<!--QuoteBegin--MadJackMcJack+Jan 7 2003, 08:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MadJackMcJack @ Jan 7 2003, 08:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, 4 fades in six minutes? My god, they're dropping like flies!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 4 fades in 6 minutes is slow and probably just a bad example, its a shame so many people seem to pick up on this fact and act so immaturely towards it. 3 fades died every five minutes in the last game I played where a combination of old grenades (1.03) and rushing LMGers with no upgrades took on fade/lerk/gorges with webbing combo's... if nades are stronger then I can only see those three fades dying in three or even two minutes...which even the most staunch marine defenders would have to admit would be pretty fast.
I think it all comes down to a more simple evaluation. I play on a couple servers (and run the mods on a server), and I would say that 1.04 has lost alot of it's fun value. With server-side 3rd party enhancements like hive saving, laser sights, gorge teleportation, or being beable to build defence and movement right at the start, and some other wierd variations that made 1.03 more balanced, I find 1.04 disgusting. I've reverted my servers back to 1.03 (at least till they fix the GL and the siege cannons. I don't like spending 100 res to kill 3 defence chambers stuck in a vent, no thank you)
1.03 is definately marine favoured, but with some serverside messing around the gaming can become quite fun. After throwing on 1.04 on my server, I noticed that the gameplay just isn't as fun as it was. And im also a oldschool phase user. I REALLY hate using phase gates.
Since they will probly never budge on half of these issues, 1.03 is probly the last version that me and more than a few people are going to run.
Being a fade take SKILL!? Like hell! Being a fade is easy if you know how to play FPS. Acid rocket is an basic rocket launcher from quake except it never runs out of ammo. Bilebomb is grenade launcher, and claws are well, claws. Blink is so useless i wont talk about it here. Once you get adrenaline and regen, its very hard to die unless you get stupid, and if you have lerkers its even harder. Ive gotten 40 kills without dying, just camping marines spawn by myself. Infinite health, infinite ammo, powerful range attacks? Fades take s00p3r l337 5k1llz!
I actually never noticed that acid rocket went through walls. Rule of thumb... <b>EXPLOSIONS NEVER GO THROUGH WALLS.</b> It simply doesn't make any sense. Forget "realism." It... it's just not possible. Damage is fine by me (maybe lower it a little, Onos in 1 clip seems pretty outrageous) but damage going through walls = <b>BIG NO-NO.</b>
(Of course, change acid rocket and bilebomb to be the same way) [/disregard]
Edit. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could someone tell me how to reproduce the "grenades through walls" syndrome? I have my own draw damage on, and I've tried lots of scenarios and I can't get it to occur.
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful). - Flayra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't see that.
PS: It isn't a HL mod thing. FLF doesn't have explosions going through walls either. Probably other mods exclude that too because it's plain dumb :\ (Once I killed a teammate through a wall by throwing a nade out the Assault door in CS, and got promptly Admin-Nuked. Wtf). [Just another FLF anecdote in my continuing crusade for recognition]
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 7 2003, 08:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 7 2003, 08:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could someone tell me how to reproduce the "grenades through walls" syndrome? I have my own draw damage on, and I've tried lots of scenarios and I can't get it to occur.
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a grenade bug in DoD_Avalance which allows people to be killed by grenades on the other side of a particular wall down by the Allied spawn. IIRC, I heard something about the map wall being 'too thin'. Maybe that's your problem.
genius, I'll list this behind the priority of "don't let them get HMG's", "don't let them get HA" and right before "don't let them upgrade their armour/weapons"
I think I'll put it right away from "don't let them get fades" which is slightly different.
man, I dunno if all these tactics are feasible for the human mind to comprehend.
Well what Flayra said: The bilebomb and acid rocket are supposed to damage through walls: I myself fail to see the logic behind it, considering it makes it near impossible it hide from damage from a fade (Thus increasing the rocket spammage), but that's not the topic at hand.
In regular Half-Life explosions did not damage through walls. It is NOT a "Half-Life thing".
Second of all, I think Flayra bumped up the damage on the grenade launcher to give the marines a form of a 'game ender'. The grenade launcher is obscenely expensive, it carrys only a tiny bit of ammo, and is useless as an offensive weapon (In the sense that: <u>Smart</u> Fade + You with grenade launcher = You dead.)
The aliens get the Onos, marines got- oh, midgame. There is:
Beginning Game Mid Game End Game
The marines have no End Game. All it is is Mid Game vs. Beginning Game towards the end. Where's the fun in that?
Finally it's the only thing to <b>effectively</b> solve the FRS (Fade R@pe Syndrome). If you're having a problem with grenade launching marines, believe it or not, but a skulk will work wonders...
