TeoH, i've come to respect you due to your well written posts and arguements, even when i've disagreed with you. However your post above is rubbish. I'm sorry but it is (IMO of course <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (redeemed darkness @ Jan 22 2003, 10:53 AM) Err.... You do realize that the big nozzle flash was in before 1.04? ?
In 1.03, most serious players had it turned off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respectfully disagree. In 1.03, anyone sad/desperate enough to want to gain any miniscule advantage they could, turned it off. I play NS in a serious manner, albeit to have fun. I didn't, don't and won't turn it off.
More likely you have poor aim. Removing the obstruction removes a random factor from the act of aiming, it allows those who can track precisely and adjust their aim quickly to do so, instead of capping their ability by obscuring vision of the target. If you cannot land more hits when the gun model is removed, either your aim was very poor in the first place, or your video card is very friendly to you with regards to transparencies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone can cope with the muzzle flash, you can't, therefore he has poor aim ? The logic doesn't track TeoH. It would seem the other way round. You can't aim, and therefore you need help by removing the muzzle flash. Not a personal attack on your skill, just an observation.
However, your point about transparencies is noted. I have a G4 Ti4400, a fairly decent card, so perhaps it's not effecting me as much as others. Until we can prove it though its a moot point. If perhaps we could post images of the flash produced by different GFX cards we could explain the mystery of the muzzle flash.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good player can adjust his aim quickly and track precisely, temporarily hiding the target everytime you fire makes this skill irrelevant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case, me and everyone else who has no problem with the muzzle flash and still kill their fair share of skulks must be <b>very</b> good players. Thank you for the implied compliment <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hate to say this, but i've got a hunch all the people who are complaining about the muzzle flash and turn it off are also the same people who think its OK to crank their gamma all the way up. If so, no wonder you think it's a problem. Try turning your brightness down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> muzzie flash CAN be coped with / we can play on that server and still do fine <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't about coping, it isnt about "doing fine". I can kill skulks with the flash and i can kill skulks without it, but without it, i can blame my misses on my own aim, not the fact that my target was covered by a big fancy flame effect. Well, actually i can't because we still have random firing cones and completely innaccurate hitboxes, but at least this is a step in the right direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Muzzie and Teeth were quite obviously put in to reduce the skill of indevidual players affect on the game. Imagine a game of C&C where you're intire team can instantly head-shot the other team on sight, it becomes practically impossible to lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea of instant death kills are fundamentaly flawed from a gameplay perspective, because it negates the ability for the other player to counter with his own skills. NS isnt C&C (I actually don't know what this is, but seeing as NS doesn't have insta-gib headshots, it isnt NS), a player with exceptional aim can be beaten by a player who dodges well, uses the environment and scouting information properly. If a marine can gun you down from the other end of a coridoor, you'll have to find a way to get up close to him, set up an organised ambush or get some major dodging skills. If a skulk is extremely skilled, you'll have to get scans and scouting info from your comm, along with covering teammates. Hows that for <b>STRATAGY</b>? If your skill is comparable to your opponents, and your tactics superior, you'll win. Likewise, as it stands now, gun model or no gun model, if your tactics are comparable to your opponents but you can't even kill skulks (Wether through your lack of skill, or through sheer bad luck) you are going to lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What you guys are <b>ACCTUALLY</b> complaining about is not a 'skill cap' its the fact that <b>YOUR</b> personal ability, what you consider to be a 'good aim' is being reduced in effectivness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That <b>is</b> a skill cap numbnuts, aim is already a part of the game, your ability to hit skulks as a marine is completely crucial to the outcome of the game as it stands. Making a factor such as aiming important to the game and then slapping a random element on it is the issue. Which would you rather lose to, a marine whose superior aim allowed him to land the final crucial shot needed to kill you and secure the hive, or a marine who just happened to get obscured by your teeth as you came in for the bite causing you to miss the kill through no fault of your own and lose the hive?
Even if you are completely opposed to any degree of individual skill at all, and mesmerized by the ideas of 'stratagy' to the point that you believe anything remotely associated with it must have limitless depth, you can't ignore the above. Aim <b>is</b> a factor in NS at the moment, and to have a crucial factor of the game shadowed by random firing cones, vision obstructions etc. is harmful to the game no matter what your opinion on individual skill is. Locking r_drawviewmodel doesn't stop aim effecting the outcome of matches (And by aim here, i mean the outcome of a marine versus skulk standoff which comes down to the number of hits landed by each, not the aiming skill of a player). For the game to be competitive, you have to remove as many elements of luck as you possibly can.
My personal view of course is that individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience, but wether you agree with that or not, the above issue still applies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2) Fire Blind; Predict the motion of your enemy using any data you can scavange through the muzzie flash. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the most effective dodging pattern against hitscan weapons is to move completely randomly, the act of 'prediction' in this case is infact mostly blind luck. Real prediction aim is nearly non-existant without reasonably slow projectiles.
Its funny how no matter what game you play, no matter what game or issue you are discussing, and no matter which side of an argument you are on, you can always be subject to the phrase "If you don't like blah blah, go play TFC". And this is seen as an insult in every case :)
I've used the phrase, had it used on me and seen it used on other people many times before - and this was when i was in the Q3 community. For the record, i don't play TFC or CS (Yes i've tried both), infact i have a strong dislike of HL and most things associated to it, the engine is horrible and most of the community disgusts me. I'm here playing NS because i've followed other clan players after my last serious game went down the proverbial plughole.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Someone can cope with the muzzle flash, you can't, therefore he has poor aim ? The logic doesn't track TeoH. It would seem the other way round. You can't aim, and therefore you need help by removing the muzzle flash. Not a personal attack on your skill, just an observation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me try and explain my logic, as this is a debate point you might not have encountered.
