a severe advantage when motion works on this server. No more ambushin unless you are camping way ahead of a marine (ie: not scouting around the map like you should be)
i still say take it off <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
motion tracking needs no nerfing, although the front line observatory idea sounds <b>very</b> very nice. might be a **** to code though.
the marines dont need a hive sight, i think it is the comander's job to coordinate the marines anyhow. (even if it did make sense).
Oh yeah, and motion tracking does not make skulks ineffective. Even if they know you are coming, remember it only takes 2 bites to kill an unarmored marine. If you have at least two good skulks (say with caprace, though it isnt as good now), then they still have a good chance of eating you.
Besides, the point is to secure two hives, once that happens marines will need that motion tracking to find out how many seconds they have until they die =p
I think MT should be cut down to simply be a warning that a non-friendly movement has appeared - but it only shows on the minimap, and only with the minimap's range, and more importantly, its lack of clarity.
So the skulk is hiding in a vent - but you don't KNOW that - all you know is that something moved about 5 m in that, 2D direction.
Either that or make the **** cost 100 res <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anybody who says motion tracking is worthless or inferior in anyway should be shot. Maybe some of you outta get a windows server and try it out.
It makes all alien movement known, and like somebody else said: an alien team that just sits around is as good as dead. And how can armor be better than a <b>wall-hack</b>? So you want better protection from being bitten? Motion-tracking won't even let an alien get near you unless he's been camping the spot the whole time. So tracking costs 70 RP... compared to the other build orders that take up all your RP... all nonsense. This is why Flayra outta fix the linux bug pronto to wake people up to reality.
Motion tracking only works within the range of an observatory --- OR short range scanners for individual marines, replaces the pistol much like a welder and is either automatically activated once the marine picks it up, OR can only be activated once the marine "fires" it ---- it should give out a large beeping noise much like a sentry gun alerting the aliens of his presence... what do you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pros/Cons with automatic idea: (pros) No need to activate it, can have your weapon at the ready, doesn't leave you *too* vulenrable. (cons) you beep. loudly. alerting aliens within the same range of the scanning. you can't deactivate it. you're **** out of luck if you're trying to sneak up onto a hive.
Pros/Cons with manual idea: (pros) inspires teamwork -- perhaps one "scanner" per "squad"? the others cover him, *theroy:* he if they're in range of his scanner they get motion tracking ASWEL?! *:theory*, you can deactivate it at any time (lastinv/selecting another weapon). (cons) you're completely vulenrable to attack unless your team mates protect you, they may/should be expensive, thus you shouldnt go on rambo missions, other cons? same as the previous idea really, you beep. loudly. i.e **** out of luck with fades <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
also, perhaps *another* upgrade after you've gotten motion tracking "modules/scanners" for your team, heat tracking? aliens, of course being cold blooded (well whatever) showing up as red, and humans showing up as green? an idea for a friendly MT system.
I do hope you read this flayra, as i've been pondering over this for some time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think (atleast the first idea) would make the game ALOT more atmospheric.... sneaking through passage ways with one of the marines in your squad of 5 beeping... faster... faster... faster... faster BOOM! fade in your face! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> man that could be really good with some of the ambient music you guys have in there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyway, let me know wotcha think <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
motion tracking is fine especially for its cost. It also doesnt really help after a point. hey look we have motion tracking so we see something coming..... oh wait it's a fade and we didnt upgrade anything but motion tracking, so at least we know it's going to kill us before it gets here. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2003
The problem with MT is not its cost. Hell you can make something cost 500RT and almost invincible. I think Flayra would like a <i>simple</i> solution if he is going to change MT. And all that's required is a small nerf. The over-powerfulness of MT is one of the factors that makes Cloacking(which is mediocre at counters MT but better than nothint) much more popular than SoF and Adv.HS
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The problem with MT is not its cost. Hell you can make something cost 500RT and almost invincible. I think Flayra would like a <i>simple</i> solution if he is going to change MT. And all that's required is a small nerf.
I hope the MT debate can be settled after the release of NS1.1, when Flayra will (hopefully) change the chamber/evolution system.
<!--QuoteBegin--Capt. Proton+Jan 25 2003, 01:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Capt. Proton @ Jan 25 2003, 01:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and what? give fox something to sue for? (though I doubt it) I think its fair right now except u still have it after the observatory is gone. It should be out when the obs is down but you shouldint have to research it after if u put it back up.
my 2 cents <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree to the fullest on the idea that it should be gone with the obs.
