1.04e Carapace Changes
matso
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">All the guns & all the aliens!</div> So, just what does the 1.04e carapace change mean to the Kharaa?
The big changes in a nutshell:
1. Skulks now get NO benefit from lvl 3 carap. 9-14-16-16 vs lvl 0 LMG weapons (used to be 9-14-17-19). The only time lvl 3 carap is better than lvl 2 against an LMG is vs lvl 3 LMG bullets - at which time the skulk lives for 14 vs 13 bullets.
2. Lerks are really weird due to them dying due to health,with its roundoff. Currently, they die to 30-20-20-20 LMG bullets with carap lvl 3. The new progression is 20-20-20-15, ie vs lvl 0 LMG's, a lerk looses 1/3 of his damage taking ability, and 25% vs lvl 3 LMG's.
3. Fades with lvl 3 carap now dies easier - instead of 78 66 62 58, it now goes 65 61 57 50, ie vs lvl 0 LMG's,it takes 13 hits less to kill, vs lvl 3 8 hits less.
I'd suggest increasing skulk armor to 20/40 instead of the current 10/30. That would give them 10-14-18-19 and thus almost the same progression as today - going from 9 to 10 for the uncarapaced skulk is an extra benefit, IMO (20/45 would give 10-14-18-21, a very nice progression and almost identical to what it had prior to the carapace fix. Not certain if that is warranted as of yet).
Same reasoning for Onos, really. Going from 82 to 84 hits isn't much of a benefit from increasing carapace lvl 1 step. Of course, this doesn't really matter right now, as Onos (or Fades) with less than lvl 3 in carapace doesn't really happen. However, if "spread" upgrades are allowed (ie, picking 1 level of regen and 2 levels of carapace) then it needs to be fixed (as otherwise, no Onos would pick three levels of carapace).
ALL weapons vs ALL Kharaa armor levels in <a href='http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~matso/armor.xls' target='_blank'>this nice spreadsheet</a>. Play around with it all you like.
The big changes in a nutshell:
1. Skulks now get NO benefit from lvl 3 carap. 9-14-16-16 vs lvl 0 LMG weapons (used to be 9-14-17-19). The only time lvl 3 carap is better than lvl 2 against an LMG is vs lvl 3 LMG bullets - at which time the skulk lives for 14 vs 13 bullets.
2. Lerks are really weird due to them dying due to health,with its roundoff. Currently, they die to 30-20-20-20 LMG bullets with carap lvl 3. The new progression is 20-20-20-15, ie vs lvl 0 LMG's, a lerk looses 1/3 of his damage taking ability, and 25% vs lvl 3 LMG's.
3. Fades with lvl 3 carap now dies easier - instead of 78 66 62 58, it now goes 65 61 57 50, ie vs lvl 0 LMG's,it takes 13 hits less to kill, vs lvl 3 8 hits less.
I'd suggest increasing skulk armor to 20/40 instead of the current 10/30. That would give them 10-14-18-19 and thus almost the same progression as today - going from 9 to 10 for the uncarapaced skulk is an extra benefit, IMO (20/45 would give 10-14-18-21, a very nice progression and almost identical to what it had prior to the carapace fix. Not certain if that is warranted as of yet).
Same reasoning for Onos, really. Going from 82 to 84 hits isn't much of a benefit from increasing carapace lvl 1 step. Of course, this doesn't really matter right now, as Onos (or Fades) with less than lvl 3 in carapace doesn't really happen. However, if "spread" upgrades are allowed (ie, picking 1 level of regen and 2 levels of carapace) then it needs to be fixed (as otherwise, no Onos would pick three levels of carapace).
ALL weapons vs ALL Kharaa armor levels in <a href='http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~matso/armor.xls' target='_blank'>this nice spreadsheet</a>. Play around with it all you like.
Comments
I play games every single day of the week where the marine commander will play around and try stupid tactics like only giving the marines shotguns and jetpacks and marines STILL win, even when aliens play well. Its not that marines win every game, but its a big majority.
I see about 1 marine win in 10 games on 16-player public servers. You have to bear in mind that large servers favour marines, small favour aliens. I presume the developers are trying to balance 16-player servers?
The game needs to be balanced for 24 players, not 16. 16 is too few to have an exciting game on some of these maps.
Myself, and most of the people I know in NS, disagree.. I prefer 12-16 player servers, once you get to 18 the game gets to chaotic for me, not to mention the marines start getting a huge advantage at that point.
The biggest thing they need to do to balance higher player servers is reducing marine spawning times, and this would hurt the marines to much on lower player servers.. I dunno what they can do. This still wouldn't balance a 24 player server if the marines stick together, but it would make it closer.
