Mobile Siege Bases
FlatlineUTD
Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Game theory in action!</div> This is all theory that hasn't been tested, but I think it may actually work.
With the drastic changes to siege cannons, phase gates, and scanner sweeps in v1.04, siege bases are becoming a less-viable option to taking out Hives and fortified locations.
<b>What is a Mobile Siege Base?</b>
My idea for the mobile siege base includes a 5 man marine squad. 2 marines equipped with grenade launchers and pistols, 3 equipped with LMGs (early game)/HMGs (mid game) and welders. Later in the game, all 5 soldiers are equipped with jetpacks as well.
<b>Advantages of the Siege Base</b>
- Sheer Power: Siege cannons do 330 damage per shot, plus splash damage.
- Surprise: If you fully build the base, and then scanner sweep/send in a spotter, that's over 660 damage to a pretty large area. And THEN the aliens realize what hit them.
- Easy To Hold (Early): If you position your buildings correctly, put up 2 or 3 sentry turrets and a phase gate, the siege base is going to be very hard to take down while the aliens are working with 1 Hive.
<b>Disadvantages of the Siege Base</b>
- Static: Once it’s up, it’s up. It can’t move. It can only take out buildings within its range.
- Target Acquisition: You need scanner sweeps or a spotter to target a structure. This allows aliens to build up right outside of your field of view and catch you off guard.
- An Easy Target: Face it. As original as you think your siege base location is, the aliens have probably seen it before, and are probably going to expect it. An organized force of any alien species can overrun it.
- Hard to Hold (Late): Fades will make short work of your siege base. The phase gate gives you a fighting chance, but it will almost always fall when the aliens work together to attack it.
<b>Advantages of the Mobile Siege Base</b>
- Mobility: Well whaddya know. The biggest advantage to the *Mobile* Siege Base is mobility. Having a single squad that can move from place to place eliminates the need for multiple siege bases.
- Shock Value: The aliens are *expecting* a siege base. Start to siege a Hive from a vent or some other weird area, and then run away. The aliens will be looking for structures, so this will catch them off guard. Once they think the area is clear, start attacking again, or attack another location. This will keep the aliens on their toes, allowing YOU to play the containment game.
- No Spotting Required: Your base is ALSO your spotter. This didn’t seem like a big deal until v1.04, which is why I never brought this up earlier.
- Response Time: The Mobile Siege Base allows you to hit areas that the aliens are trying to fortify. Chambers don’t stand up to anything if they’re not fully built when they’re attacked.
- Speed: With grenade launchers and welders taking down a wall of lame, the Mobile Siege Base can be in and out before the aliens make their way to your location.
- Denies Alien Coordination: Siege bases are easily overrun because the aliens have the opportunity to regroup and attack at once. Aliens *cannot* regroup and solidly attack an entity constantly on the move.
<b>Disadvantages of the Mobile Siege Base</b>
- You’re Using Marines: This really shouldn’t even be a disadvantage because the marines always have to work together to win, but I’ll list it anyway. If your squad of 5 men get separated, or don’t work together, this doesn’t stand a chance.
- Ammo: Your men are always going to be on the move. This doesn’t allow them time to regroup at base to get ammo. The commander will always have to watch them and immediately respond to requests for ammo.
- Health: Later on, you’re giving up the protection of HA for the mobility of jetpacks. Your men will be needing health, and even more if they get caught by surprise.
- The Counter-Push: If the aliens take out the mobile siege base, it’s going to take a while for it to reform itself. You will have to redistribute weapons and equipment, and wait for your men to respawn. During this time, the aliens can put up a *lot* of structures, or attack you.
<b>Resources</b>
Since this is all theory, I haven’t gotten the exact costs of structures and equipment, so this is just ballpark estimates, but you still get the idea.
A siege base consists of an upgraded turret factory, 2x siege turrets, 3x sentry turrets, and a phase gate. This comes out to about 160 resources <b>per base</b>.
A mobile siege base consists of 2 grenade launchers, and 3 welders. This comes out to about 90 resources.
