I like the idea of silence making you invisible to motion tracking. At the very least, such an upgrade should make motion tracking mostly useless, thus making movement chambers a viable first-hive build.
The hit to sensory/cloaking is.. well.. interesting. I like how cloaking is sped up depending on how many chambers, but I'm undecided on the actual visibility of the cloak itself. On one hand, it defeats the purpose of cloaking, but on the other it means that aliens will need to be a -bit- more clever in where they hide. So, no more hiding out in the open. This takes a bit away from the fun on the alien side, and the shock value on the marines side, but overall I think it makes everyone have to think a little bit more. That can't be bad, can it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 18 2003, 06:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 18 2003, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bigtoy, point taken. I am much more interested in improving the gameplay then endless bug-fixing, so sometimes I let tweaking get the best of me. 1.04 started out as a simple bug/exploit fix, but more exploits and problems kept coming up, and I just kept working on it. I want the gameplay to be a bit better in this patch as well, so there's more interesting stuff to do during the downtime while I work on v1.1, but I fear the tweaking is now slowing things down too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, I hear you man. I develop software for head-end equipment for the communications industry. It is always hard to put out a pure "bug-fix" image. The desire to make other improvements is always there.
Fortunately/Unfortunately my industry has learned that trying to do both mandatory bug fixes (mandatory can be subjective, but barely so) and making desirable but non-necesary improvements (a very subjective area) do not mix. The customers are never happy becuase their bugs are not resolved in a timely fasion, and usually introduction of product improvements with bug fixes just create more bugs.
I am in no way proposing that you change what and how you are working. It works for you and that is all that matters. NS is a wonderful creation and I greatly appreciate all your efforts.
<!--QuoteBegin--bigtoy_j+Jan 18 2003, 02:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bigtoy_j @ Jan 18 2003, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 18 2003, 06:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 18 2003, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bigtoy, point taken. I am much more interested in improving the gameplay then endless bug-fixing, so sometimes I let tweaking get the best of me. 1.04 started out as a simple bug/exploit fix, but more exploits and problems kept coming up, and I just kept working on it. I want the gameplay to be a bit better in this patch as well, so there's more interesting stuff to do during the downtime while I work on v1.1, but I fear the tweaking is now slowing things down too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, I hear you man. I develop software for head-end equipment for the communications industry. It is always hard to put out a pure "bug-fix" image. The desire to make other improvements is always there.
Fortunately/Unfortunately my industry has learned that trying to do both mandatory bug fixes (mandatory can be subjective, but barely so) and making desirable but non-necesary improvements (a very subjective area) do not mix. The customers are never happy becuase their bugs are not resolved in a timely fasion, and usually introduction of product improvements with bug fixes just create more bugs.
I am in no way proposing that you change what and how you are working. It works for you and that is all that matters. NS is a wonderful creation and I greatly appreciate all your efforts.
-- Bigtoy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flayra, I second BigToy's assessment. As a software engineer myself, I know how difficult it is to engineer and maintain a product as complex as NS. You will _never_ satisfy everyone. I heartily congratulate you on the good work you've done so far and appreciate your efforts. I play NS almost as much as I work !
<!--QuoteBegin--Speedy+Jan 18 2003, 03:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speedy @ Jan 18 2003, 03:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I play NS almost as much as I work !<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if that's a good thing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd prefer that as the level of cloak increases, the time AND the transparency both increase at some rate within some range. But I will sorely miss total invisibility.
<!--QuoteBegin--Speedy+Jan 18 2003, 08:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speedy @ Jan 18 2003, 08:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Flayra, I second BigToy's assessment. As a software engineer myself, I know how difficult it is to engineer and maintain a product as complex as NS. You will _never_ satisfy everyone. I heartily congratulate you on the good work you've done so far and appreciate your efforts. I play NS almost as much as I work !
Speedy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup a user is NEVER satisfied just remember to catagorise your changes, bug fixes, new functions etc into Must, Should, Could and Wont's <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't try to make everything. They won't remember how fast you did it, just how good you made it.