It means my skulk now gets killed far more often than usual. I played a few games on a 1.04e server earlier today, and ended up with a 1:2 k/d ratio, at best. Not that I particularly care about my ratio, but it's usually the other way around, or even sometimes 3:1 or 4:1.
Seriously, it felt just like it was my first game of NS. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The game needs to be balanced for 24 players, not 16. 16 is too few to have an exciting game on some of these maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well barring the fact that...... NS is balanced for 6v6(12players), your point is good <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason for the unbalance is that due to 2x res from each node, the marines can build stuff twice as fast, as the extra players dont slow down the res intake. So in theory, they can take 2 hives at once, as they have duoble the res, so they dont have to take one, and then move on. Also this works even better, because there are so many marines, that they can cover a lot at a time.
On the aliens, the res intake IS slowed with a larger number of players, so they build about equally fast as with 1x res points. Therefore they can't get def up at the otehr hive as fast as marines can <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hell you could probably just make yourself 4 spawns in base give a WP to the active hive and sit back.
BlueGhost
The game needs to be balanced for 24 players, not 16. 16 is too few to have an exciting game on some of these maps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What servers are you playing on? I usually play 20-30 player servers, and I do'nt see much of a difference. Aliens still win (even in 1.04d/1.04e) a good 3/4 of the time. I understand marines have a bit of an advantage on the large servers, but only in the early game when aliens can't spawn as fast.
-JKooL
two games i just played--> if the marines do a tech rush of any kind
the aliens don't stand a chance
since skulks are weaker, we're screwed against more powerful guns, especially when the marines spawn camp
fades are weaker, i got killed nearly instantly from a HA/HMG about 2-3 feet away from me.
Both games, we had two hives. but we didn't have enough time to get fades, the first game we got 2 fades, one died instantly, and i survived for 5 minutes (before dieing like i said)
they kept taking down our second hive very easily
second game was even worse, 20 minutes into the game they had GL/HMG/Shotties Jetpacks and HA
they controlled pretty much every node on the map(not exaggerating)
they killed our second hive, nobody had a change to fade.. then we lost our hive, but we built another
and during its time building, we were screwed as we had 2 gorges, neither could HEAL the skulks so the skulks died
we did get the hive up, and we spammed OC's and everything
but they were no match for hte GL's
and skulks being weak, we were naturally screwed despite having OC/Defense chamber spam all around our base.
20 player server, this was.
the end score was 123/46 in favor of marines
Prosp
However, it doesn't really tell you much unless you research or try to sit down and do the math (good luck). Personally, I've not been able to play in a while cause I'm home from college and must deal with a 56k.
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Difference is just 3-5 HMG bullets from the carapace nerf. At 2-3 feets range, that's just about 0.25 seconds. The lifetime of a lvl 3 carap fade vs a HMG now varies from 1.3 to 1.8 seconds, depending on the upgrade level of the HMG. Of course, without lvl 3 carap, it's about 0.8 to 0.6 seconds...
Fades dies FAST to HMG's.... which is why you need a lerk. Ups the lifetime 6 times in the umbra. Or get a gorge to web them. Or preferably both. Of course, both of which requires a 2nd hive.
A one hive fade doesn't have a very fun time...
I belive that skulks will be compensated for the carapace nerf before 1.04 goes live. Considering that skulks are weaker than marines early game, and that fades will be a minute and a half late, skulks needs to carry a greater weight. Upping the armor to 20/40 will keep it at the same level (slightly better, in fact, as the naked skulk gets to live 1 LMG hit longer).
Do note another 1.04e change - the hive now heals for 20 pts per second instead of 8. That's the equivalent of fighting within range of four defence chambers. With the upped damage for lerk spikes, lerks will be very good close-defense fighters for the hive- simply perch close to the hive and spike marines to death.
Teamsize still has too much of an influence. Resources allows the marines to tech up FAST in large games (4 minutes to pay for MT/HA/HMG/WU1/AU1 in a 12v12 game? On just 2 res towers extra? That's downright scary ...). Even though skulks now stay 8 seconds in the reinf queue instead of 10, so the spawn rate of aliens are now the equivalent of 2 marine IP's (marines have 15 seconds in the reinf queue, IIRC), it just moved the balance point up by a player or two. You will still have huge backlogs of dead skulks on larger servers.
All in all though, I like just about all the 1.04e changes.
PLEASE for the love of GOD tell me what servers you are playing on where the marines win.
