Marine Expansion
parkan
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9128Members
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9128Members
<div class="IPBDescription">just how fast can it be?</div> I just played a game on nothing where the marines were expanding unusually fast. After cooling off a bit after getting pulverized by waves of fully upgraded HA/HMG/GL/JP marines, I decide to look into this situation a bit more objectively, and ask your help to analyze it.
Here's basically how it worked:
-We rush marine base once; kill 2-3 marines, nothing more substantial.
-Two players evolve into gorge, one reverts as it was a misunderstanding
-Marines take cargo
-We get the second hive started at the normal pace, with some defenses already in place (Viaduct)
-Our main hive (silo) gets rushed by several lone marines, one with an HMG I believe. The hive is nearly dead but we manage to hold them back. This is perfectly acceptable; they sacrificed base defenses and/or upgrades for HMGs. Sounds fair.
-As we move along, I decide to scout their main base, expecting to see a barely defended advanced armory, a cc, an IP and an observatory/phase. Instead I see a full base- all structures, save sieges. Turrets all around. Very odd, I think. Well, I guess they expanded quite well and did not spend anything on upgrades.
-Shortly afterwards, almost immediately as the second hive goes up, I go lerk and a teammate goes fade in Generator room. We had destroyed the res. tower there moments ago, as well as a tower on miasma walkway. Happily gliding as a lerk, expecting to see poorly outfitted light marines, with some lvl 1 shotties and HMGs at best (hah! They wasted the RP building all those phase gates, turrets and buildings, right?), both me and the fade get killed in under 3 seconds by a HA marine and one or two LAs, at least two of them had HMG. I managed to hit umbra almost immediately (it is usualyl selected as my main weapon), but we died neverthless.
-Ok, I think, enough cash was scrapped together for a lvl 1 HA/HMG (I am having doubts whether it was lvl 1, however). To my surprise, I see a group of HAs building a TF and a phase between viaduct and generator room. Eeeep, I say.
-We finally manage to push them back (kill 5-7 HA/HMG marines, destory all equipment). Moments later we see a LA (upgraded, I think)/HMG squad of 4 move into powrsilo, vaporize all defenses in seconds, and proceed to kill the hive. The latter part took about a minute and they were near impossible to killl; the comm must have spent at least 100 rp just spamming health. The remaining three fades manage to kill them. Whew. Time to rebuild.
-The rest of the game consisted primarily of HA/HMG marines simpyl walking in and raping everything in sight. If they are killed, an identical squad comes in to replace them. Jetpackers fly about with HMGs, etc. The hive is killed shortly therewafter.
Now, the question is, where do rp to:
-Build all base defenses
-Build, upgrade armory
-Build arms lab, observatory, and two phase gates
-Build defenses at cargo
-Get HMGs
Come within the first 5 minutes? Now, I am not accusing the other team of cheating (even if it seemed so by the yells on the server... I was mad at the resource model, forgive me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but I'd like to know how is it possible? The marines controlled few nodes (the majority remained unclaimed, and towers built by either side got destroyed very quickly) in the beginning, yet the above feat could be accomplished. It was a 9 vs 7 to 8 vs 8 game of the most part (m vs a), so the resources should not be biased towards marines yet. Is there a commanding trick of some sort to this? Perhaps a marine resource model specialist can explain this?
P.S. Sorry if the title was misleading
Here's basically how it worked:
-We rush marine base once; kill 2-3 marines, nothing more substantial.
-Two players evolve into gorge, one reverts as it was a misunderstanding
-Marines take cargo
-We get the second hive started at the normal pace, with some defenses already in place (Viaduct)
-Our main hive (silo) gets rushed by several lone marines, one with an HMG I believe. The hive is nearly dead but we manage to hold them back. This is perfectly acceptable; they sacrificed base defenses and/or upgrades for HMGs. Sounds fair.
-As we move along, I decide to scout their main base, expecting to see a barely defended advanced armory, a cc, an IP and an observatory/phase. Instead I see a full base- all structures, save sieges. Turrets all around. Very odd, I think. Well, I guess they expanded quite well and did not spend anything on upgrades.
-Shortly afterwards, almost immediately as the second hive goes up, I go lerk and a teammate goes fade in Generator room. We had destroyed the res. tower there moments ago, as well as a tower on miasma walkway. Happily gliding as a lerk, expecting to see poorly outfitted light marines, with some lvl 1 shotties and HMGs at best (hah! They wasted the RP building all those phase gates, turrets and buildings, right?), both me and the fade get killed in under 3 seconds by a HA marine and one or two LAs, at least two of them had HMG. I managed to hit umbra almost immediately (it is usualyl selected as my main weapon), but we died neverthless.
-Ok, I think, enough cash was scrapped together for a lvl 1 HA/HMG (I am having doubts whether it was lvl 1, however). To my surprise, I see a group of HAs building a TF and a phase between viaduct and generator room. Eeeep, I say.
-We finally manage to push them back (kill 5-7 HA/HMG marines, destory all equipment). Moments later we see a LA (upgraded, I think)/HMG squad of 4 move into powrsilo, vaporize all defenses in seconds, and proceed to kill the hive. The latter part took about a minute and they were near impossible to killl; the comm must have spent at least 100 rp just spamming health. The remaining three fades manage to kill them. Whew. Time to rebuild.
-The rest of the game consisted primarily of HA/HMG marines simpyl walking in and raping everything in sight. If they are killed, an identical squad comes in to replace them. Jetpackers fly about with HMGs, etc. The hive is killed shortly therewafter.