Well I do NOT like the idea of cloaking making you not totally invisible. However I like the idea of speeding up cloaking depending on the LvL. As it was said before, make cloaking "weaker" will definitly NOT make Sensory a "better" first pick against a defence chamber with improved regeneration ! Cloaking LvL 1 is totally useless... unless the Marines are blind. Cloaking LvL 2 MAY be usefull, but it really depends on the gamma settings of the Marine player's monitor (btw: I consider turning up gamma to see better in dark corner as some kind of cheating... flame on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and the experience of the player... if he does not see you when you are cloaked LvL 2, he probably would not have seen you even if you were not cloaked in most cases. Cloaking LvL 3 ist the only way to provide you with a real benefit wich is not negated by things like gamma settings... so this is the only LvL cloaking can be used tactically. I'd LOVE to see cloaking to be a possible first pick (since I think cloaking is only really usefull in early game when the marines do not have motion Tracking... but most players seem to be too straight-headed t think of some tactical variations from time to time *sigh*), but that would need some improvements to the chamber itself and the upgrades (not downgrade as the cloaking is supposed to change). If you want a chamber to be first pick, it should have the abillity to be usefull at the "front line" ! In 99% of the games I've played, 3 sensory chambers where put somewhere in a corner near the last hive and that's it... Defence Chamber first is not only so popular because of the upgrades... it's also because the chamber itself can be used anywhere without being ineffective. Ok, Sensory Chambers could (perhaps should) be used at the front lines, but their abillity to parasite enemies is way too weak... A Marine must be quite uncareful or blind to be parasited by a Sensory Chamber. The Message "The enemy approaches" is not very usefull yet, too... first it does not show you WHERE on the hive sight... and second unless the Sensory Chamber is standing somewhere all alone I can see the Marine opening fire on the other chambers on the hive sight anyway a few seconds later. Sensory Chamber would be quite more useful if they provided something like a local "scent of fear" marking every marine nearby for all aliens on the hive sight... also the parasite range for the Sensory Chambers should be increased, so that the Marine gets marked even if he's not dumb enough to bumb into the chamber first. I could also imagine Sensory Chambers to provide nearby turrets with better aim (somehow the first 2-3 shots always seem to miss the marines even if they do not move !)... thinking about that Movement Chambers could slightly increase nearby turet's rate of fire. This way all 3 Chambers could provide a worthful addition to the usual "Walls of Lame".
So what? We don't get 100% cloaking, big deal. A marine bumped into my 66% cloaked gorge body and had no idea what it was. He looked at me, then looked forward, and proceed to jump over me and start to knife my RT. Well, lets just say he was surprised to see his name with a healing spray kill next to it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not sure why all the boosts to Defencive Chamber effectiveness. Sure, added redemption effectiveness is good because it often doesn't work fast enough - I often die AFTER redeeming. Regeneration is alot going to be alot more tempting at double potency - as it is in 1.03 I have to put myself under sustained fire to get killed with regeneration. With double potency I'll be neigh invulnerable: Carapace be damned!
Oh well, at least this boosts alien 1 hive effectiveness, albiet for the wrong reason: because aliens always take defence first.
While cloaking engaging faster does make it somewhat more tempting, I don't like the idea of cloaking not being completely invisible, even though it activates quickly. I'm under the impression that completely invisible is much more bulletproof against somebody that cranks up their gamma to the max. Might as well go with varyign levels of invisibility scaling up to complete invisiblity and make the mairnes rely on motion tracking to couneract it.
From what I'd heard, gamma values were locked in 1.04e. Is this correct or no? If so, cranking up your gamma (in game) wouldn't be possible and cloaking would be fine.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hypergrip+Jan 18 2003, 04:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hypergrip @ Jan 18 2003, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want a chamber to be first pick, it should have the abillity to be usefull at the "front line" ! In 99% of the games I've played, 3 sensory chambers where put somewhere in a corner near the last hive and that's it... Defence Chamber first is not only so popular because of the upgrades... it's also because the chamber itself can be used anywhere without being ineffective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo.
if the devs want all three chambers to be equally viable, this should be their main focus (behind comm enhancements of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) for the 1.1 client patch. I made a thread in suggestion forums a while ago with the same point...the main advantage of def chambers over the other two is that it is VERY useful on the battlefield, while the others are ho-hum. def chambers are the ONLY chambers which that are built more than three times.
I didn't see anything on 1.04e's patch notes about gamma being locked.
Even if it was, it wouldn't matter, you can crank the Direct3D/OpenGL Gamma levels from the monitor control panel on a level Half-life can't change. Often just cranking up the brightness on your monitor works.
Partial invisibility just doesn't hack it. I say go full invisiblity, and if marines want to see if there's an alien there they can shoot in that direction and watch for blood.
Ugh. I really don't like the new sensory chamber if lvl 3 sensory will not give you full cloak.
Here's the way I look at the changes, and wonder how sensory is any better now:
Before 1.04f: a gorge could build 3 relatively inexpensive sensory chamber and allow the skulks to be 100% invisible when cloaked.
After 1.04f: a gorge can build 3 relatively inexpensive sensory chamber and the skulks will never be 100% cloaked.
If one were to look at an advantage/disadvantage aspect of the new sensory chamber one would find that:
advantage: making just 1 or 2 sensory chamber will now make kharaa very close to 100% invisible (but not quite)
disadvantage: kharaa will never be 100% invisible.
Now factor in the fact that it is never hard to build 3 of one sort of chamber (and therefore is never hard to get lvl 3 ANYTHING) the advantage will never be felt, and the disadvantage certainly will be.
This is only comparing old sensory and new sensory. Imagine now factoring in new sensory vs defense chamber (even with its cuts to carapace) and it isn't even a fair matchup.