The muzzle flash is a random element. The muzzle flash does not increase the degree of skill required to use the LMG, because its effects are random. The result of adding the muzzle flash to the weapon can be said to be equivalent to adding a random chance of a miss with each shot fired. Wether you lose track of your target or not is random and when you are blind, your ability to land a shot on the target is also random.
It is not an element that you overcome with skill, it simply results in all players missing a random portion of their hits. As a contrasting example, a consistant recoil (shots move steadily upwards as you fire the weapon in a consistant manner) can be compensated for by adjusting your aim as you fire the weapon. The important distinction is, a person with good aim compensates better for this recoil than a person with bad aim will. But with the muzzle flash, no one compensates. Everyones accuracy is reduced by a non-proportional value. Which means proportionally speaking, a good player is hit harder by the muzzle flash than a bad player.
The recoil reduces everyones accuracy by a proportional value. Good players would miss fewer shots than poor players if they didn't have the recoil, but they compensate better for it so the effect on a good players aim is proportionally equivalent to the effect on a poor players aim. If you add a random element that results in all players missing 1 in every 2 shots, this impacts more on a skilled player than it does on a lesser skilled player. This narrows the field of skill, a player with good aim now has less of an advantage over a player with bad aim. At the same time, the outcome of any confrontation is much more dependant on luck that it otherwise would be.
From my perspective, both are bad for the game, from blueghost's perspective, the second should be bad for the game. My argument has nothing at all to do with 'unfair advantages', given control of the game i would have the gun model off by default. The suggestion that i want to be able to turn it off to gain an advantage over people who leave it on is therefore ridiculous. I play with the model off, and i expect the people i play against to do the same. Not because "they cheat so i have to cheat too" or any similar ridiculous comment which i know someone was about to blurt out, but because i don't believe in playing games with kidgloves.
The issue of transparency is additional to the above, some people might be more or less effected by the flash due to their gamma settings/vid card etc. This is yet another random element.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In that case, me and everyone else who has no problem with the muzzle flash and still kill their fair share of skulks must be <b>very</b> good players. Thank you for the implied compliment :) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed my logic again, i am not in anyway arguing that it is too difficult to kill skulks with the muzzle flash. Balance between the 2 races has nothing to do with my argument, my argument is - the game plays better without the limitation of a random element such as muzzle flash. You can compare this with swimmers shaving their heads or wearing caps when competing, they do not 'need' to wear a cap to swim across a swimming pool. But the competition is more enjoyable if the winner is decided by whoever is the most athletic, not whoever has the most aerodynamic hairstyle.
I don't wear cloggs to a football match, and i wouldn't be particularly happy if someone on the opposing team showed up in cloggs, and then informed me i was a pansy for not artificially limiting myself with ridiculous footwear.
Still dont get this whole muzzle-flash issuse. Still own most skulks by the dozen. Still hate most people, because they complain about things that make no sense to complain about.
Either I am a great player, or you guys(that are complaining) just can't handle muzzle-flash.
PS. On the whole gamma issue. I realize that if you have INSANE gamma turned up, it does become really bad. But sweet jesus...why would you turn your gamma up that dang high.
Well I wrote a big reply to your semi-flame and then relized your arguments were much easier to pick apart logically because, *shock* they make no real sence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal view of course is that individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience, but wether you agree with that or not, the above issue still applies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're happy for them to put a limit on indevidual skill.
YET, when that limit is:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making a factor such as aiming important to the game and then slapping a random element on it is the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get all upset. Why?
As for:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if you are completely opposed to any degree of individual skill at all, and mesmerized by the ideas of 'stratagy' to the point that you believe anything remotely associated with it must have limitless depth, you can't ignore the above. Aim is a factor in NS at the moment, and to have a crucial factor of the game shadowed by random firing cones, vision obstructions etc. is harmful to the game no matter what your opinion on individual skill is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all I can say is, I'm not. I like you belive that:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still argue that dealing with the teeth and muzzie flash are simply extra skills which you must learn. And that while you will never have a perfect aim or perfect tracking with them in, all this results in is a usefull balance to the stratigic/tactical aspects of the game vs the 'aiming like an aim bot' part of the game. As they 'flatten out' the 'graph' of skill, preventing a team of people with good aims dominating as marines.
The fireing cones are to help prevent cheating via aimbots. (someone who ONLY uses the pistol and continually kills everyone with it is rather obvious)
Still thinking about it the whole argument is pointless, Flayra has stated they are locking the teeth/muzzie flash so unless you wish to cheat propperly you'll have to deal with it.
Hear they're taking out B-hopping too, lifes a **** isn't it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no one compensates. Everyones accuracy is reduced by a non-proportional value<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incedently, I compensate, no-human can produce truly random anything. When said human has a known goal (get upto you and bite your arse off) there ability to produce random stuff drops down to near zero.
I don't think you really understood me at all there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, you're happy for them to put a limit on indevidual skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said i was happy about any limits on individual skill. If you think my comment about balancing individual skill with other factors implies that, then it doesn't. You don't need to limit individual skill to have a game that combines both skill, tactics and strategy. I'm very tempted to point at Street Fighter here, although no game is perfect and you can poke holes in anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The fireing cones are to help prevent cheating via aimbots. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not the first time i've heard that, and i still think its horrifically poor logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> C&C is a RTS (real time stratagy) game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait.... you mean command and conquer C&C? So what was all that about headshots? :)
TeoH, several times in your post you describe the muzzle flash as random and compare its effect on the game with the effect recoil would have.
Firstly, why is the muzzle flash random ? It occupies precisely the same area of the screen every time you fire. It does not actually obscure your X-hair, merely the area down and right from it, and intermitedly at that. And its not exactly a big area anyways.
It is in no-way equivalent to adding a random chance of missing to all of your shots.
Secondly, you compare the muzzle flash with recoil, and state recoil helps differentiate between skilled and un-skilled players, whilst muzzle flash doesn't.