Hivesight can be considered as the alien balance for the marine commander, NOT hivesight. OK, so its not equivalent, but the point is marines get one player who has a clear overview of the large scale strategic view, while aliens only look at the large scale strategic view is through hivesite. Describing motion tracking as "marine hive sight" is blatently silly. They don't work the same. Except for parasite, hivesite would be usless if you could keep in perfect communication with your teammates. Motion tracking actually provides new information to the marines. I actually think the original idea posted, that only the commander should see motion tracking, is almost very good. The only problem I see is that it widens the gap between public and clan play even more. It would probably make v. little difference to well organised clans at all, since the comander would be able to keep the marines informed with only a few words. But in public games this would not be true. I generally think motion tracking needs to be nerfed in some way. The people who say you can just stay still, or you can still beat marines when they exactly where you are, I think are wrong. I honestly do not see how they can say this if they have any experience playing as a skulk.
As I mentined in another thread, the simple solution is to make MT only visible on the MINI-MAP. That way Marines still get the benefit of MT, but without the EXACT position of the alien. Yuno, make the marine actually need to use some skill to locate the aliens, and add some fun and suspense to the game.
LEAVE <img src='http://masterswordman.home.attbi.com/7.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> alone, the developers won't change a crucial part of the game because some idiots want them off.
P.S. Unrelated, but I smilies fix look different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <img src='http://masterswordman.home.attbi.com/4.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>, I think they did transparency. That's why the there's still some white around them.
Observatory + Motion Tracking Upgrade = Motion Tracking Units
After you research Motion Tracking you have Motion Tracking Units (MTU) available for your marines. The cost is per unit. A MTU gives the marine the Motion Tracking ablility on their Hud. Any teammates within a certain range of the Marine with the MTU will be given Motion Tracking abilities.
I see a couple side of the MT Issue and I think they are all relevent in some way or another. The issues that concern me are teamplay and atmosphere.
I agree, MT gives marines with better reflexes a powerful tool which they could utilize for more DM style play (Bad) which may give newer NS player the idea that going solo is acceptable (Bad). MT can impact Teamplay negatively which I dislike.
Without a doubt a game without MT is far more suspenseful. Knowing the approximate location of an enemy really spoils that suspense for me. However I do agree that MT is an invaluable tool for Marines and total removal shouldn't be considered.
I hope my MTU idea makes MT a little more interesting with the introduction of teamplay elements and a limiting factor of having to spend RP for individual MTUs.
My quick vote of support. Motion tracking as it is, does significantly lower the enjoyment, excitement of the game.
First Suggestion: Motion tracking limited to Observatory range, at least 5 Observatories needed to cover the entire map. Observatory should also supply commander with Tracking, if it doesn't already.
This would make the battlefield more diverse, as aliens will have another buildings to kill other than Factories and Gates. Furthermore, it would be cool to see Marines build them in dark corners, and then just leave, using them as scouts.
Second (I like this one alot more): Make the "Friendly Tracker", remove Motion Tracking of enemies altogether. This seems more realistic and in tune with the stated design philosophies of NS. That is, Marines are supposed to work as a team. Forcing the CO to constantly give waypoints to individual marines so that they can regroup with teammates is a waste of time. The Marine game is already too overloaded with voice spam, requests for waypoints, and so forth. The Marines should be getting a built-in Friendly Tracker, or a really cheap upgrade option. Name indicators and armor status attached to the tracking icons would be great too. Again, this seems more logical in military technological development than Enemy Only Tracking.
The Aliens should be the ones WITHOUT a Friendly Tracker, if anyone, as it follows NS's statement that Alien players are supposed to be "lone wolves". Personally I think both sides need Friendly Trackers, it encourages teamwork, reduces voice spam, etc etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--Go7+Feb 9 2003, 10:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Go7 @ Feb 9 2003, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Second (I like this one alot more): Make the "Friendly Tracker", remove Motion Tracking of enemies altogether. This seems more realistic and in tune with the stated design philosophies of NS. That is, Marines are supposed to work as a team. Forcing the CO to constantly give waypoints to individual marines so that they can regroup with teammates is a waste of time. The Marine game is already too overloaded with voice spam, requests for waypoints, and so forth. The Marines should be getting a built-in Friendly Tracker, or a really cheap upgrade option. Name indicators and armor status attached to the tracking icons would be great too. Again, this seems more logical in military technological development than Enemy Only Tracking.
The Aliens should be the ones WITHOUT a Friendly Tracker, if anyone, as it follows NS's statement that Alien players are supposed to be "lone wolves". Personally I think both sides need Friendly Trackers, it encourages teamwork, reduces voice spam, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh-heh.