That's my logic behind the boost, if I'm on the mark, say so, Flayra, because I want to know too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Plus, it may get everyone to hush up about "OMFGz!!1111 teh gernaed launhar r s00 l4m3 j00 mu$t b a n0ob!1!!11"
hmph, acid goes through walls? bah. What, does it burn away the bulkheads <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm sure less people would go on about the nade launchers if less like you went on needlessly about the fades. Why must everything be equated like for like? Aliens have the hives, 1 is start, 2 is mid to end game and 3 is end game.
With marines the advancing of tech is so completely different that I don't think you can determine a team end game unless you're playiing in the server. One commanders end game could be another commanders mid game. One commander might finish off with HA/GLs, another might aim to finish up with JPers with only upgraded weapons and armour. Marines are too diverse in what they can do and what they can use to kill off all the aliens to set specific mid and end games so freely.
I assumed it was a half life thing as all mods I've played of HL have had it where grenades or explosives damage through walls. thats all.
Grenades being the marines end game, as you suggest flayra made it, is not a good idea. Grenade launchers aren't as slow to research as many people would like to fictionise, so it would make just about every game a 2 hive game, and never a three hive game. Games where aliens get fades and so utterly decimate the marines because they're apparantly unstoppable, or games where the comander gets the GL sorted quickly so that aliens don't really have the chance of winning from then on, even if they push the marines back to defend their own base.
Believe me, I'm sure you've played similar games, but when grenades are involved, it's carpet bombing and stalemate for a large portion of time until one alien is lucky enough to get through and not get shot down by the covering marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second of all, I think Flayra bumped up the damage on the grenade launcher to give the marines a form of a 'game ender'. The grenade launcher is obscenely expensive, it carrys only a tiny bit of ammo, and is useless as an offensive weapon (In the sense that: Smart Fade + You with grenade launcher = You dead.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GLs are cheaper then Siege, and about 3 times as effective. Just today we had a game go for 3 hours because Marines were whoring GLs. They didnt even have guys in HA before they handed out the GLs!
So 3 hours later, its a stalemate pretty much, Aliens have EVERY node on the map minus 1 or 2, we have tons of res, tons of OC/DC, tons of Fades, and they just kept 1 or 2 guys chucking nades into the entrance of the 1 hive we needed.
Grenade Launcher = Cheaper, and all around better then Siege in every way shape and form. Unless your to stupid to fire a GL, then maybe Siege is better <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The clip on the GL if anything is to big, with this new patch you can do 800 damage per clip. Thats 800 damage all at once, in a radius almost equal to half a city block. Does anyone think thats overkill?
Acid rocket might be lethal, but it dosent do 800 damage, it dosent go through walls, and it dosent kill anything in 1 clip (on a upgraded marine anyway).
<!--QuoteBegin--Kilmster+Jan 7 2003, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kilmster @ Jan 7 2003, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Grenades in 1.0 did this exact damage, the only difference back then that made things HARDER then now; is that fades had 25 less armor, and walked about 1/3 slower.
edit: oh yeah, and acid rockets were firing considerably slower. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nades do even more damage now than in 1.0. They can be upgraded also! But sure, fades were poor foes back then.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Somehow, someway; I still assassinated many grenade toting fools, so I guess I must have had somethign going for me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, most likely that the general "skillz" level of the server populace were low. Now, 2+ months after, many players has some experience on Do's and Don'ts of both alien and mariens. Gives us a better game, but also a game were a Rambo Nadine arent so common. Comm would want to give one of the good marines the nade and try to give him heavy escorting.
Well I just played a 15 vs 15 game and the marines were bringing out grenade launchers... about 5 people had them. I learned how to use blink so I was a mad Fade but got brought down with an HMG. My teammates were off doing something else, but when I respawned and came back, everyone with a GL was dead, and I heard no more the rest of the game.
All I am contributing is that on the latest beta server, I saw 3 onos go down simultaneously thanks to two grenade launchers at near point-blank range. The onos just charged right in (using charge), and promptly died. Several more onos died, but then someone was smart enough to use skulk xenocide and take out the grenadiers. Then the marines died =)
<!--QuoteBegin--Ardesco+Jan 7 2003, 09:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Jan 7 2003, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->skulk xenocide and take out the grenadiers. Then the marines died =)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, I envision maybe we will see more games where nades AND 3rd hive monsters battle. It used to be that when aliens got 3rd the end game was long overdue. Perhaps no more, if marines are forced to fight more ground wars with the aliens for res.I hope so.