Now, people will argue that I’m not taking into account the cost of an arms lab or advanced armory. I’m not taking it into account because these are things that you’re <b>going to need anyway</b>. Regardless of which siege base you use, you’re going to get an arms lab and advanced armory at some point in the game. With the mobile siege base, you’re just getting it earlier. Later on, you’re going to need to research and get jetpacks for your men, but again, you’re <b>getting a prototype lab anyway.</b>
<b>The Build</b>
The mobile siege base comes into play slightly earlier than you would normally use siege bases. You will mostly likely have a shortage of resources early on, but I can’t confirm this. I suppose it’s possible to hold off on the motion tracking upgrade, but I wouldn’t recommend that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since this is theory and I haven’t tested it, I can’t name a set order. But if you’re going to attempt this, you should try to get your arms lab and advanced armory up earlier than normal. The point is to prevent the aliens from fortifying an area, not to take an existing one down.
As such, by keeping constant pressure on them from different fronts, any marines you may have holding an empty Hive *should* be fairly well off, as the aliens will be occupied elsewhere due to the distraction the mobile siege base brings. This should give you extra time to get the phase gates and turret factory up in the Hive, as well as cap a node or two.
I can’t stress enough that <b>this is theory</b>. Please let me know what you think or what you think should be added! Thanks!
With the drastic changes to siege cannons, phase gates, and scanner sweeps in v1.04, siege bases are becoming a less-viable option to taking out Hives and fortified locations.
<b>What is a Mobile Siege Base?</b>
My idea for the mobile siege base includes a 5 man marine squad. 2 marines equipped with grenade launchers and pistols, 3 equipped with LMGs (early game)/HMGs (mid game) and welders. Later in the game, all 5 soldiers are equipped with jetpacks as well.
<b>Advantages of the Siege Base</b>
- Sheer Power: Siege cannons do 330 damage per shot, plus splash damage.
- Surprise: If you fully build the base, and then scanner sweep/send in a spotter, that's over 660 damage to a pretty large area. And THEN the aliens realize what hit them.
- Easy To Hold (Early): If you position your buildings correctly, put up 2 or 3 sentry turrets and a phase gate, the siege base is going to be very hard to take down while the aliens are working with 1 Hive.
<b>Disadvantages of the Siege Base</b>
- Static: Once it’s up, it’s up. It can’t move. It can only take out buildings within its range.
- Target Acquisition: You need scanner sweeps or a spotter to target a structure. This allows aliens to build up right outside of your field of view and catch you off guard.
- An Easy Target: Face it. As original as you think your siege base location is, the aliens have probably seen it before, and are probably going to expect it. An organized force of any alien species can overrun it.
- Hard to Hold (Late): Fades will make short work of your siege base. The phase gate gives you a fighting chance, but it will almost always fall when the aliens work together to attack it.
<b>Advantages of the Mobile Siege Base</b>
- Mobility: Well whaddya know. The biggest advantage to the *Mobile* Siege Base is mobility. Having a single squad that can move from place to place eliminates the need for multiple siege bases.
- Shock Value: The aliens are *expecting* a siege base. Start to siege a Hive from a vent or some other weird area, and then run away. The aliens will be looking for structures, so this will catch them off guard. Once they think the area is clear, start attacking again, or attack another location. This will keep the aliens on their toes, allowing YOU to play the containment game.
- No Spotting Required: Your base is ALSO your spotter. This didn’t seem like a big deal until v1.04, which is why I never brought this up earlier.
- Response Time: The Mobile Siege Base allows you to hit areas that the aliens are trying to fortify. Chambers don’t stand up to anything if they’re not fully built when they’re attacked.
- Speed: With grenade launchers and welders taking down a wall of lame, the Mobile Siege Base can be in and out before the aliens make their way to your location.
- Denies Alien Coordination: Siege bases are easily overrun because the aliens have the opportunity to regroup and attack at once. Aliens *cannot* regroup and solidly attack an entity constantly on the move.
<b>Disadvantages of the Mobile Siege Base</b>
- You’re Using Marines: This really shouldn’t even be a disadvantage because the marines always have to work together to win, but I’ll list it anyway. If your squad of 5 men get separated, or don’t work together, this doesn’t stand a chance.
- Ammo: Your men are always going to be on the move. This doesn’t allow them time to regroup at base to get ammo. The commander will always have to watch them and immediately respond to requests for ammo.
- Health: Later on, you’re giving up the protection of HA for the mobility of jetpacks. Your men will be needing health, and even more if they get caught by surprise.
- The Counter-Push: If the aliens take out the mobile siege base, it’s going to take a while for it to reform itself. You will have to redistribute weapons and equipment, and wait for your men to respawn. During this time, the aliens can put up a *lot* of structures, or attack you.
<b>Resources</b>
Since this is all theory, I haven’t gotten the exact costs of structures and equipment, so this is just ballpark estimates, but you still get the idea.