If i'm fighting a skulk, and it gets close enough to me that it gets completly obscured by the flash, I usually jump perpendically (at 90 degrees) from where I last saw it going. Whilst doing that I stop firing and track towards where I think its going, hopefully have the skulk going in the wrong direction and resume putting holes in it. At the same time I hope a teammate had a clear view during all this and already has or helps me drop the skulk.
I'd bet a less killed player would spin in circles and get killed, or hop all over the place and then <b>it is</b> down to luck who kills who. Additionally, a less skilled player is more likely to go off by him/herself and didn't have someone with a clear view during the muzzle flash obscuring episode <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Muzzle flash isn't random, does help differentiate between players and any problems can be overcome by teamwork, as if your muzzle flash is obscuring one particular alien, your teammate's sight should be clear.
Additionally something useful has come from this thread however that i've only just realised. If i'm a skulk attacking a marine(s), i'll usually circle strafe around them if i've got the option. From now on i'll always go clockwise around them so the muzzle flash obscures me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: I don't understand the C&C reference either <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the C&C referance is that you have to have balance or the stratagy becomes un-important, thus if you're playing a c&c game but your troops can all head-shot and the enemy's troops don't have the 'l33t skillz' to do this, there is no stratagy required.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok correct me if I'm wrong,
In this statment you are saying that:
1) Individual skill should be important to the outcome of the game.
BUT
2) This should be balanced against strategic and tactical elements.
Hence, one (1) good player shouldn't define the outcome of the game SOLEY by that players 'uberosity' of soloing all the enemy while the rest of the team sit around on their arse going 'com gimmi a shotty'
Correct?
In short a godly player cannot makeup for the rest of the team being rubbish. (ala CS where a lone AWP wealding cheating sod can just headshot everybody through the walls)
BlueGhost
Edit>
Stratagy: the use of team-ploys and overall movment/logistics to your advantage against the enemy.
Tactics: the specific use of formations, position ect to improve the performance of indevidual soilder/squads on the battlefield.
<!--QuoteBegin--Defcon+Jan 22 2003, 09:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Defcon @ Jan 22 2003, 09:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite a few clans, for example, DW and NG do not play with model consitency on, and alot of them use r_drawviewmodel 0, this generally being based on the fact marines are MUCH stronger early game vs. skulks without this disadvantage.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL do they use pistol scripts and leap bite scripts too?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
C&C Point.
He meant that if you played C&C, and the Nod troops killed you with every shot (a la Tanya or Commando army) you'd think the game sucked, if both sides cost the same, as tactics would be irrelevant.
I'd vote for a midground, where you have to both compensate for tactics factors (structure placement, troop dispositions, when & where to assault) vs individual skill (we've all seen where 1 uber skulk kills 6 marines - hey, I've done it) but can the respective side cope & adapt to this skill quick enough?
Personally, I reckon if you've got the gamma cranked enough for the flash to affect your gaming, you have it too high, and are trying to dodge the whole darkness of NS & rooms thing, so either way you're being a little dodgy. And incidentally, no, my monitor isn't bright. It was broke when I bought it, and I have to use Adobe Gamma every time I boot to get it to an acceptable level.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Firstly, why is the muzzle flash random ? It occupies precisely the same area of the screen every time you fire. It does not actually obscure your X-hair, merely the area down and right from it, and intermitedly at that. And its not exactly a big area anyways. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider it random because it <b>will</b> cause you to miss some shots, but it can't be really predicted or compensated for. Infact you've mentioned the only concious decision i can think of that would have an effect on the outcome - skulks going clockwise around the marine :)
How the sprite appears on the screen each time may be consistant, but the effect it has on your aim is not.
Obviously muzzle flash isnt as uniform as missing 1 in every 2 shots, ironically it would be alot more random than that. I don't believe you can really compensate for it to any significant degree, for my system at least, a target directly under my crosshair is still close enough to the muzzle for it to hinder my aim. Getting flashing glimpses of a target is quite comparable to playing in a low fps, or on a lagging server. How much of the target is obscured varies, and you can't do anything to influence the extent to which you are obstructed while firing. As you say, the alien can try running to the side where the flash is most prominent, but this is more a case of increasing the odds. The alien doesn't know if or when he's obstructed by the model, the marine can't really do anything to avoid things being obstructed by the model. Hence i propose that its a random element.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If i'm fighting a skulk, and it gets close enough to me that it gets completly obscured by the flash, I usually jump perpendically (at 90 degrees) from where I last saw it going. Whilst doing that I stop firing and track towards where I think its going, hopefully have the skulk going in the wrong direction and resume putting holes in it. At the same time I hope a teammate had a clear view during all this and already has or helps me drop the skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dodging away from a close range skulk isn't any less important with the muzzle off. You only see flickers, so i would suggest there is a random chance of the skulk being obscured from your view as you begin to dodge away from it. If you don't see where the skulk is headed you can't dodge effectively. You can recreate the same situation a few times with muzzle, and your ability to track the aliens motion will vary each time becase of it. Would it not be better to allow clear judgement every time, where the only thing that dictates if you dodge effectively or not is how well you can track the clearly presented skulk, rather than an inconsistant flickering glimpse of one, that you may or may not be able to see from one moment to the next. Because the muzzle basically obscures whatever you aim at, the situation is rarely any better from another angle. As long as you have to put the target in the center of your screen, the muzzle is going to play a role.
I didn't say my recoil example increases the differentiation between skilled and unskilled players, it would probably be considered about even with not having the recoil. As opposed to the the muzzle which i believe reduces the differentiation.
Its impossible to remove every element of luck from a game without massively simplifying the game, but the muzzle flash is strange in that all it seems to do as far as im concerned is randomize the firing. What does it actually add to the game that makes it necessary? A thematic indicator of what you're carrying would probably be the reply from a mod, but i have seen many gun models in many games and none are as obstructive as the LMG with muzzle flash, it has to have been done on purpose. And i dissagree with whoever made that decision.
