<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, let's see, you just wrote this moderately long message in which every point was easily addressed in my original post. Thanks so much for your insightful addition to this forum. It is posts like yours that reaffirms, once again, that my tax dollars are so wasted on the public education system in this nation. Reading comprehension, it isn't just for tests, it's for real life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, I'm gonna say 3 things here:
1) Since NS is a world wide game, it's very unlikely I'm in the same nation as u r 2) Since we'll obiously never agree at this point, why don't just stop talking about it, and get back on the topic, and ask if anyone actually KNOWS what's going to happen, not start a suggestion at jumping. 3) You might don't build a game for newbies, but you can't expect everybody to be a hardcore-NS player.
Now I can start insulting u by getting personal, I don't like it. It's a DEBATE. don't insult me, ok, cause you don't know **** about me, or because u don't like your nation, or something, don't blame me for your nation.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Alien Bob+Jan 11 2003, 03:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alien Bob @ Jan 11 2003, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think gorges should be able to build chambers on top of lerks, that way you can soon have a map filled with flying offence chambers.
*runs away to avoid shower of rotten fruit*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And likewise, turrets on Marines with JetPacks, yay!!
<!--QuoteBegin--MonKey-TurD+Jan 10 2003, 03:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonKey-TurD @ Jan 10 2003, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'll tell what would be an awesome upgrade for the sens chamber anything within a cirtain distance of it gets cloacked(except the chamber itself, which gives the aliens a challenge)! considering its not moving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd rather have just the chamber itself be cloaked, so you could stick them in corners all over the map and covertly monitor marine movements. The ability of the sensory tower to "see" marines is almost worthless since they're so easy to run past (or kill, unless they're defended by a bunch of other stuff).
Another good one would be for the sensory to shoot parasites - I've NEVER seen a marine get parasited from a sensory tower, just because you have to be pretty dumb to run up to one and touch it. If it sticks you with a parasite as soon as it sees you, though, it becomes a dang useful thing to stick at key points. Just give it a really low ROF so it doesn't actually kill anyone with that little 10 points of damage. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Making them so they can see through walls at a good range would also be sweet - help you watch out for those pesky siege cannons.
I'm not saying they should do ALL these things , mind you, just pointing out things that would make them useful for something besides upgrades. As it is now, I don't even bother trying to place them intelligently - just put a tower of 3 of them in the corner of a hive and go about my business.
Improving movements... well, that's a bit trickier. It'd be really cool if they were bidirectional like phase gates, but you run into the problem of how to choose which one to go to if you've built a whole bunch (and now can't recycle them or anything) and don't want to flip through 10 chambers just to get back to your hive that's dying.
Making Silence negate motion tracking would definitely rock, though. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Malaki+Jan 11 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Malaki @ Jan 11 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My idea for NS 1.1 is introducing a map or maybe 2 with
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines on Marines = Ill as hell
Or maybe a two on two team map. Like with four teams total. Probably not possible, but still fun to think about.
<Pines for the days of Myth II, when one felt like part of an entire army>
Ah, the classic bunnyhopping discussion. You have no idea how many times we used to discuss this on the PlanetFortress forums (not only is the horse now dead, its corpse is severely mutilated from generations of beatings).
Yes, bhopping is an engine exploit. However (and I have to use TFC examples here) so are rocket jumping, grenade jumping and concussion jumping(*1). These things, while not originally intended by the developers and exploiting a loophole in the engine physics, dramatically <i>improve</i> gameplay by adding extra complexity. It lets medics and scouts fly across the map, making them viable flag-capturers. It lets clever spies get up the lift shaft with the flag, unexpectedly. In games like quake 3, it lets rocket users gain some height on their opponent in exchange for some health.
But to get back to bunnyhopping.
In TFC, I'm strongly against bhopping because it degrades the quality of gameplay. It allows hwgs (*2) to move at the speed of a scout; this and other similar effects totally unbalances the game. Hence, it's a bad thing.