A siege base consists of an upgraded turret factory, 2x siege turrets, 3x sentry turrets, and a phase gate. This comes out to about 160 resources <b>per base</b>.
A mobile siege base consists of 2 grenade launchers, and 3 welders. This comes out to about 90 resources.
Now, people will argue that I’m not taking into account the cost of an arms lab or advanced armory. I’m not taking it into account because these are things that you’re <b>going to need anyway</b>. Regardless of which siege base you use, you’re going to get an arms lab and advanced armory at some point in the game. With the mobile siege base, you’re just getting it earlier. Later on, you’re going to need to research and get jetpacks for your men, but again, you’re <b>getting a prototype lab anyway.</b>
<b>The Build</b>
The mobile siege base comes into play slightly earlier than you would normally use siege bases. You will mostly likely have a shortage of resources early on, but I can’t confirm this. I suppose it’s possible to hold off on the motion tracking upgrade, but I wouldn’t recommend that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Since this is theory and I haven’t tested it, I can’t name a set order. But if you’re going to attempt this, you should try to get your arms lab and advanced armory up earlier than normal. The point is to prevent the aliens from fortifying an area, not to take an existing one down.
As such, by keeping constant pressure on them from different fronts, any marines you may have holding an empty Hive *should* be fairly well off, as the aliens will be occupied elsewhere due to the distraction the mobile siege base brings. This should give you extra time to get the phase gates and turret factory up in the Hive, as well as cap a node or two.
I can’t stress enough that <b>this is theory</b>. Please let me know what you think or what you think should be added! Thanks!
Comments
Shock troop marine squad moves to area, and builds a seige platform ( Base implies refueling/rearming area.. I like platform better, as in, attack staging platform). Seige attacks, and kills whatever's on the other side.
It's a pretty standard tactic. The thing about the intermittant fire is cool though.
Allow me to pose a question.
You say that you have 2 grenade launchers and 3 MG marines in a group. All of them have HA or jetpacks, and you're putting this group of people in close proximity to the hive room.
Assuming these people have some skills, and can move together effectively, weld effectively, etc...
Why not send them into the hive room itself?
A seige platform, however built up and elaborate, is in a place that is _garunteed_ to make the aliens mad, and get in their way as far as winning is concerned. Assuming that the base can be built, up and operational, it does 660 damage per shot to whatever is inside the area. Assuming no fortifications, it will take those guns about.... 3, 4 minutes to kill that hive w/o a spotter?
But wait a second. You have 3 HMG's. HMG's do 18 damage per shot. HMG's have 150 shots. That's 2700 damage right there. Take a gunner off for anti-player fire, and you're still doing 5400 damage to that hive. And that's not counting the grenade launchers dumping 800 damage a clip into that hive....
That hive's going down fast.
So why not just setup a phase base, and use the extra 50-60 RP's to outfit a second hive-killing squad? That means you either drop 2 hives at once, or once your squad dies, replace it in seconds through the gate? Then, Throw the squad at the hive, and watch the fireworks?
If someone didnt understand me, he should read your version <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just think it is this how Marines should be played, and not build a Siege at every Wall of Lame or defended Hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ok, maybe you loose those Marines and have to pay tons of res to just equip em again, but how many times have i seen Siege bases get eaten up sending another ton of res to hell.
And as a Marine I preffer HA/HW than trying to be the poor worker-builder, dying from a hopping skulk and then till I get back there the whole outpost is gone, while the comm resigns <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
On public servers with no experienced players you can't count on your marines.
I've been saying for a while now that the marines need some sort of behavioral indicators that gives them some information on how they should act. Such as a squad indicator, letting the marine know if and which squad he has been grouped into and which marines he should follow. Perhaps some sort of arbitrary rank a commander can give to a marine that does nothing but serve as someone the marines can group around.
Those Marines out there crying for a welder might have a plan... or maybe not <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Give em a chance.
I think this game needs more VoiceCom. Commanders with Voice are better than writing comms <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I suppose "base" was the wrong word to use. But "platform" really isn't correct either. The point of this is to *not* build anything when attacking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's a pretty standard tactic. The thing about the intermittant fire is cool though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would have thought so too, but in every game I've played, I've seen siege bases outside of just about every hive or important area. This theory is based off of not needing *any* structures other than what's in your primary and secondary base, and possibly a forward staging area as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not send them into the hive room itself?