In firearms, there used to be a version of the AR with attached GL (who's name I forget just now) that fired full auto, instead of the three round burst as in the current version. It was abused severly, simply put, people would shoot a clip at you, full auto, then use a grenade if you were still standing. However, it was usually the grenade that killed you and not the clip.
The reason I never used this gun was the muzzle flash was HUGE. massive. it covered up more then half the screen, and made aiming at anything almost impossible. The screen also shook in an annoying manner. I never used that gun, even though the offensive power and ROF was nice, not to mention the attached GL. It was simply so annoying and hard to aim.
This is a good example of using weapon firing effects to balance a weapon to some degree.
As far as I can tell, all having a muzzle flash does is require you to learn a different skill set. Instead of having the 'aim at something perfectly' skill, you need to predict where they will go, and burst fire. If you just hold the fire button down and never reaquire target, it's your own stupid fault if you don't hit that well with a muzzle flash. Saying that all skulk movement is completely random is just pure BS. They are always going to be moving towards you to some degree. It's your job as an <i>intelligent</i> marine (rather than just a trigger monkey) to attempt to predict what that skulk will do next. It's possible. It's also a challenge - which I hope everyone complaining about the 'skill' being removed because of muzzle flash would relish!
If you can't keep a target acquired as a skulk, thats because you're just holding down bite rather than selecting your targets. Sure, it's harder, but all the people arguing for a more skill based experience will like that, right?
It's not less skill, it's just different skill. If you are worried that you don't have that skill yet, then I kindly advise you that this is because you've been abusing an exploit to get around having to learn it.
Kilmster, read the posts. Some people think muzzle flash is a big deal, some people don't. Last time I checked we were having a perfectly civilised discussion as to why i'm right and they're wrong <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There's no whinging happening. Posts like yours are completely un-needed.
True, a bit of randomness in a game is a whole lot more fun than in a game with no recoil, no fire cone, no nothing. However, while removing the muzzleflash, there can be other ways that IMHO that I think can better handle the balance. Lower clip size, more recoil, screen shake, etc. However, my complaint isn't about the muzzleflash.
It's about the FUGLY skulk bite. It's just TOO atmosphere breaking. I mean, having eyes inside the mouth is not only totally ludicrous, but **** restrictive too. It feels like your stuck in a sub, and looking out the viewhole. Also, whereas claw attacks actually look like your smacking them, the bite attack looks like you're taking a picture of them. That's the only significant dislike I have of NS.
Defcon, please let me speak for myself. I haven't decided about the details of bunny-hopping yet.
"Clearly thinking through" balance changes doesn't help. You have to play the changes to see how they work, and you have to have a lot of people playing them. Balancing in your head or on paper only gets you so far.
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 23 2003, 12:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 23 2003, 12:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defcon, please let me speak for myself. I haven't decided about the details of bunny-hopping yet.
"Clearly thinking through" balance changes doesn't help. You have to play the changes to see how they work, and you have to have a lot of people playing them. Balancing in your head or on paper only gets you so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed flarya, then tell those in sYn/ReD that keep telling me 'flarya said bunnhopping will be kept in for skulks'
I did state the fact I just 'heard' it, no way an official statement from you.
Anyway i've emailed you from the account david@ukname.net on something that'd help you, since I am quite experienced when it comes down to testing software/games, I'd like to offer my input with the help of the euro players (top clans and such) before you go ahead and release the final 1.04 to the masses. (In a professional form)
Else you may likely just shift the balance flaws as they currently are to a new area of the game, yet to be discovered. Excuse my attitude yesterday, I was in a rather bad mood with some real life issues.
This thread makes my head hurt and causes me to weep for humanity.
Muzzle flash never bothered me. I know where my crosshair is - I don't need to look at it to be reminded. I know well enough where the skulk is at close range. Besides, since skulks jump around like hyperactive lemmings, knowing where they are is not half as important as trying to guess where they will be.
Every single thing complained about on this thread has nothing to do with 1.04.
Every thing complained about on this thread has nothing to with balance issues.
The subject shouldn't be called "Balance Issues 1.04". It should be called "Things that bother me about NS".
I'd be sorely tempted to ban every major participant of this thread if I were a mod. For life. Or at the very least, rename the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--geldonyetich+Jan 23 2003, 01:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (geldonyetich @ Jan 23 2003, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This thread makes my head hurt and causes me to weep for humanity.
Muzzle flash never bothered me. I know where my crosshair is - I don't need to look at it to be reminded. I know well enough where the skulk is at close range. Besides, since skulks jump around like hyperactive lemmings, knowing where they are is not half as important as trying to guess where they will be.
Every single thing complained about on this thread has nothing to do with 1.04.
Every thing complained about on this thread has nothing to with balance issues.
The subject shouldn't be called "Balance Issues 1.04". It should be called "Things that bother me about NS".
I'd be sorely tempted to ban every major participant of this thread if I were a mod. For life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hehe, however your wrong.
the games being balanced on an unbalanced problem...
r_draw 0 gives an advantage to marines, then add the fact marines are being weakended in so many ways (because in pro games they always won). When they implement r_draw 1 as a constant we'll only end up with aliens being the stronger side.
I see. I stand partially corrected and the hurting in my head lessens to a dull throbb.
I'm thinking it won't influence balance MUCH. I imagine there's not that many players who know about the r_draw console functionality. I consider myself somewhat half-life literate, and I didn't know about it.
So I'm thinking this will only influence the small percentage of the players. Those players who happen to have learned to rely on using half-life console tricks to weigh the game in their advantage.
Frankly, I'd be happy to see all sorts of bad things happen to that percentage of players.
Marine striength in clan matches has very little to do with r_draw and a great deal to do with marine dominance early game, non-carapice skulks are just fraknly ill equipped to stop 7 marines running into an area and holding it.
All the stratagys I've heard about top clans using revolve around getting moving so fast that by the time the enemy skulks have carapice they're attacking well defended positions. (assuming the marines haven't just rushed the first hive)
As such the changes were needed to slow the marines down, what puzzles me is that on all the 1.04 servers I played on the alien re-spawn bug stopped any meaningfull balance tests.