I feel the same way. I don't know why more Teamplayer games don't have a Friend Indicator.
MT is good as is now... Maybe a second upgrade (spending more resources) for friendly tracking would be nice... But i'm happy about the way MT is now...
Comments
Also, it's not lag that causes the blip to stay there. It updates every second or so, just like a real radar, which has to make rotations. So that's why it stays still for awhile. If it just followed the aliens, then yes, that WOULD be cheap. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As currently implemented, Motion Tracking is about 99% wallhack. It doesn't encourage ambush. It makes ambush impossible, as it has to be a marine with a seriously short attention span to forget about the motion tracking blip ahead. An alien team that doesn't move is basically dead anyhow.
Also, note that MT doesn't scan once a second. It UPDATES once per second. So even if you moved when the observatory wasn't looking in your direction, it will still put up a blip on you. So there is no way to move and not show up on the motion tracker.
I also find MT to turn things around. I don't have to worry about being ambushed, as I know where all the aliens are. Rather, I'm the guy that waits around the corner, waiting to ambush the hapless skulk/gorge moving towards me.
Kinda breaks the mood.
Adding scan restrictions so aliens are not always detected when moving would be nice. Even nicer would be to give a notice to aliens when they are in the motion scan. Skillful aliens could then stalk by timing their movements.
Oh well, it's not a biggie, really.
2) Should only be in observatory range. (Which would be reduced to that of the 1.01 siege cannon or so)
3)When observatory goes down, you lose motion tracking in that area. You dont lose the tech, so rebuilding an observatory will bring it back.
4) Reduce observatory cost from 25 to 20 or so, to encourage more front line observatories.
That's so NOT true, marines are the ones who see almost everything (every alien on the map and hives).
Aliens only see on hive sight what is within other aliens LOS, and parasited marines/structures.
What's more beneficial to see, your teammates or your enemies?
What will you give marines instead of that?
zippy
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>You either A:</b>
Pop down a TF and multiple turrets (remember, you're gaining resources while motion tracking is still 'researching' aka ineffective) to defend a hive and move on.
<b>B:</b>
Secure one hive, get motion tracking, and rely on your marines to move past skulks.
<b>The problem with A is</b>
By the time you spend time to secure a hive, aliens have (if smart) had plenty of unmolested time to secure resources and get in position to defend a push into a second hive position.
<b>The problem with B is:</b>
You leave a hive position less defended than if you would have gone with option A. Thus, it will take more marines to guard effectively against a skulk rush at this hive position, leaving less marines moving onto second hive positions. You could ensure a second hive, but you always run the risk of losing the first one.
<b>Fades > Motion Tracking</b>
Motion tracking does not defeat fades. Fades are not the definition of 'stealth warriors'. More or less, motion tracking is effective against skulks and lerks alone. Gorgs move slow enough that an astute commander can listen on the map and report/track gorg position to the marines.
<b>Motion Tracking does not render skulks ineffective</b>
Motion tracking only becomes 'cheap' when the marines have completely secured two hives AND have full weapons upgrades. Marine gun accuracy is far from 100%, and aliens get level three carp far earlier than marine weapon upgrades. Without upgraded guns, the aliens have an excellent chance of being able to swarm marines with skulks, even with motion tracking on.
Thus, the aliens will have had to mess up a LOT (allowing second hive, allowing excessive marine resource) to let the marines have that position. At that point, it's almost earned. If the marine team is undisciplined and chases skulk blips, the skulks can still run ambushes (waiting on walls) on multiple marines and be able to retake a second hive position.
Plus, with motion tracking, marines are VERY careless. Wouldn't you be, if you thought you had a foolproof wallhack? With motion tracking, checking corners and walls is almost unneccesary for marines - and if the skulks had the discipline to WAIT at strategic positions, it would be very easy to counter motrack-advancing marines.
<b>Motrack's Ridiculous Advantages</b>
The facets of motrack that make it questionable:
Positions like Processing on ns_hera are impossible to take back.
Divided positions (like Subspace Hive and Port Engine hive on nancy) are VERY easily defended by a commander who watches blips on his minimap. You can stop a full skulk 'retake' rush by letting your troops know which gate to phase to. (BTW, full carp retake rush vs. unupgraded weapons works very well. Aliens only have to slightly stagger their incoming men and can easily catch an entire marine team reloading.)