A seige platform, however built up and elaborate, is in a place that is _garunteed_ to make the aliens mad, and get in their way as far as winning is concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look back over my "Denies Alien Coordination" section. There is no siege platform that's built, it's only the 5 marine squad. Going into the Hive room is part of their job, they *shouldn't* be sitting around outside of the Hive attacking it. They need to be constantly on the move, so running through the Hive room is necessary.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Assuming that the base can be built, up and operational, it does 660 damage per shot to whatever is inside the area. Assuming no fortifications, it will take those guns about.... 3, 4 minutes to kill that hive w/o a spotter?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's why you don't build one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
But wait a second. You have 3 HMG's. HMG's do 18 damage per shot. HMG's have 150 shots. That's 2700 damage right there. Take a gunner off for anti-player fire, and you're still doing 5400 damage to that hive. And that's not counting the grenade launchers dumping 800 damage a clip into that hive....
That hive's going down fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're starting to get it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't really like the HMGs because they decrease the overall mobility of the squad, which is why I had originally intended LMGs and welders. But giving an HMG equipped marine a jetpack counteracts the mobility penalty, I suppose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So why not just setup a phase base, and use the extra 50-60 RP's to outfit a second hive-killing squad? That means you either drop 2 hives at once, or once your squad dies, replace it in seconds through the gate? Then, Throw the squad at the hive, and watch the fireworks?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>This</b> is summing my idea up to the bare bones. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I suppose the name "mobile siege base" was a bit misleading. Constantly having a Hive-killing squad on the move is the overall idea to this.
Thanks for the comments though. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think a bit better would be 3 people remain at base, they are well equipped (2 gl's?and you get upgrades). Then a party (1-2 marines) moves along that's sole purpose is to get a phase up. They sneak outside a hive set-up party comes through. Fire boom sticks, can resupply at base.
This keeps a similar amount of flexibility and is I believe less risky. Also defends base and they can build stuff.
I prefer a seige though, it can't move so won't move whereas as marines might wonder off allowing the hive to be recaptured.
I usually play on servers slightly larger than that, but I was thinking about the team size as well. <b>Key word in this: theory</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think a bit better would be 3 people remain at base, they are well equipped (2 gl's?and you get upgrades). Then a party (1-2 marines) moves along that's sole purpose is to get a phase up. They sneak outside a hive set-up party comes through. Fire boom sticks, can resupply at base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea. The only problem with leaving these guys in base is that grenade launchers still really aren't efficient for anti-player combat. They're good for suppressive fire and anti-structure. If you've got 3 grenade launcher-equipped marines at base, if a Skulk or two come running in, those guys had better be good with a pistol, cause those grenades aren't going to work if the Skulks are somewhat skilled. Leaving a guy with an HMG would solve this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I prefer a seige though, it can't move so won't move whereas as marines might wonder off allowing the hive to be recaptured.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, it can't move. But it also can't acquire targets for itself if it's outside of the Hive room, meaning that if you as a commander become occupied elsewhere and stop scanning the Hive, a Gorge can slip in, build up chambers or a Hive. Plus, siege bases are easily overrun by aliens that work as a team, which ends up wasting a lot of your resources, and still allows them to rebuild.
The mobile squad can keep a patrol route going, preventing the aliens from building up too many structures over a period of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only problem with leaving these guys in base is that grenade launchers still really aren't efficient for anti-player combat. They're good for suppressive fire and anti-structure<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ideal (while minimising cost) squad would be (for me at least) GL, HMG, Shotgun & jp. (Try a lan game with sv_cheats 1 give yourself a shotgun and attack a hive short range, Highly Effective). The cheaper shotgun is good and if you get jumped the jp can drop hie shotgun and fly away with the gl saving some res. This team would take out hive in pretty shot order and be effective in most other roles.
Of course the real problem is getting 3 marines you trust with this stuff, and very importantly remind them not to telefrag each other on the phase (I can see it now you spend spend spend then they do that!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it also can't acquire targets for itself if it's outside of the Hive room, meaning that if you as a commander become occupied elsewhere and stop scanning the Hive, a Gorge can slip in, build up chambers or a Hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think in 1.04 there will be alot more building the seige *in* the hive rather than seiging it thru a wall, and I know when I comm I'll be doing my utmost to put turrets in the hives and as soon as i hear "sentry taking damage" ill be there.
If you can rely on the marines this would be very effective, the patrolling would be easy if you get 1 person to keep phasing as a routine. Of course the one thing it needs is testing so report back any success/failures with this technique.