On the other hand, in NS bhopping does have sometihing to say for itself. Maybe not for the marines (who rely on teamwork) but for the Kharaa (who largely rely on individual skill). Bhopping advocates usually claim that it takes skill to perform correctly, and therefore is a just reward for those who put in the effort to learn to perform it properly. I don't think that's such a bad idea, in NS. Maybe putting a cap on the maximum speed increase from bhopping (like they did in TFC) is a good idea, but Kharaa bhopping isn't so out of character or unbalancing.
(1) rocket jumping, for the unenlightened, is the practise of jumping and firing your rocket launcher into the ground at the same time. The explosion will push you away from it, and combined with the fact that you're already moving up it can propel you to extreme heights if performed correctly. Grenade jumping is the above practise using a hand grenade - jumping just as it goes off. Concussion ("conc") jumping is grenade jumping using concussion grenades, which are specifically designed to push people away. Conc jumping is therefore much, much more effective than rocket or grenade jumping.
(2) hwg = Heavy Weapons Guy. Think heavy weapons dudes from Doom II. In TFC they have 100 health and 300 armour, the most armour of any class, they move the slowest, they carry extremely powerful grenades, and they carry a chaingun called the Assault Cannon (lovingly termed the "asscan" by many). Their slow speed is their major drawback.
<!--QuoteBegin--AcKz+Jan 10 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Jan 10 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--MonKey-TurD+Jan 10 2003, 03:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonKey-TurD @ Jan 10 2003, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i'll tell what would be an awesome upgrade for the sens chamber anything within a cirtain distance of it gets cloacked(except the chamber itself, which gives the aliens a challenge)! considering its not moving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually flayra was discussing that, but the chamber would be cloaked as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oooh, I like it I like it,
So much more use for sensory
1) cloak your walls of lame 2) cloak your sensory's and place them all over to parasite marines 3) cloak your skulks and chuckle from 3 places at the same time before you rip them to shreds
Flay posted that they are looking to remove the bunny hopping <b>exploit</b> (jumping to increase speed and the silence exploit) from v1.1 but not the ability to jump repeatedly.
I'm a little disappointed myself. I'm not sure why NS would decide to leave in such a DM-esque skill in a game that clearly favors teamplay.
Anyways, many interesting and good points on this thread, maybe Flay will reconsider in the future.
What I'd like to see is this: you can build all 3 chambers at any time, and the level of benefit you gain is based upon the number of hives you have, not the number of chambers you have. Getting 3 of a chamber is pretty trivial anyway, so except very early game you only see L3 upgrades right now.
This should help give the aliens more options and would also power-down carapace. Also, to help things out Regeneration, Celerity, Silence, and Cloaking all should be a bit more useful at L1 and 2 than they are right now, but I think they need that anyway.
Also, just to join in on the other discussion in this thread: I'm not sure about the "cloaks other buildings" thing but I do love the cloaked sensory chamber idea; making them hard to see would make them much more useful as scouts. Combined with my hive->upgrade level idea might help balance it too; they'd be harder to see but not completely invisible until 3 hives; if that was done you almost could get away with letting them cloak other structures without it being horribly cheesy.
Making sensory cloaking wouldnt be that useful since in ns camping is useless most of the time. And the few times it is (ambushing marines) the sensory would probably not be where you need it since an ambush depends on where the marines move and a gorge cant react fast enough to movement changes and get a sensory up. and spamming sensorys across the map would be a waste of res. I like the idea with the sensory parasiting incoming marines but you need to protect em good since they would become a primary target so just pull up a wall of oc alone and you dont need to parasite the marine since hes dead anyway. A thing i would like however would be that sensorys would prevent a lock for siege cannons in a certain radius around them. That would make em really usefull since you can place one under your hives and other important areas and be save of thos nasty siege in vents/jetpacker attacks.
But i doubt they can change the build order for the chambers at least not for dc first. The ability to heal/regen beats and will beat every other ability. Its just too important since aliens have no chance against the marines if they cannot heal themself on the frontlines.