I say: leave the sensory chamber to how it is now, and make the sensory chamber an effective front line chamber. Make it shoot parasite blobs with the same accuracy and rate of an offense chamber (but not doing any damage), as well as automatically show on hivesight any enemies it has in view. With this change I will DEFINITELY consider using it as a one hive chamber.
100% cloak was a touch on the cheesy side of the force in any event. Look at AvP2, you can still see a cloaked predator if you look really, really hard, it's just hard to spot to the point that he's effectively invisible. So you can't stand in the middle of a bright, heavily-traveled hallway anymore, big deal. A cloaked alien should be hiding intelligently, such as up on the ceiling or by some boxes where they're more likely to be missed. This way it actually requires some degree of thought to use cloaking beyond just praying that it kicks in before those marines round the corner.
However, I also feel that cloaking could use a helping hand as far as moving goes. Since, to the best of my knowledge, there is no 'walk' speed for Kharaa, trying to move slowly while cloaked involves tapping forward and blindly hoping that you haven't just moved too fast. They could really use a button that slows them down to the point that they won't break cloak by moving. Or, say, a cloaked alien automatically moves at that slower speed, unless they jump or attack to break the cloak, at which point their full speed kicks back in.
with these new changes to cloaking i have decided to make my map 25% more darker, and add 80% more sharp corners and vertical drops/risers and 10% more solid world beams.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--DocZ+Jan 18 2003, 07:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DocZ @ Jan 18 2003, 07:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now factor in the fact that it is never hard to build 3 of one sort of chamber (and therefore is never hard to get lvl 3 ANYTHING) the advantage will never be felt, and the disadvantage certainly will be. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you are wrong. It IS indeed HARD and COSTLY to build three chambers early on in the game. When your income is 10 res per minute, paying 10 or 30 res is a huge difference - especially as those minutes are going directly towards the hive build time.
The advantage of the new sensor vs the old is that you can spend 10 res VERY early on, and get a very nice and cost-effective cloaking effect, that will give an immediate and large effect. That is, most of the effect of sensory will come with the first chamber.
You can then build sensory-RT-RT-RT-hive-2xsensory, which gets you the sensory effect at the 2 minute point, about, and costs about a minute on the hive speed (about as fast as RT-DC-RT-RT-hive).
Today, to get the same effect, you would need to build RT-sensoryx3-RT-RT-hive, which means the sensory will only kick in after 4.5 minutes, and full effect at about 6 minutes. In addition, it will cost you about 3 minutes on 2nd hive time. Just too late and too expensive, especially for an upgrade that is valueable ONLY at the start of the game.
With the new sensory, you will have a useful version when the marines are doing their first major push from base, instead of when they are setting up in your second hive (at which time it is - of course - too late to get any use from it).
Personally, I favor the change. It makes sense. Of course, it is still not as good as defense, but that's due to the limited uses of sensory chambers, the way MT works, and the uselessness of ambush in the mid game. I don't think all those things can be fixed in a 1.0x patch, but at least this makes it a little less stupid to go sensory.
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It IS indeed HARD and COSTLY to build three chambers early on in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you are wrong. It is not hard and costly to make three chambers early on in the game. It's all about having a good build order. I can do a 2RT 3DC build all the time and get a very fast second hive when I gorge. Just go RT RT dc dc dc, then wait for skulk overflow to kick in (comes very quickly). Since sensories cost less, it's even EASIER. As it is now, doing a RT RT sc sc sc build is VERY easy and provides 100% cloaking (not to say it's better than a defense chamber build, but sure is better than the new 1.04f sensory)
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I favor the change. It makes sense. Of course, it is still not as good as defense, but that's due to the limited uses of sensory chambers, the way MT works, and the uselessness of ambush in the mid game. I don't think all those things can be fixed in a 1.0x patch, but at least this makes it a little less stupid to go sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, well lets make sensories shoot parasites at anything in LOS, Get movement towers to work like phase gates: One tower to the other, they become a quick response kind of thing, and have a sensory upgrade that makes a target immune to motion tracking. Lvl1- 5 meter radius movement before being detected by motion. Lvl2- 25 meter. Lvl3- Infinite.
Of course, you'd be trading in veing able to hide visually for mechanical invisability. A fair trade, I think. Do this, and sensory is viable for both early and mid game.
With the phase gate like-ness of motion, motion becomes useful early-mid game when fades show up, and stays useful all teh way through.
Lets make defense all round, by decreasing it's area-effect healing, and taking lvl 3 carapace down a bit. We should be OK.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Speaking as one that full cloaking has saved numerous times in the past, this is going to be a pain if it stays at 90% cloaking for the actual release. My RP will more likely go to Scent of Fear, without the ability to duck around a corner, hunker down, go inviso, and let the Marines run past so I can limp back to base and heal up. Or just stand in a doorway and let the Marines be confused as to why they can't get through it, even without chomping the heck out of them.