Now, the question is, where do rp to:
-Build all base defenses
-Build, upgrade armory
-Build arms lab, observatory, and two phase gates
-Build defenses at cargo
-Get HMGs
Come within the first 5 minutes? Now, I am not accusing the other team of cheating (even if it seemed so by the yells on the server... I was mad at the resource model, forgive me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but I'd like to know how is it possible? The marines controlled few nodes (the majority remained unclaimed, and towers built by either side got destroyed very quickly) in the beginning, yet the above feat could be accomplished. It was a 9 vs 7 to 8 vs 8 game of the most part (m vs a), so the resources should not be biased towards marines yet. Is there a commanding trick of some sort to this? Perhaps a marine resource model specialist can explain this?
P.S. Sorry if the title was misleading
Comments
Sounds like you got distracted with a decoy HMG rush on your main Hive while the main squad made their way to Cargo Bay Foyer.
My understanding of the marine resource model is that the income per functional resource tower is proportional to the number of players on the team.
If this is true, then the only thing I can think of is that the marines had a very large team, and capped every resource node along the way to the Cargo Bay Foyer Hive, which I <b>think</b> is 4 if they went Docking/Threshold/Ventilation, and then doubled back slightly to the Communications Hub before taking the one in the Hive room itself. Damn, I know that map <b>too</b> well. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But even then, it would have taken longer than 5 minutes.
Don't know what to tell you - I call shenanigans. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines move in, and get 5 total RTs that are all within easy defense distance from cargo and marine start.
1-Start
2-Docking wing
3-Cargo bay itself
4,5-Two right outside cargo.
With those resources, marines can tech HA/HMG/GL with MT goin, along with some upgrades just as the aliens get fades+lerks.
GG aliens, provided your team is semi-intelligent.
Base, Docking, Cargo1, Cargo2, Cargo3, GenRoom, Miasma.
I guess your team didn't attack the (undoubtedly) undefended RT's at start, instead focusing on the 2:nd hive (and getting distracted by the attack on Silo). In that scenario, on a 9 player team, the marines get SICK amount of resources. I know, because this is usually what I try to do since I want the aliens to get their 2:nd hive up (unless it's cargo) for more fun battles <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ns_n0thing is *very* marine-biased on large and semi-large teams (so I usually go alien nowadays).
Fusion is the WORST hive to begin with, as viaduct is next to impossible to hold presently with seiges from the red room. you only have 1 node close-by to grab (foreboding), and then you are forced ot move ot viaduct, cap that node, and save. The biggest problem is 80% of aliens go to cargo thru the vent from viaduct, which means you give them the entire upper half of the map, which just happens to be where most of the nodes are on that map.
A tip for you if you ever gorge starting at power silo on nothing, the first node you should cap is the generator room. It gives you some access upstairs, gives you warning when the marines try to hem you in, and hopefully makes your skulks move to cargo bay from that area, instead of that stupid vent. In that situation, you have ot play a resource game, deny them the upper ones by killing them, while taking all the lower ones. JP's are murder on aliens on that map, with the high spots in the power silo and the red room near viaduct. You must do everything you can to deny them JP's until you have 2 hives secure, and fades already hitting cargo.
Heh...
Sucks for aliens if they start in the cargo bay hive.
Marines get 2-3 marines in the far end of the vent, shooting the hive with pistols, and having ammo being spammed by the comm is just not fair to the aliens. They just cannot touch the marines.
People dont realize, the only time the vent's are good to the aliens, is when the marines can't get in them..
The other side of that is that if you are alien it is easy to drop OT/DT clusters in those hallways on the way from marine base to cargo and stop them from getting there. When i play gorg i always grab the RC to the backside of cargo for my first one, then double back for generator, then get RC in Hive. You should now be getting RCs at a pretty good clip, drop 3 D chambers under cargo so your skuls get caraprice. Head back and protect the hallway with a few turrets and build the RC in the hallway from marine start to cargo.
As for your question about marines appearing to move so quickly. IF they had 9 players they were getting double resources. IF they did have 5-6 collectors it is possible they could have rushed the weapon upgrade then built a few turrets at base. Once base is defended they can easily build as quickly as you said (i doubt 5 min though...).
There are actually 2 rts aside from the marine starting one that are very easy to secure :O<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not count that one, or the one with the elevator down to viaduct hive, as they are a bit too far to run before a skulk finishes munching on the RT. Plus any marine that comes to try and save the miasma one is easily ambushed, from the ledge above, and only being able to climb the ladder up.
Sounds like you got distracted with a decoy HMG rush on your main Hive while the main squad made their way to Cargo Bay Foyer.
My understanding of the marine resource model is that the income per functional resource tower is proportional to the number of players on the team.
If this is true, then the only thing I can think of is that the marines had a very large team, and capped every resource node along the way to the Cargo Bay Foyer Hive, which I <b>think</b> is 4 if they went Docking/Threshold/Ventilation, and then doubled back slightly to the Communications Hub before taking the one in the Hive room itself. Damn, I know that map <b>too</b> well. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But even then, it would have taken longer than 5 minutes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time frame _is_ off. Aliens gets Fades at around the 12 minute point, no matter the size of the team. On nothing, it is
EASY for the marines to get enough resources to tech up.
Frankly, nothing should loose the two extra resources around cargo bay. Would make things MUCH more balanced - five resources on upper level and five on lower, and cargo isn't the super-position it is today.
Teamsize also matters - take a look at <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081' target='_blank'>this article</a> for some nice, interesting spreadsheets.
The speed with which the marines can tech up on large teams is awesome.