Must have something to do with some people's thought processes.
Me, I mentally piece together what little the gun and muzzle flash blocks out.
I don't need to be reminded where the crosshair is, so it doesn't bother me at all that the crosshair is obscured by the muzzle flash. I'm not trying to get my crosshair over the target, I'm trying to center a certain already known point of the screen on the target.
I don't need to keep an eye on a skulk when it's close enough to be under my gun and muzzle flash polygon. It moves too fast to make a difference. Instead, I try to anticipate it's moves.
i have no idea why we are discusing this but anyway. I didnt say u couldn't kill 5 skulks because of the muzzle flash. i said that u couldn't kill 5 good skulks if they come together and u are alone. even if the hallway is long u cant expect a good skulk to just run in your line of fire. A good skulk jumps around and dodges the bullets a sucky skulk doesn't.
if you cant see because off your muzzleflash you can either:
a) fire in bursts
b) pray and spray
c) uppdate the refreshrate of your eye-brain
and as for the you can kill you cant kill issue it all comes down to: skill-lag, skill-lag of opponents and wheter or not you are wearing your lucky underwear
Wowwww. How long can they argue over the same thing? I didnt feel like reading pages 2-4, so I skipped to 5. Sadly, the stupid "5 skulk/"skulk" argument is STILL continuing! LET IT GO! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
BlueGhost
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE (redeemed darkness @ Jan 22 2003, 10:53 AM)
Err.... You do realize that the big nozzle flash was in before 1.04? ?
In 1.03, most serious players had it turned off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respectfully disagree. In 1.03, anyone sad/desperate enough to want to gain any miniscule advantage they could, turned it off. I play NS in a serious manner, albeit to have fun. I didn't, don't and won't turn it off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE ?
Perhaps I have some kind of superior eyesight
More likely you have poor aim. Removing the obstruction removes a random factor from the act of aiming, it allows those who can track precisely and adjust their aim quickly to do so, instead of capping their ability by obscuring vision of the target. If you cannot land more hits when the gun model is removed, either your aim was very poor in the first place, or your video card is very friendly to you with regards to transparencies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone can cope with the muzzle flash, you can't, therefore he has poor aim ? The logic doesn't track TeoH. It would seem the other way round. You can't aim, and therefore you need help by removing the muzzle flash. Not a personal attack on your skill, just an observation.
However, your point about transparencies is noted. I have a G4 Ti4400, a fairly decent card, so perhaps it's not effecting me as much as others. Until we can prove it though its a moot point. If perhaps we could post images of the flash produced by different GFX cards we could explain the mystery of the muzzle flash.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A good player can adjust his aim quickly and track precisely, temporarily hiding the target everytime you fire makes this skill irrelevant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In that case, me and everyone else who has no problem with the muzzle flash and still kill their fair share of skulks must be <b>very</b> good players. Thank you for the implied compliment <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hate to say this, but i've got a hunch all the people who are complaining about the muzzle flash and turn it off are also the same people who think its OK to crank their gamma all the way up. If so, no wonder you think it's a problem. Try turning your brightness down.
muzzie flash CAN be coped with /
we can play on that server and still do fine
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't about coping, it isnt about "doing fine". I can kill skulks with the flash and i can kill skulks without it, but without it, i can blame my misses on my own aim, not the fact that my target was covered by a big fancy flame effect. Well, actually i can't because we still have random firing cones and completely innaccurate hitboxes, but at least this is a step in the right direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Muzzie and Teeth were quite obviously put in to reduce the skill of indevidual players affect on the game. Imagine a game of C&C where you're intire team can instantly head-shot the other team on sight, it becomes practically impossible to lose.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea of instant death kills are fundamentaly flawed from a gameplay perspective, because it negates the ability for the other player to counter with his own skills. NS isnt C&C (I actually don't know what this is, but seeing as NS doesn't have insta-gib headshots, it isnt NS), a player with exceptional aim can be beaten by a player who dodges well, uses the environment and scouting information properly. If a marine can gun you down from the other end of a coridoor, you'll have to find a way to get up close to him, set up an organised ambush or get some major dodging skills. If a skulk is extremely skilled, you'll have to get scans and scouting info from your comm, along with covering teammates. Hows that for <b>STRATAGY</b>? If your skill is comparable to your opponents, and your tactics superior, you'll win. Likewise, as it stands now, gun model or no gun model, if your tactics are comparable to your opponents but you can't even kill skulks (Wether through your lack of skill, or through sheer bad luck) you are going to lose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
What you guys are <b>ACCTUALLY</b> complaining about is not a 'skill cap' its the fact that <b>YOUR</b> personal ability, what you consider to be a 'good aim' is being reduced in effectivness.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That <b>is</b> a skill cap numbnuts, aim is already a part of the game, your ability to hit skulks as a marine is completely crucial to the outcome of the game as it stands. Making a factor such as aiming important to the game and then slapping a random element on it is the issue. Which would you rather lose to, a marine whose superior aim allowed him to land the final crucial shot needed to kill you and secure the hive, or a marine who just happened to get obscured by your teeth as you came in for the bite causing you to miss the kill through no fault of your own and lose the hive?
Even if you are completely opposed to any degree of individual skill at all, and mesmerized by the ideas of 'stratagy' to the point that you believe anything remotely associated with it must have limitless depth, you can't ignore the above. Aim <b>is</b> a factor in NS at the moment, and to have a crucial factor of the game shadowed by random firing cones, vision obstructions etc. is harmful to the game no matter what your opinion on individual skill is. Locking r_drawviewmodel doesn't stop aim effecting the outcome of matches (And by aim here, i mean the outcome of a marine versus skulk standoff which comes down to the number of hits landed by each, not the aiming skill of a player). For the game to be competitive, you have to remove as many elements of luck as you possibly can.