I'd actually, if any changes were to be made, like to see the 'stepped' cloaking mentioned above, with a twist. Since you can currently move while cloaked, albeit slowly, let the chamber level denote the level at which you de-cloak. So level 1 takes 10 seconds to cloak to step through the levels to complete invisibility, and must remain still, excepting mouselook-turning, to stay invisible. Level 2 takes 6 seconds to reach fully-invisible, and can wiggle around (figure at about marine crouchwalking-backward speed). Level 3 takes three seconds (or maybe a little less, even) and you can move at marine crouched forward-speed. Speed it up to crouchwalk-backward/crouch/standard walk for a more intense game, where the spot you shot before and got blood just isn't there any more... but you didn't get a kill yet.
Also, with the Silence-making-you-invisible-to-motion-tracking idea that's been put forward numerous times, this would allow for viable assassins, without the huge motion-tracking circle blazed all over you when you're just standing there and hiding, or trying to duck away and fake out the Marines into charging off past you down an empty corridor somewhere.
Would bring both of them up from niche upgrades, used only by those extreme few who don't mind dying repeatedly for the one 'aint it cool' shot they get on an unwary Marine who was too blind to see their halo.
On the Marine side of this, it'd be nice if in v1.04 you got an 'offscreen arrow' for the motion tracking to counterpoint this. So any Aliens in a certain radius from you get a directional blip, making it harder to sneak up from behind or drop down from above. Perhaps load it into a second Observatory upgrade/research level.
As it stands now (or 1.04e anyway), the balance seems to have shifted back to the Marine side, even on pubs, with no teamwork of which to speak. It's easy for a skilled twitch-Marine to rip through four or five attacking Skulks with a non-upgraded LMG and pistol, regardless of Carapace level. Hopefully the 1.04f carapace changes will fix that back to 1.03 levels, so that Skulks stand half a chance in the midgame, much less the late, for those of us who enjoy running around under Celerity as distractions/extra armor for the higher priced, lower-armored Fades.
Feedback on a beta idea is different than complaining about a released version; in the beta, it's under testing to see if it's a good idea or not.
I also agree that taking away full cloaking is a huge nerf, especially on bright maps like Tantlith and Hera. As it stands, sensory is the tower standing in the corner of the third hive. Changes should be made to make it useful enough that it's worth using over defense as the first tower, and taking away full cloaking isn't going to do it. Something must be done to make Sensory worth having in the field. Such as:
o Sensory's SHOOT parasites at any Marine it sees. ( Currently, it must touch a Marine to parasite, but is practically useless because Sensory is normally in the corner of the third hive, as usual. )
o Cloaking negates Motion Tracking, possibly as soon as Cloaking kicks in. Maybe have Motion Tracking unable to track Aliens with Cloaking at all. ( As a Marine, I find myself relying solely on Motion Tracking while moving around the maps, looking for the blips instead of worrying about aliens themselves. Doing this would keep the Marines being cautious while moving around. )
o Sensory's act similar to the Marine's Observatory. Marines in the (area of effect) of the Sensory chamber would show up on Hive Sight, but not be parasited, like they would if another Alien was looking at the Marine. ( This would be EXTREMELY useful for making the Sensory tower not just a corner-of-the-hive building. And would almost be as useful as having in the field as a Defense tower, since it would be an extremely effective early-warning system.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fina+Jan 18 2003, 12:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fina @ Jan 18 2003, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->o Sensory's act similar to the Marine's Observatory. Marines in the (area of effect) of the Sensory chamber would show up on Hive Sight, but not be parasited, like they would if another Alien was looking at the Marine. ( This would be EXTREMELY useful for making the Sensory tower not just a corner-of-the-hive building. And would almost be as useful as having in the field as a Defense tower, since it would be an extremely effective early-warning system.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Already does, but at a very limited range.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--DocZ+Jan 18 2003, 09:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DocZ @ Jan 18 2003, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jan 18 2003, 09:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It IS indeed HARD and COSTLY to build three chambers early on in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where you are wrong. It is not hard and costly to make three chambers early on in the game. It's all about having a good build order. I can do a 2RT 3DC build all the time and get a very fast second hive when I gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems to depend on your definition of "early in the game". Personally, I think of the first 5-6 minutes in the game as early game. You have just built the 2nd RT, the marines have locked down one hive and the battle for the second hive is just starting.
If you want to give your skulks an early game advantage (ie, in the first 6 minutes), you have to build the upgrade chamber before the first RT. At that time, the gorge income is just 10 res/min, so the lower cost of the sensory means it will kick in 20 seconds earlier than the DC upgrade, meaning you will get to build the first RT 20 seconds earlier as well, which in turn allows you to build the third RT 30 seconds earlier. Every second counts.
Also, with the skulk nerf[1] in 1.04, skulks will go 9/12/13/19 with carapace levels instead of the 1.03 9/14/18/19. That is, you need to build three DC's to get full advantage of carapace. Thus, DC first isn't going to be as good a strat as it is today. Now, if sensory wasn't as useless as it is on attack ...