<b>Counter</b>
My argument, again, however - is that an alien team has a a significant edge on marines early-game with the same level of teamwork that the marines exhibit. The ranged vs. melee argument would work wonderfully if we all had aimbots and 200ammo clips. But in panic situations (read: heavy rush/ambush), marine accuracy with the LMG is often far less than 30%. And effective damage (how many times do you see 5 marines shooting at one skulk?) gives the aliens an even greater advantage.
<b>Ideas for Solutions, and reasons behind</b>
1. Remove motrack from commander minimap. Mapwide motrack allows the marine commander to have complete control of the situation (granted that they're only taking two valuable positions, but that's for another post). There is next to ZERO difficulty for commanders to call a skulk rush to a certain location and for the marines to phase immediately in. And with upgraded weapons, skulks stand no chance.
Either
2. Make motrack a continuously researched ability. This would run like 25~ for 3 minutes of motracking, or whatever figure is required to balance after testing. This would require a sacrifice in turret farming a hot position (processing) vs. being able to see incoming skulks. You couldn't bring up a turret farm in 10 seconds with one marine watching for blips and 5 people building anymore, not to mention resources.
or
3. Make motrack an observatory required ability. Increase the range of observatories and require them within range to have motrack work.
4. Motrack definitely needs to go down when the observatory goes down.
5. Make silence, or some other underused alien ability, decrease the effectiveness of motion tracking (like only showing up once every 10 seconds).
<b>Conclusion</b>
Motion tracking is an excellent addition to the game (although it masks the use of real wallhacks). While mostly fair to the game (I've rarely seen motion tracking win the game for an unorganized marine team), there are elements to it that are over the top and need to be decreased - mostly the commander minimap part of it.
What will you give marines instead of that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i already said what marines should get instead..
I dunno. I think my idea is great <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> It makes motion tracking good for trackin motion.. Not pinpoint exactly where an alien is. Another good arguement is that kharaa and frontiersmen are supposed to be different. So why do the marines have something that is superior to hive sight? Lerks should be able to upgrade to hmg strong spikes or something if this is how the game furthers itself. I play on a linux server with no motion tracking and both sides still have great games. I can see the marines gettin a severe advantage when motion works on this server. No more ambushin unless you are camping way ahead of a marine (ie: not scouting around the map like you should be)
i still say take it off <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
the marines dont need a hive sight, i think it is the comander's job to coordinate the marines anyhow. (even if it did make sense).
Oh yeah, and motion tracking does not make skulks ineffective. Even if they know you are coming, remember it only takes 2 bites to kill an unarmored marine. If you have at least two good skulks (say with caprace, though it isnt as good now), then they still have a good chance of eating you.
Besides, the point is to secure two hives, once that happens marines will need that motion tracking to find out how many seconds they have until they die =p
So the skulk is hiding in a vent - but you don't KNOW that - all you know is that something moved about 5 m in that, 2D direction.
Either that or make the **** cost 100 res <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
It makes all alien movement known, and like somebody else said: an alien team that just sits around is as good as dead. And how can armor be better than a <b>wall-hack</b>? So you want better protection from being bitten? Motion-tracking won't even let an alien get near you unless he's been camping the spot the whole time. So tracking costs 70 RP... compared to the other build orders that take up all your RP... all nonsense. This is why Flayra outta fix the linux bug pronto to wake people up to reality.
Motion tracking only works within the range of an observatory --- OR short range scanners for individual marines, replaces the pistol much like a welder and is either automatically activated once the marine picks it up, OR can only be activated once the marine "fires" it ---- it should give out a large beeping noise much like a sentry gun alerting the aliens of his presence... what do you think? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pros/Cons with automatic idea: (pros) No need to activate it, can have your weapon at the ready, doesn't leave you *too* vulenrable. (cons) you beep. loudly. alerting aliens within the same range of the scanning. you can't deactivate it. you're **** out of luck if you're trying to sneak up onto a hive.
Pros/Cons with manual idea: (pros) inspires teamwork -- perhaps one "scanner" per "squad"? the others cover him, *theroy:* he if they're in range of his scanner they get motion tracking ASWEL?! *:theory*, you can deactivate it at any time (lastinv/selecting another weapon). (cons) you're completely vulenrable to attack unless your team mates protect you, they may/should be expensive, thus you shouldnt go on rambo missions, other cons? same as the previous idea really, you beep. loudly. i.e **** out of luck with fades <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
also, perhaps *another* upgrade after you've gotten motion tracking "modules/scanners" for your team, heat tracking? aliens, of course being cold blooded (well whatever) showing up as red, and humans showing up as green? an idea for a friendly MT system.