My personal view of course is that individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience, but wether you agree with that or not, the above issue still applies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
2) Fire Blind; Predict the motion of your enemy using any data you can scavange through the muzzie flash.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the most effective dodging pattern against hitscan weapons is to move completely randomly, the act of 'prediction' in this case is infact mostly blind luck. Real prediction aim is nearly non-existant without reasonably slow projectiles.
Its funny how no matter what game you play, no matter what game or issue you are discussing, and no matter which side of an argument you are on, you can always be subject to the phrase "If you don't like blah blah, go play TFC". And this is seen as an insult in every case :)
I've used the phrase, had it used on me and seen it used on other people many times before - and this was when i was in the Q3 community. For the record, i don't play TFC or CS (Yes i've tried both), infact i have a strong dislike of HL and most things associated to it, the engine is horrible and most of the community disgusts me. I'm here playing NS because i've followed other clan players after my last serious game went down the proverbial plughole.
Someone can cope with the muzzle flash, you can't, therefore he has poor aim ? The logic doesn't track TeoH. It would seem the other way round. You can't aim, and therefore you need help by removing the muzzle flash. Not a personal attack on your skill, just an observation.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me try and explain my logic, as this is a debate point you might not have encountered.
The muzzle flash is a random element. The muzzle flash does not increase the degree of skill required to use the LMG, because its effects are random. The result of adding the muzzle flash to the weapon can be said to be equivalent to adding a random chance of a miss with each shot fired. Wether you lose track of your target or not is random and when you are blind, your ability to land a shot on the target is also random.
It is not an element that you overcome with skill, it simply results in all players missing a random portion of their hits. As a contrasting example, a consistant recoil (shots move steadily upwards as you fire the weapon in a consistant manner) can be compensated for by adjusting your aim as you fire the weapon. The important distinction is, a person with good aim compensates better for this recoil than a person with bad aim will. But with the muzzle flash, no one compensates. Everyones accuracy is reduced by a non-proportional value. Which means proportionally speaking, a good player is hit harder by the muzzle flash than a bad player.
The recoil reduces everyones accuracy by a proportional value. Good players would miss fewer shots than poor players if they didn't have the recoil, but they compensate better for it so the effect on a good players aim is proportionally equivalent to the effect on a poor players aim. If you add a random element that results in all players missing 1 in every 2 shots, this impacts more on a skilled player than it does on a lesser skilled player. This narrows the field of skill, a player with good aim now has less of an advantage over a player with bad aim. At the same time, the outcome of any confrontation is much more dependant on luck that it otherwise would be.
From my perspective, both are bad for the game, from blueghost's perspective, the second should be bad for the game. My argument has nothing at all to do with 'unfair advantages', given control of the game i would have the gun model off by default. The suggestion that i want to be able to turn it off to gain an advantage over people who leave it on is therefore ridiculous. I play with the model off, and i expect the people i play against to do the same. Not because "they cheat so i have to cheat too" or any similar ridiculous comment which i know someone was about to blurt out, but because i don't believe in playing games with kidgloves.
The issue of transparency is additional to the above, some people might be more or less effected by the flash due to their gamma settings/vid card etc. This is yet another random element.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
In that case, me and everyone else who has no problem with the muzzle flash and still kill their fair share of skulks must be <b>very</b> good players. Thank you for the implied compliment :)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed my logic again, i am not in anyway arguing that it is too difficult to kill skulks with the muzzle flash. Balance between the 2 races has nothing to do with my argument, my argument is - the game plays better without the limitation of a random element such as muzzle flash. You can compare this with swimmers shaving their heads or wearing caps when competing, they do not 'need' to wear a cap to swim across a swimming pool. But the competition is more enjoyable if the winner is decided by whoever is the most athletic, not whoever has the most aerodynamic hairstyle.
I don't wear cloggs to a football match, and i wouldn't be particularly happy if someone on the opposing team showed up in cloggs, and then informed me i was a pansy for not artificially limiting myself with ridiculous footwear.
Still own most skulks by the dozen.
Still hate most people, because they complain about things that make no sense to complain about.
Either I am a great player, or you guys(that are complaining) just can't handle muzzle-flash.
PS. On the whole gamma issue. I realize that if you have INSANE gamma turned up, it does become really bad. But sweet jesus...why would you turn your gamma up that dang high.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My personal view of course is that individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience, but wether you agree with that or not, the above issue still applies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're happy for them to put a limit on indevidual skill.
YET, when that limit is:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Making a factor such as aiming important to the game and then slapping a random element on it is the issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get all upset. Why?
As for:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even if you are completely opposed to any degree of individual skill at all, and mesmerized by the ideas of 'stratagy' to the point that you believe anything remotely associated with it must have limitless depth, you can't ignore the above. Aim is a factor in NS at the moment, and to have a crucial factor of the game shadowed by random firing cones, vision obstructions etc. is harmful to the game no matter what your opinion on individual skill is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all I can say is, I'm not. I like you belive that:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still argue that dealing with the teeth and muzzie flash are simply extra skills which you must learn. And that while you will never have a perfect aim or perfect tracking with them in, all this results in is a usefull balance to the stratigic/tactical aspects of the game vs the 'aiming like an aim bot' part of the game. As they 'flatten out' the 'graph' of skill, preventing a team of people with good aims dominating as marines.
The fireing cones are to help prevent cheating via aimbots. (someone who ONLY uses the pistol and continually kills everyone with it is rather obvious)
BlueGhost
C&C is a RTS (real time stratagy) game.
Hear they're taking out B-hopping too, lifes a **** isn't it.
BlueGhost
Incedently, I compensate, no-human can produce truly random anything. When said human has a known goal (get upto you and bite your arse off) there ability to produce random stuff drops down to near zero.