2RT, 3DC doesn't give any advantage to early game play. It's a useful build against not-so-good marines on pubs though (though I prefer 2RT,DC,DC,RT - the third DC only gives the skulks one more LMG hit). Clan games, the standard is DC-RT-DC, and the marines usually win because good marine >> good skulk, early game.
[1] Well, its a carapace nerf that only affects early game skulks.
As someone stated above, the usefulness of a defense and offense turret is that they provide support on the battlefield. To balance out the other turrets, make them just as viable.
Sensory chambers shoot parasites at any marine in view, but will only tag each marine once. No need to make them offense chambers too, with that 10 HP per parasite bit <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Movement chambers offer a boost of speed or ROF for those nearby. Towers shoot a little faster or more accurately. Aliens move faster or have pseudo-adrenaline, but only within a certain radius. Things like that.
>> A marine bumped into my 66% cloaked gorge body and had no idea what it was. He looked at me, then looked forward, and proceed to jump over me and start to knife my RT.
Uh...well congratulations you have met a n00b... What sort of idiot would do that? Only one that was not really an idiot but simply new to the game - your example is awful.
>> 100% cloak was a touch on the cheesy side of the force in any event. Look at AvP2, you can still see a cloaked predator if you look really, really hard, it's just hard to spot to the point that he's effectively invisible. So you can't stand in the middle of a bright, heavily-traveled hallway anymore, big deal.
Kitsune, I am going to take a punt here and say you have never used cloaking before. Cheesy? The simple fact that 100% cloak was still considered far less useful that level 1 carapace for most cases should tell you that such a defensive, reactive skill is anything but ''cheese".
But your comparision is severely flawed. Firstly, if you are perfectly still, AvP2 cloaking in 100% effective. Oh it is possible to sometimes spot the faintest outline if you know where they are beforehand and are in a very well lit area and just mucking around, but I have NEVER been seen in AvP2 when still in a game. Never. But futher, AvP2 cloaking WORKS EVEN IF YOU MOVE!! It's % cloak simply reduces the faster you move. This turns it from a reactive ambush skill into an offensive one - totally changing the nature of play and its power. Yet it still manages to not be overpowered.
Imperfect cloaking in a game where it is KNOWN that cloaking is imperfect and only works when you don't move? Please...I'll just keep my 2 res thankyou.
Comments
The hit to sensory/cloaking is.. well.. interesting. I like how cloaking is sped up depending on how many chambers, but I'm undecided on the actual visibility of the cloak itself. On one hand, it defeats the purpose of cloaking, but on the other it means that aliens will need to be a -bit- more clever in where they hide. So, no more hiding out in the open. This takes a bit away from the fun on the alien side, and the shock value on the marines side, but overall I think it makes everyone have to think a little bit more. That can't be bad, can it?
Flayra, I hear you man. I develop software for head-end equipment for the communications industry. It is always hard to put out a pure "bug-fix" image. The desire to make other improvements is always there.
Fortunately/Unfortunately my industry has learned that trying to do both mandatory bug fixes (mandatory can be subjective, but barely so) and making desirable but non-necesary improvements (a very subjective area) do not mix. The customers are never happy becuase their bugs are not resolved in a timely fasion, and usually introduction of product improvements with bug fixes just create more bugs.
I am in no way proposing that you change what and how you are working. It works for you and that is all that matters. NS is a wonderful creation and I greatly appreciate all your efforts.
-- Bigtoy
Flayra, I hear you man. I develop software for head-end equipment for the communications industry. It is always hard to put out a pure "bug-fix" image. The desire to make other improvements is always there.
Fortunately/Unfortunately my industry has learned that trying to do both mandatory bug fixes (mandatory can be subjective, but barely so) and making desirable but non-necesary improvements (a very subjective area) do not mix. The customers are never happy becuase their bugs are not resolved in a timely fasion, and usually introduction of product improvements with bug fixes just create more bugs.
I am in no way proposing that you change what and how you are working. It works for you and that is all that matters. NS is a wonderful creation and I greatly appreciate all your efforts.
-- Bigtoy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra,
I second BigToy's assessment. As a software engineer myself, I know how difficult it is to engineer and maintain a product as complex as NS. You will _never_ satisfy everyone. I heartily congratulate you on the good work you've done so far and appreciate your efforts. I play NS almost as much as I work !
Speedy
I don't know if that's a good thing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Will silence affect the cloak noise, though?
I second BigToy's assessment. As a software engineer myself, I know how difficult it is to engineer and maintain a product as complex as NS. You will _never_ satisfy everyone. I heartily congratulate you on the good work you've done so far and appreciate your efforts. I play NS almost as much as I work !
Speedy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup a user is NEVER satisfied
just remember to catagorise your changes, bug fixes, new functions etc into Must, Should, Could and Wont's <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Don't try to make everything.