I do hope you read this flayra, as i've been pondering over this for some time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think (atleast the first idea) would make the game ALOT more atmospheric.... sneaking through passage ways with one of the marines in your squad of 5 beeping... faster... faster... faster... faster BOOM! fade in your face! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
man that could be really good with some of the ambient music you guys have in there <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyway, let me know wotcha think <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think Flayra would like a <i>simple</i> solution if he is going to change MT. And all that's required is a small nerf.
The over-powerfulness of MT is one of the factors that makes Cloacking(which is mediocre at counters MT but better than nothint) much more popular than SoF and Adv.HS
I think Flayra would like a <i>simple</i> solution if he is going to change MT. And all that's required is a small nerf.
I hope the MT debate can be settled after the release of NS1.1, when Flayra will (hopefully) change the chamber/evolution system.
my 2 cents <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to the fullest on the idea that it should be gone with the obs.
I actually think the original idea posted, that only the commander should see motion tracking, is almost very good. The only problem I see is that it widens the gap between public and clan play even more. It would probably make v. little difference to well organised clans at all, since the comander would be able to keep the marines informed with only a few words. But in public games this would not be true.
I generally think motion tracking needs to be nerfed in some way. The people who say you can just stay still, or you can still beat marines when they exactly where you are, I think are wrong. I honestly do not see how they can say this if they have any experience playing as a skulk.
Regards,
Savant
P.S. Unrelated, but I smilies fix look different. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <img src='http://masterswordman.home.attbi.com/4.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>, I think they did transparency. That's why the there's still some white around them.
<b>Motion Tracking Units</b>
Observatory + Motion Tracking Upgrade = Motion Tracking Units
After you research Motion Tracking you have Motion Tracking Units (MTU) available for your marines. The cost is per unit. A MTU gives the marine the Motion Tracking ablility on their Hud. Any teammates within a certain range of the Marine with the MTU will be given Motion Tracking abilities.
I see a couple side of the MT Issue and I think they are all relevent in some way or another. The issues that concern me are teamplay and atmosphere.
I agree, MT gives marines with better reflexes a powerful tool which they could utilize for more DM style play (Bad) which may give newer NS player the idea that going solo is acceptable (Bad). MT can impact Teamplay negatively which I dislike.
Without a doubt a game without MT is far more suspenseful. Knowing the approximate location of an enemy really spoils that suspense for me. However I do agree that MT is an invaluable tool for Marines and total removal shouldn't be considered.
I hope my MTU idea makes MT a little more interesting with the introduction of teamplay elements and a limiting factor of having to spend RP for individual MTUs.
Just an idea.. throwing it out their...
First Suggestion: Motion tracking limited to Observatory range, at least 5 Observatories needed to cover the entire map. Observatory should also supply commander with Tracking, if it doesn't already.
This would make the battlefield more diverse, as aliens will have another buildings to kill other than Factories and Gates. Furthermore, it would be cool to see Marines build them in dark corners, and then just leave, using them as scouts.
Second (I like this one alot more): Make the "Friendly Tracker", remove Motion Tracking of enemies altogether. This seems more realistic and in tune with the stated design philosophies of NS. That is, Marines are supposed to work as a team. Forcing the CO to constantly give waypoints to individual marines so that they can regroup with teammates is a waste of time. The Marine game is already too overloaded with voice spam, requests for waypoints, and so forth. The Marines should be getting a built-in Friendly Tracker, or a really cheap upgrade option. Name indicators and armor status attached to the tracking icons would be great too. Again, this seems more logical in military technological development than Enemy Only Tracking.
The Aliens should be the ones WITHOUT a Friendly Tracker, if anyone, as it follows NS's statement that Alien players are supposed to be "lone wolves". Personally I think both sides need Friendly Trackers, it encourages teamwork, reduces voice spam, etc etc.
I'll just add in that I like MT as is, I've beaten marine teams with MT, I've lost as marine team with MT.
MT does not make you invincible, and becoming overly reliant on it will cause you to die.
BlueGhost
The Aliens should be the ones WITHOUT a Friendly Tracker, if anyone, as it follows NS's statement that Alien players are supposed to be "lone wolves". Personally I think both sides need Friendly Trackers, it encourages teamwork, reduces voice spam, etc etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh-heh.
I feel the same way. I don't know why more Teamplayer games don't have a Friend Indicator.
MT is good as is now... Maybe a second upgrade (spending more resources) for friendly tracking would be nice... But i'm happy about the way MT is now...