And the ability to use one level of upgrade/hive is not good since most upgrades are useless at level1. But 3 upgrade points/ hive would be fine like stated in another post. So at level 1 i could choose level 3 carpace or level2 carpace + level 1 regen or level 1 carpace/regen/redemption and so on. With 2 hives i would have 3 points each to spend on the 2 chambers and with 3 hives 3 points/chamber. that would add a lot of variety to the game.
I'll agree to that if they fix blink so you don't have to crouch jump. I wouldn't be able to run for the hit-and-run because the 1/8th wouldn't leave enough for more then maybe one blink. Crouch-jumping to blink is almost the only time I jump as a Fade.
Dont you think discussing what bunnyjumping whould and should not be is a little bit pointless. you wont change the game by saying that DoD is a good game.
Comments
So, let's see, you just wrote this moderately long message in which every point was easily addressed in my original post. Thanks so much for your insightful addition to this forum. It is posts like yours that reaffirms, once again, that my tax dollars are so wasted on the public education system in this nation. Reading comprehension, it isn't just for tests, it's for real life.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, I'm gonna say 3 things here:
1) Since NS is a world wide game, it's very unlikely I'm in the same nation as u r
2) Since we'll obiously never agree at this point, why don't just stop talking about it, and get back on the topic, and ask if anyone actually KNOWS what's going to happen, not start a suggestion at jumping.
3) You might don't build a game for newbies, but you can't expect everybody to be a hardcore-NS player.
Now I can start insulting u by getting personal, I don't like it. It's a DEBATE. don't insult me, ok, cause you don't know **** about me, or because u don't like your nation, or something, don't blame me for your nation.
Discussion is over
*runs away to avoid shower of rotten fruit*
*runs away to avoid shower of rotten fruit*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And likewise, turrets on Marines with JetPacks, yay!!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
anything within a cirtain distance of it gets cloacked(except the chamber itself, which gives the aliens a challenge)! considering its not moving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather have just the chamber itself be cloaked, so you could stick them in corners all over the map and covertly monitor marine movements. The ability of the sensory tower to "see" marines is almost worthless since they're so easy to run past (or kill, unless they're defended by a bunch of other stuff).
Another good one would be for the sensory to shoot parasites - I've NEVER seen a marine get parasited from a sensory tower, just because you have to be pretty dumb to run up to one and touch it. If it sticks you with a parasite as soon as it sees you, though, it becomes a dang useful thing to stick at key points. Just give it a really low ROF so it doesn't actually kill anyone with that little 10 points of damage. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Making them so they can see through walls at a good range would also be sweet - help you watch out for those pesky siege cannons.
I'm not saying they should do ALL these things , mind you, just pointing out things that would make them useful for something besides upgrades. As it is now, I don't even bother trying to place them intelligently - just put a tower of 3 of them in the corner of a hive and go about my business.
Improving movements... well, that's a bit trickier. It'd be really cool if they were bidirectional like phase gates, but you run into the problem of how to choose which one to go to if you've built a whole bunch (and now can't recycle them or anything) and don't want to flip through 10 chambers just to get back to your hive that's dying.
Making Silence negate motion tracking would definitely rock, though. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> vs <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines on Marines = Ill as hell
Or maybe a two on two team map. Like with four teams total. Probably not possible, but still fun to think about.
<Pines for the days of Myth II, when one felt like part of an entire army>
that said, i think no one knows whats gonna be in 1.1 cept for Flay' and co'.
and please, dont bring any "tid-bits" of information, as it will only lead to more questions and speculations. (aka DONT KILL US WITH SUSPENSE!)