They won't remember how fast you did it, just how good you made it.
However I like the idea of speeding up cloaking depending on the LvL.
As it was said before, make cloaking "weaker" will definitly NOT make Sensory a "better" first pick against a defence chamber with improved regeneration !
Cloaking LvL 1 is totally useless... unless the Marines are blind.
Cloaking LvL 2 MAY be usefull, but it really depends on the gamma settings of the Marine player's monitor (btw: I consider turning up gamma to see better in dark corner as some kind of cheating... flame on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and the experience of the player... if he does not see you when you are cloaked LvL 2, he probably would not have seen you even if you were not cloaked in most cases.
Cloaking LvL 3 ist the only way to provide you with a real benefit wich is not negated by things like gamma settings... so this is the only LvL cloaking can be used tactically.
I'd LOVE to see cloaking to be a possible first pick (since I think cloaking is only really usefull in early game when the marines do not have motion Tracking... but most players seem to be too straight-headed t think of some tactical variations from time to time *sigh*), but that would need some improvements to the chamber itself and the upgrades (not downgrade as the cloaking is supposed to change).
If you want a chamber to be first pick, it should have the abillity to be usefull at the "front line" !
In 99% of the games I've played, 3 sensory chambers where put somewhere in a corner near the last hive and that's it...
Defence Chamber first is not only so popular because of the upgrades... it's also because the chamber itself can be used anywhere without being ineffective.
Ok, Sensory Chambers could (perhaps should) be used at the front lines, but their abillity to parasite enemies is way too weak... A Marine must be quite uncareful or blind to be parasited by a Sensory Chamber.
The Message "The enemy approaches" is not very usefull yet, too... first it does not show you WHERE on the hive sight... and second unless the Sensory Chamber is standing somewhere all alone I can see the Marine opening fire on the other chambers on the hive sight anyway a few seconds later.
Sensory Chamber would be quite more useful if they provided something like a local "scent of fear" marking every marine nearby for all aliens on the hive sight... also the parasite range for the Sensory Chambers should be increased, so that the Marine gets marked even if he's not dumb enough to bumb into the chamber first.
I could also imagine Sensory Chambers to provide nearby turrets with better aim (somehow the first 2-3 shots always seem to miss the marines even if they do not move !)... thinking about that Movement Chambers could slightly increase nearby turet's rate of fire.
This way all 3 Chambers could provide a worthful addition to the usual "Walls of Lame".
Greetz
-=HyPeR=-
--Frahg
Note: I only read the first 3-5 posts.
Does this mean that every level will be 100% cloaked, but faster to cloak? Or level 3 is still the only 100% cloaked level?
Oh well, at least this boosts alien 1 hive effectiveness, albiet for the wrong reason: because aliens always take defence first.
While cloaking engaging faster does make it somewhat more tempting, I don't like the idea of cloaking not being completely invisible, even though it activates quickly. I'm under the impression that completely invisible is much more bulletproof against somebody that cranks up their gamma to the max. Might as well go with varyign levels of invisibility scaling up to complete invisiblity and make the mairnes rely on motion tracking to couneract it.
In 99% of the games I've played, 3 sensory chambers where put somewhere in a corner near the last hive and that's it...
Defence Chamber first is not only so popular because of the upgrades... it's also because the chamber itself can be used anywhere without being ineffective.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo.
if the devs want all three chambers to be equally viable, this should be their main focus (behind comm enhancements of course <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) for the 1.1 client patch. I made a thread in suggestion forums a while ago with the same point...the main advantage of def chambers over the other two is that it is VERY useful on the battlefield, while the others are ho-hum. def chambers are the ONLY chambers which that are built more than three times.
Even if it was, it wouldn't matter, you can crank the Direct3D/OpenGL Gamma levels from the monitor control panel on a level Half-life can't change. Often just cranking up the brightness on your monitor works.
Partial invisibility just doesn't hack it. I say go full invisiblity, and if marines want to see if there's an alien there they can shoot in that direction and watch for blood.
Here's the way I look at the changes, and wonder how sensory is any better now:
Before 1.04f: a gorge could build 3 relatively inexpensive sensory chamber and allow the skulks to be 100% invisible when cloaked.
After 1.04f: a gorge can build 3 relatively inexpensive sensory chamber and the skulks will never be 100% cloaked.
If one were to look at an advantage/disadvantage aspect of the new sensory chamber one would find that:
advantage: making just 1 or 2 sensory chamber will now make kharaa very close to 100% invisible (but not quite)
disadvantage: kharaa will never be 100% invisible.
Now factor in the fact that it is never hard to build 3 of one sort of chamber (and therefore is never hard to get lvl 3 ANYTHING) the advantage will never be felt, and the disadvantage certainly will be.
This is only comparing old sensory and new sensory. Imagine now factoring in new sensory vs defense chamber (even with its cuts to carapace) and it isn't even a fair matchup.