ALWAYS and i say ALWAYS when i play public as marine i get a team of incompetent marines that probably lost their brains in the washing machine. IT IS imposible to win when there is only 1 good marine on the team, since i can't both command and be on the field.
well anyway about the cara. if a fade is only going to take 50 bullets from lv 3 lmg how the *** are the aliens going to win. 1 marine can spray 50 bullets inte an alien easy. that makes it 1:1 single marine with standard weapons for the cost of 1 resource : upgraded alien for the cost of 48 resources.
1. Run away more often. Use acid rockets more. Melee fades just got a hit on their survivability.
2. Team up with a lerk and a gorge.
So, it takes a bit more skill. A good thing .
1. Run away more often. Use acid rockets more. Melee fades just got a hit on their survivability.
2. Team up with a lerk and a gorge.
So, it takes a bit more skill. A good thing ™.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I think fades should rely on melee MORE than acid rockets
Also, i have found out that:
marines are faster if they use their resources better.. like OAZE (a clanmate) just grabs more nodes with the starting 100res.. he'll have like 2 nodes while the aliens are just now getting 1 node up... but if marines build like an OBs, armory, 2 IPs, etc. they have to WAIT for res to build a node
Oaze's tactic works nearly everytime, unless the aliens are very skilled in rushing together, dodging, etc.
The problem is fade meelee is only slightly better than a lerk bite, leap is far more reliable than blink, you're a larger, slower target--even if a bit more durable, and when you factor in the resource cost... It's bad bad odds to take a fade and go solely meelee.
two games i just played--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a note to future posters: If you start your basis for an argument with a statement similar to the one above; you should just un-install NS, and go back to playing counter-strike.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously don't know why you decided to jump on my back for that.
I'm allowed to state what I want, and I thought i should just state that I disproved of the patch's changed at the beginning, then I stated WHY.
This forum has a **** load of tension built up and you guys argue for no reason at all.
GG. Ah, a CS joke? While I did used to play CS, I quit a long time ago. Nice to know you guys can argue as much as the CS forum. Pretty damn hard to do, but you guys seem you can almost pull it off.
of Lerk.
The Umbra needed to be nerfed, I agree. But the Lerk will be very easy to kill not with the Carapace nerf and the
Umbra nerf. Heck, knifing a Lerk is 1/3 easier know with the Carapace Nerf.
Umbra is really the only really good thing Lerks have, the spike shooter may come in handy from time to time but it's really
not that good.
For 33+2+2=37 Lerks are far to easy to kill.
I played JG (a space sim) befor this in a major squad, this squad OV, use VC VERY well they call when they have targets on their **** they communicate enemy buildup, they say things like 'Akimbo, you have pilot X about to fly past you! (akimbo an ammo pilot promptly kicks pilot x shitless)'.
Because of this I have no 'fear' of using voicecom, I will report important things, I will take controll of groups of marines who don't know what they're doing, I will say: 'move down the corrdior with enough spread to cover each other, one marine on each wall go go go!' (not the best formation but damn is it easy to communicate).
Due to this I've got to know quite afew other vocal people and I look out for their names on ASE, if I find a server with one on I join that server. I then join the same team as the player. This isn't due to a desire to beat the enemy's socks off its because I want to play on a team which isn't full of newbs, some of the vocal people started looking for me, very rapidly we had a large group of good players who often/always play on the same servers.
A marine team with a competent commander and a player he knows playing as 'sargent of marines' is far more deadly than any disorganized team.
Its a good idea to stay well clear of servers that are run by people who run lots of good CS servers, the CS players will go: 'whooo I get l33t pingz on dem!'.
BlueGhost
Edit>
****, The part of your anatomy you sit on. Is filterd.
Arse the same as above isn't.
Shitless also isn't.. bizzare.
But as for ghosty's comments on the voice comm, he has a point. IF YOU HAVE A MIC, USE THE DAMN THING. Ive been on servers that dont use voice comm alot because they "Cant heat the marines/aliens," or they "Cant hear where the hive is." Well fix your volume settings, you dolts! God knows i havent been the first one to ask someone to shut up for a sec to let me listen more closley, but damn, getting kicked for talking on voice instead of typing?! now thats just wrong.
Oh, and blue, you have a habit of stating the obvious. Of course a well organized team is going to be better than a stupid unorganized marine pack. But i understand why you do this too... Some people are just plain STUPID. I know you and i have argued on tactics in the past, but i agree here, voicecomm is a great thing to use. I actually wouldnt mind playing with you some time *smug look*
I played several games of 1.04f yesterday, and it kicked ****.