BlueGhost
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
So, you're happy for them to put a limit on indevidual skill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said i was happy about any limits on individual skill. If you think my comment about balancing individual skill with other factors implies that, then it doesn't. You don't need to limit individual skill to have a game that combines both skill, tactics and strategy. I'm very tempted to point at Street Fighter here, although no game is perfect and you can poke holes in anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The fireing cones are to help prevent cheating via aimbots.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not the first time i've heard that, and i still think its horrifically poor logic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
C&C is a RTS (real time stratagy) game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait.... you mean command and conquer C&C? So what was all that about headshots? :)
Firstly, why is the muzzle flash random ? It occupies precisely the same area of the screen every time you fire. It does not actually obscure your X-hair, merely the area down and right from it, and intermitedly at that. And its not exactly a big area anyways.
It is in no-way equivalent to adding a random chance of missing to all of your shots.
Secondly, you compare the muzzle flash with recoil, and state recoil helps differentiate between skilled and un-skilled players, whilst muzzle flash doesn't.
If i'm fighting a skulk, and it gets close enough to me that it gets completly obscured by the flash, I usually jump perpendically (at 90 degrees) from where I last saw it going. Whilst doing that I stop firing and track towards where I think its going, hopefully have the skulk going in the wrong direction and resume putting holes in it. At the same time I hope a teammate had a clear view during all this and already has or helps me drop the skulk.
I'd bet a less killed player would spin in circles and get killed, or hop all over the place and then <b>it is</b> down to luck who kills who. Additionally, a less skilled player is more likely to go off by him/herself and didn't have someone with a clear view during the muzzle flash obscuring episode <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Muzzle flash isn't random, does help differentiate between players and any problems can be overcome by teamwork, as if your muzzle flash is obscuring one particular alien, your teammate's sight should be clear.
Additionally something useful has come from this thread however that i've only just realised. If i'm a skulk attacking a marine(s), i'll usually circle strafe around them if i've got the option. From now on i'll always go clockwise around them so the muzzle flash obscures me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: I don't understand the C&C reference either <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->individual skill should be important to the outcome of a game and balanced against strategic and tactical elements to create a richer gaming experience<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok correct me if I'm wrong,
In this statment you are saying that:
1) Individual skill should be important to the outcome of the game.
BUT
2) This should be balanced against strategic and tactical elements.
Hence, one (1) good player shouldn't define the outcome of the game SOLEY by that players 'uberosity' of soloing all the enemy while the rest of the team sit around on their arse going 'com gimmi a shotty'
Correct?
In short a godly player cannot makeup for the rest of the team being rubbish. (ala CS where a lone AWP wealding cheating sod can just headshot everybody through the walls)
BlueGhost
Edit>
Stratagy: the use of team-ploys and overall movment/logistics to your advantage against the enemy.
Tactics: the specific use of formations, position ect to improve the performance of indevidual soilder/squads on the battlefield.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL do they use pistol scripts and leap bite scripts too?
He meant that if you played C&C, and the Nod troops killed you with every shot (a la Tanya or Commando army) you'd think the game sucked, if both sides cost the same, as tactics would be irrelevant.
I'd vote for a midground, where you have to both compensate for tactics factors (structure placement, troop dispositions, when & where to assault) vs individual skill (we've all seen where 1 uber skulk kills 6 marines - hey, I've done it) but can the respective side cope & adapt to this skill quick enough?
Personally, I reckon if you've got the gamma cranked enough for the flash to affect your gaming, you have it too high, and are trying to dodge the whole darkness of NS & rooms thing, so either way you're being a little dodgy. And incidentally, no, my monitor isn't bright. It was broke when I bought it, and I have to use Adobe Gamma every time I boot to get it to an acceptable level.
Firstly, why is the muzzle flash random ? It occupies precisely the same area of the screen every time you fire. It does not actually obscure your X-hair, merely the area down and right from it, and intermitedly at that. And its not exactly a big area anyways.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I consider it random because it <b>will</b> cause you to miss some shots, but it can't be really predicted or compensated for. Infact you've mentioned the only concious decision i can think of that would have an effect on the outcome - skulks going clockwise around the marine :)
How the sprite appears on the screen each time may be consistant, but the effect it has on your aim is not.
Obviously muzzle flash isnt as uniform as missing 1 in every 2 shots, ironically it would be alot more random than that. I don't believe you can really compensate for it to any significant degree, for my system at least, a target directly under my crosshair is still close enough to the muzzle for it to hinder my aim. Getting flashing glimpses of a target is quite comparable to playing in a low fps, or on a lagging server. How much of the target is obscured varies, and you can't do anything to influence the extent to which you are obstructed while firing. As you say, the alien can try running to the side where the flash is most prominent, but this is more a case of increasing the odds. The alien doesn't know if or when he's obstructed by the model, the marine can't really do anything to avoid things being obstructed by the model. Hence i propose that its a random element.
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If i'm fighting a skulk, and it gets close enough to me that it gets completly obscured by the flash, I usually jump perpendically (at 90 degrees) from where I last saw it going. Whilst doing that I stop firing and track towards where I think its going, hopefully have the skulk going in the wrong direction and resume putting holes in it. At the same time I hope a teammate had a clear view during all this and already has or helps me drop the skulk.
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Dodging away from a close range skulk isn't any less important with the muzzle off. You only see flickers, so i would suggest there is a random chance of the skulk being obscured from your view as you begin to dodge away from it. If you don't see where the skulk is headed you can't dodge effectively. You can recreate the same situation a few times with muzzle, and your ability to track the aliens motion will vary each time becase of it. Would it not be better to allow clear judgement every time, where the only thing that dictates if you dodge effectively or not is how well you can track the clearly presented skulk, rather than an inconsistant flickering glimpse of one, that you may or may not be able to see from one moment to the next. Because the muzzle basically obscures whatever you aim at, the situation is rarely any better from another angle. As long as you have to put the target in the center of your screen, the muzzle is going to play a role.