I say: leave the sensory chamber to how it is now, and make the sensory chamber an effective front line chamber. Make it shoot parasite blobs with the same accuracy and rate of an offense chamber (but not doing any damage), as well as automatically show on hivesight any enemies it has in view. With this change I will DEFINITELY consider using it as a one hive chamber.
However, I also feel that cloaking could use a helping hand as far as moving goes. Since, to the best of my knowledge, there is no 'walk' speed for Kharaa, trying to move slowly while cloaked involves tapping forward and blindly hoping that you haven't just moved too fast. They could really use a button that slows them down to the point that they won't break cloak by moving. Or, say, a cloaked alien automatically moves at that slower speed, unless they jump or attack to break the cloak, at which point their full speed kicks back in.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
cloak,
drop,
chomp!
skulkified.
Now factor in the fact that it is never hard to build 3 of one sort of chamber (and therefore is never hard to get lvl 3 ANYTHING) the advantage will never be felt, and the disadvantage certainly will be.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where you are wrong. It IS indeed HARD and COSTLY to build three chambers early on in the game. When your income is 10 res per minute, paying 10 or 30 res is a huge difference - especially as those minutes are going directly towards the hive build time.
The advantage of the new sensor vs the old is that you can spend 10 res VERY early on, and get a very nice and cost-effective cloaking effect, that will give an immediate and large effect. That is, most of the effect of sensory will come with the first chamber.
You can then build sensory-RT-RT-RT-hive-2xsensory, which gets you the sensory effect at the 2 minute point, about, and costs about a minute on the hive speed (about as fast as RT-DC-RT-RT-hive).
Today, to get the same effect, you would need to build RT-sensoryx3-RT-RT-hive, which means the sensory will only kick in after 4.5 minutes, and full effect at about 6 minutes. In addition, it will cost you about 3 minutes on 2nd hive time. Just too late and too expensive, especially for an upgrade that is valueable ONLY at the start of the game.
With the new sensory, you will have a useful version when the marines are doing their first major push from base, instead of when they are setting up in your second hive (at which time it is - of course - too late to get any use from it).
Personally, I favor the change. It makes sense. Of course, it is still not as good as defense, but that's due to the limited uses of sensory chambers, the way MT works, and the uselessness of ambush in the mid game. I don't think all those things can be fixed in a 1.0x patch, but at least this makes it a little less stupid to go sensory.
This is where you are wrong. It is not hard and costly to make three chambers early on in the game. It's all about having a good build order. I can do a 2RT 3DC build all the time and get a very fast second hive when I gorge. Just go RT RT dc dc dc, then wait for skulk overflow to kick in (comes very quickly). Since sensories cost less, it's even EASIER. As it is now, doing a RT RT sc sc sc build is VERY easy and provides 100% cloaking (not to say it's better than a defense chamber build, but sure is better than the new 1.04f sensory)
Ok, well lets make sensories shoot parasites at anything in LOS, Get movement towers to work like phase gates: One tower to the other, they become a quick response kind of thing, and have a sensory upgrade that makes a target immune to motion tracking. Lvl1- 5 meter radius movement before being detected by motion. Lvl2- 25 meter. Lvl3- Infinite.
Of course, you'd be trading in veing able to hide visually for mechanical invisability. A fair trade, I think. Do this, and sensory is viable for both early and mid game.
With the phase gate like-ness of motion, motion becomes useful early-mid game when fades show up, and stays useful all teh way through.
Lets make defense all round, by decreasing it's area-effect healing, and taking lvl 3 carapace down a bit. We should be OK.
I'd actually, if any changes were to be made, like to see the 'stepped' cloaking mentioned above, with a twist. Since you can currently move while cloaked, albeit slowly, let the chamber level denote the level at which you de-cloak. So level 1 takes 10 seconds to cloak to step through the levels to complete invisibility, and must remain still, excepting mouselook-turning, to stay invisible. Level 2 takes 6 seconds to reach fully-invisible, and can wiggle around (figure at about marine crouchwalking-backward speed). Level 3 takes three seconds (or maybe a little less, even) and you can move at marine crouched forward-speed. Speed it up to crouchwalk-backward/crouch/standard walk for a more intense game, where the spot you shot before and got blood just isn't there any more... but you didn't get a kill yet.
Also, with the Silence-making-you-invisible-to-motion-tracking idea that's been put forward numerous times, this would allow for viable assassins, without the huge motion-tracking circle blazed all over you when you're just standing there and hiding, or trying to duck away and fake out the Marines into charging off past you down an empty corridor somewhere.
Would bring both of them up from niche upgrades, used only by those extreme few who don't mind dying repeatedly for the one 'aint it cool' shot they get on an unwary Marine who was too blind to see their halo.