/strafejumpduck
Yes, bhopping is an engine exploit. However (and I have to use TFC examples here) so are rocket jumping, grenade jumping and concussion jumping(*1). These things, while not originally intended by the developers and exploiting a loophole in the engine physics, dramatically <i>improve</i> gameplay by adding extra complexity. It lets medics and scouts fly across the map, making them viable flag-capturers. It lets clever spies get up the lift shaft with the flag, unexpectedly. In games like quake 3, it lets rocket users gain some height on their opponent in exchange for some health.
But to get back to bunnyhopping.
In TFC, I'm strongly against bhopping because it degrades the quality of gameplay. It allows hwgs (*2) to move at the speed of a scout; this and other similar effects totally unbalances the game. Hence, it's a bad thing.
On the other hand, in NS bhopping does have sometihing to say for itself. Maybe not for the marines (who rely on teamwork) but for the Kharaa (who largely rely on individual skill). Bhopping advocates usually claim that it takes skill to perform correctly, and therefore is a just reward for those who put in the effort to learn to perform it properly. I don't think that's such a bad idea, in NS. Maybe putting a cap on the maximum speed increase from bhopping (like they did in TFC) is a good idea, but Kharaa bhopping isn't so out of character or unbalancing.
(1) rocket jumping, for the unenlightened, is the practise of jumping and firing your rocket launcher into the ground at the same time. The explosion will push you away from it, and combined with the fact that you're already moving up it can propel you to extreme heights if performed correctly. Grenade jumping is the above practise using a hand grenade - jumping just as it goes off. Concussion ("conc") jumping is grenade jumping using concussion grenades, which are specifically designed to push people away. Conc jumping is therefore much, much more effective than rocket or grenade jumping.
(2) hwg = Heavy Weapons Guy. Think heavy weapons dudes from Doom II. In TFC they have 100 health and 300 armour, the most armour of any class, they move the slowest, they carry extremely powerful grenades, and they carry a chaingun called the Assault Cannon (lovingly termed the "asscan" by many). Their slow speed is their major drawback.
not what SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be in 1.1
We've already had this duscussion over and over again
anything within a cirtain distance of it gets cloacked(except the chamber itself, which gives the aliens a challenge)! considering its not moving<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually flayra was discussing that, but the chamber would be cloaked as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oooh, I like it I like it,
So much more use for sensory
1) cloak your walls of lame
2) cloak your sensory's and place them all over to parasite marines
3) cloak your skulks and chuckle from 3 places at the same time before you rip them to shreds
weeeeee I hope this is true
I'm a little disappointed myself. I'm not sure why NS would decide to leave in such a DM-esque skill in a game that clearly favors teamplay.
Anyways, many interesting and good points on this thread, maybe Flay will reconsider in the future.
This should help give the aliens more options and would also power-down carapace. Also, to help things out Regeneration, Celerity, Silence, and Cloaking all should be a bit more useful at L1 and 2 than they are right now, but I think they need that anyway.
Also, just to join in on the other discussion in this thread: I'm not sure about the "cloaks other buildings" thing but I do love the cloaked sensory chamber idea; making them hard to see would make them much more useful as scouts. Combined with my hive->upgrade level idea might help balance it too; they'd be harder to see but not completely invisible until 3 hives; if that was done you almost could get away with letting them cloak other structures without it being horribly cheesy.
But i doubt they can change the build order for the chambers at least not for dc first. The ability to heal/regen beats and will beat every other ability. Its just too important since aliens have no chance against the marines if they cannot heal themself on the frontlines.
And the ability to use one level of upgrade/hive is not good since most upgrades are useless at level1. But 3 upgrade points/ hive would be fine like stated in another post. So at level 1 i could choose level 3 carpace or level2 carpace + level 1 regen or level 1 carpace/regen/redemption and so on. With 2 hives i would have 3 points each to spend on the 2 chambers and with 3 hives 3 points/chamber. that would add a lot of variety to the game.
I'll agree to that if they fix blink so you don't have to crouch jump. I wouldn't be able to run for the hit-and-run because the 1/8th wouldn't leave enough for more then maybe one blink. Crouch-jumping to blink is almost the only time I jump as a Fade.