I didn't say my recoil example increases the differentiation between skilled and unskilled players, it would probably be considered about even with not having the recoil. As opposed to the the muzzle which i believe reduces the differentiation.
Its impossible to remove every element of luck from a game without massively simplifying the game, but the muzzle flash is strange in that all it seems to do as far as im concerned is randomize the firing. What does it actually add to the game that makes it necessary? A thematic indicator of what you're carrying would probably be the reply from a mod, but i have seen many gun models in many games and none are as obstructive as the LMG with muzzle flash, it has to have been done on purpose. And i dissagree with whoever made that decision.
The reason I never used this gun was the muzzle flash was HUGE. massive. it covered up more then half the screen, and made aiming at anything almost impossible. The screen also shook in an annoying manner. I never used that gun, even though the offensive power and ROF was nice, not to mention the attached GL. It was simply so annoying and hard to aim.
This is a good example of using weapon firing effects to balance a weapon to some degree.
If you can't keep a target acquired as a skulk, thats because you're just holding down bite rather than selecting your targets. Sure, it's harder, but all the people arguing for a more skill based experience will like that, right?
It's not less skill, it's just different skill. If you are worried that you don't have that skill yet, then I kindly advise you that this is because you've been abusing an exploit to get around having to learn it.
Nicator
There's no whinging happening. Posts like yours are completely un-needed.
It's about the FUGLY skulk bite. It's just TOO atmosphere breaking. I mean, having eyes inside the mouth is not only totally ludicrous, but **** restrictive too. It feels like your stuck in a sub, and looking out the viewhole. Also, whereas claw attacks actually look like your smacking them, the bite attack looks like you're taking a picture of them. That's the only significant dislike I have of NS.
"Clearly thinking through" balance changes doesn't help. You have to play the changes to see how they work, and you have to have a lot of people playing them. Balancing in your head or on paper only gets you so far.
"Clearly thinking through" balance changes doesn't help. You have to play the changes to see how they work, and you have to have a lot of people playing them. Balancing in your head or on paper only gets you so far.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed flarya, then tell those in sYn/ReD that keep telling me 'flarya said bunnhopping will be kept in for skulks'
I did state the fact I just 'heard' it, no way an official statement from you.
Anyway i've emailed you from the account david@ukname.net on something that'd help you, since I am quite experienced when it comes down to testing software/games, I'd like to offer my input with the help of the euro players (top clans and such) before you go ahead and release the final 1.04 to the masses. (In a professional form)
Else you may likely just shift the balance flaws as they currently are to a new area of the game, yet to be discovered.
Excuse my attitude yesterday, I was in a rather bad mood with some real life issues.
Muzzle flash never bothered me. I know where my crosshair is - I don't need to look at it to be reminded. I know well enough where the skulk is at close range. Besides, since skulks jump around like hyperactive lemmings, knowing where they are is not half as important as trying to guess where they will be.
Every single thing complained about on this thread has nothing to do with 1.04.
Every thing complained about on this thread has nothing to with balance issues.
The subject shouldn't be called "Balance Issues 1.04". It should be called "Things that bother me about NS".
I'd be sorely tempted to ban every major participant of this thread if I were a mod. For life. Or at the very least, rename the thread.
Muzzle flash never bothered me. I know where my crosshair is - I don't need to look at it to be reminded. I know well enough where the skulk is at close range. Besides, since skulks jump around like hyperactive lemmings, knowing where they are is not half as important as trying to guess where they will be.
Every single thing complained about on this thread has nothing to do with 1.04.
Every thing complained about on this thread has nothing to with balance issues.
The subject shouldn't be called "Balance Issues 1.04". It should be called "Things that bother me about NS".
I'd be sorely tempted to ban every major participant of this thread if I were a mod. For life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehe, however your wrong.
the games being balanced on an unbalanced problem...
r_draw 0 gives an advantage to marines, then add the fact marines are being weakended in so many ways (because in pro games they always won). When they implement r_draw 1 as a constant we'll only end up with aliens being the stronger side.
I'm thinking it won't influence balance MUCH. I imagine there's not that many players who know about the r_draw console functionality. I consider myself somewhat half-life literate, and I didn't know about it.
So I'm thinking this will only influence the small percentage of the players. Those players who happen to have learned to rely on using half-life console tricks to weigh the game in their advantage.
Frankly, I'd be happy to see all sorts of bad things happen to that percentage of players.
All the stratagys I've heard about top clans using revolve around getting moving so fast that by the time the enemy skulks have carapice they're attacking well defended positions. (assuming the marines haven't just rushed the first hive)
As such the changes were needed to slow the marines down, what puzzles me is that on all the 1.04 servers I played on the alien re-spawn bug stopped any meaningfull balance tests.
BlueGhost
how do people NOT NOTICE THIS? The very first time i fired up NS and fired that marine gun i INSTANTLY was like "pffft, ok thats hella gotta go"
Here's what I would do...
Take my knife.
Apply viciously to barrel, cutting gas vent notches.
Fire, and enjoy a clear view using 'tek-knaw-legg-ee' that's been around since WW1...
Me, I mentally piece together what little the gun and muzzle flash blocks out.
I don't need to be reminded where the crosshair is, so it doesn't bother me at all that the crosshair is obscured by the muzzle flash. I'm not trying to get my crosshair over the target, I'm trying to center a certain already known point of the screen on the target.
I don't need to keep an eye on a skulk when it's close enough to be under my gun and muzzle flash polygon. It moves too fast to make a difference. Instead, I try to anticipate it's moves.
a) fire in bursts
b) pray and spray
c) uppdate the refreshrate of your eye-brain
and as for the you can kill you cant kill issue it all comes down to: skill-lag, skill-lag of opponents and wheter or not you are wearing your lucky underwear
Wowwww. How long can they argue over the same thing? I didnt feel like reading pages 2-4, so I skipped to 5. Sadly, the stupid "5 skulk/"skulk" argument is STILL continuing! LET IT GO! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->