On the Marine side of this, it'd be nice if in v1.04 you got an 'offscreen arrow' for the motion tracking to counterpoint this. So any Aliens in a certain radius from you get a directional blip, making it harder to sneak up from behind or drop down from above. Perhaps load it into a second Observatory upgrade/research level.
As it stands now (or 1.04e anyway), the balance seems to have shifted back to the Marine side, even on pubs, with no teamwork of which to speak. It's easy for a skilled twitch-Marine to rip through four or five attacking Skulks with a non-upgraded LMG and pistol, regardless of Carapace level. Hopefully the 1.04f carapace changes will fix that back to 1.03 levels, so that Skulks stand half a chance in the midgame, much less the late, for those of us who enjoy running around under Celerity as distractions/extra armor for the higher priced, lower-armored Fades.
Feedback on a beta idea is different than complaining about a released version; in the beta, it's under testing to see if it's a good idea or not.
o Sensory's SHOOT parasites at any Marine it sees. ( Currently, it must touch a Marine to parasite, but is practically useless because Sensory is normally in the corner of the third hive, as usual. )
o Cloaking negates Motion Tracking, possibly as soon as Cloaking kicks in. Maybe have Motion Tracking unable to track Aliens with Cloaking at all. ( As a Marine, I find myself relying solely on Motion Tracking while moving around the maps, looking for the blips instead of worrying about aliens themselves. Doing this would keep the Marines being cautious while moving around. )
o Sensory's act similar to the Marine's Observatory. Marines in the (area of effect) of the Sensory chamber would show up on Hive Sight, but not be parasited, like they would if another Alien was looking at the Marine. ( This would be EXTREMELY useful for making the Sensory tower not just a corner-of-the-hive building. And would almost be as useful as having in the field as a Defense tower, since it would be an extremely effective early-warning system.
Already does, but at a very limited range.
This is where you are wrong. It is not hard and costly to make three chambers early on in the game. It's all about having a good build order. I can do a 2RT 3DC build all the time and get a very fast second hive when I gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems to depend on your definition of "early in the game". Personally, I think of the first 5-6 minutes in the game as early game. You have just built the 2nd RT, the marines have locked down one hive and the battle for the second hive is just starting.
If you want to give your skulks an early game advantage (ie, in the first 6 minutes), you have to build the upgrade chamber before the first RT. At that time, the gorge income is just 10 res/min, so the lower cost of the sensory means it will kick in 20 seconds earlier than the DC upgrade, meaning you will get to build the first RT 20 seconds earlier as well, which in turn allows you to build the third RT 30 seconds earlier. Every second counts.
Also, with the skulk nerf[1] in 1.04, skulks will go 9/12/13/19 with carapace levels instead of the 1.03 9/14/18/19. That is, you need to build three DC's to get full advantage of carapace. Thus, DC first isn't going to be as good a strat as it is today. Now, if sensory wasn't as useless as it is on attack ...
2RT, 3DC doesn't give any advantage to early game play. It's a useful build against not-so-good marines on pubs though (though I prefer 2RT,DC,DC,RT - the third DC only gives the skulks one more LMG hit). Clan games, the standard is DC-RT-DC, and the marines usually win because good marine >> good skulk, early game.
[1] Well, its a carapace nerf that only affects early game skulks.
~end of story~
<arrgh, why wouldn't it die?><!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->*snicker snicker*
Sensory chambers shoot parasites at any marine in view, but will only tag each marine once. No need to make them offense chambers too, with that 10 HP per parasite bit <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Movement chambers offer a boost of speed or ROF for those nearby. Towers shoot a little faster or more accurately. Aliens move faster or have pseudo-adrenaline, but only within a certain radius. Things like that.
Uh...well congratulations you have met a n00b...
What sort of idiot would do that? Only one that was not really an idiot but simply new to the game - your example is awful.
>> 100% cloak was a touch on the cheesy side of the force in any event. Look at AvP2, you can still see a cloaked predator if you look really, really hard, it's just hard to spot to the point that he's effectively invisible. So you can't stand in the middle of a bright, heavily-traveled hallway anymore, big deal.
Kitsune, I am going to take a punt here and say you have never used cloaking before.
Cheesy? The simple fact that 100% cloak was still considered far less useful that level 1 carapace for most cases should tell you that such a defensive, reactive skill is anything but ''cheese".
But your comparision is severely flawed. Firstly, if you are perfectly still, AvP2 cloaking in 100% effective. Oh it is possible to sometimes spot the faintest outline if you know where they are beforehand and are in a very well lit area and just mucking around, but I have NEVER been seen in AvP2 when still in a game. Never. But futher, AvP2 cloaking WORKS EVEN IF YOU MOVE!!
It's % cloak simply reduces the faster you move. This turns it from a reactive ambush skill into an offensive one - totally changing the nature of play and its power. Yet it still manages to not be overpowered.
Imperfect cloaking in a game where it is KNOWN that cloaking is imperfect and only works when you don't move? Please...I'll just keep my 2 res thankyou.