The BIG problem with 1.04 thus far isnt so much the grenade: Indeed, the grenade is a powerful weapon, and when spammed, its horrible to behold... However... Thats not the problem... The problem is when the aliens control all but two resource nodes on the map, while the marines have a base in two of the three hives. They're able to spam health and ammo packs, drop tons of weapons, and build buildings faster than we can destroy a single one.. With only two resource nodes. I dont know about you, but I'd think thats a bit...unfair? They were able to hold off wave after wave of aliens, and EXPAND their bases, even, with only two resource nodes. We'd mow down their people, yet everyone would be equipped with an HMG/GL and Jetpacks. The ONLY reason their commander didnt hand out heavy armor? "It'd be too easy." I believe if the resource flow is brought back under control, we'll lose the whole marine team with GLs issue we seem to be having..if they're made a little more expensive, and the resources flow alot slower, tha'd force the marines to use them STRATEGICALLY instead of just laying down a few dozen every few seconds.
And before any of you who flame and say "Stop whining and playing if you cant handle the game" jump on me, I've been playing it just as long as any of you, save for the Devs and their teams, and I play BOTH sides. Once we got GLs and heavies when I was playing as a marine, it didnt matter that the aliens had two hives..we just tore them apart. Our three or four nodes were giving us resources so fast that we could easily afford to outfit rambos with the best equipment. I've won several games as an alien under this patch, but they were long and drawn out, even with three hives. I've also won as a marine..but...I've seen that even a not-so-great commander who at least knows how to research and drop stuff bring his team to victory through the ability to drop as much as he wanted because the resources flowed so freely.
Anyway, thats my point: the Grenade balance would be found if resources flowed slower and they were a bit more costly. {edit} Quick ammendment to what I posted: we didnt mean to let them get two hives in that game, its just that they relocated their entire base to Viaduct, and powersilo was under their control. They could phase people through to either location so quickly that it didnt really matter where we attacked-we stood no chance.
keep the Gl as it is , it rocks! , by the time the humans have the GL then the aliens should have fades by then and so whats the problem? use blink and get out of the way? they have a 2-3 second fuse?? well if you hear them get away and the guy will run out of ammo. i can understand y any1 would be **** of that you cant get out of your reswpn but.... YOU HAVE LOST THE GAME! face it , rushing the hive with Gl's is a good way of killing it same way as rushing the humand base and webbing it is as aliens.
Sigh lol, Usually I do the unnecessary flaming but today I played a round that lasted about an hour and Marines won without one single GL being handed out and only LMG. Not kidding,not even HMG's, just plain Lmg, Aliens put up a pretty good fight but we were able to take two hives early because of good welding, gates, and teamwork. This was on a 1.04 server. Of course we'll always have that person who complains about something but every round is unlike another. So far I have seen this game balance greatly with the new patch. Mind that before that match on the same server aliens one twice in a row with GL involved so I don't see how people are "now" complaining. Also I should mention I was alien on those two alien win rounds so I'm not biased or favored for a particular "side".
<!--QuoteBegin--JKooL+Jan 7 2003, 03:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JKooL @ Jan 7 2003, 03:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love how everyone complains about the grenade spamming, but in reality - when marines are pushed back to the defensive, they rarely have the resources to get more than 1 grenade launcher. And if marines happen to get the resources and abilities to have multiple grenade launchers, then maybe they deserve it.... We don't complain when there's 3 Onos running around the base.
-JKooL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well should u complain if ur team sucked (notice im not saying U so im not flaming) and they got three hives? its expected to happen -.-
acid rocket and bile bomb damage go through walls to simulate the vaporous acid fog that travels though the tiny nooks and crannies in the bulkhead <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ok... well i guess thats ok.. but wut i hav a problem wif is the grenade spamming.. if a COMM makes an armory in a hive.. u'll never get in... seriously.. especially if there is only one entrance..
exclude vents.. seriously... a few grenades popped in a vent will kill almost nything.... especially the fades cuz they are so slow in vents -.- <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The marines have no End Game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens controlling 1 Hive = Alien early game Aliens controlling 2 Hive = Alien mid game Aliens controlling 3 Hive = Alien end game
Marines controlling 1 Hive = Marine early game Marines controlling 2 Hive = Marine mid game Marines controlling 3 Hive = Marine end (of the) game
Game stages are currently defined by the status of the hives, not by any evolutionary levels or equipment. The only way you can argue that marines have no end game is because as soon as marines hit end game, the game is over. Aliens just get to finish the game off with the humourous cloaked onos, the end result is the same in either case.
Marines have an early game advantage that allows them to secure a hive immediately, before a gorge has the resources to start a second. Which is why controlling 1 hive is considered marine early game.
Start of the game - Skulks vs. LA/LMG marines. Early game - Upgraded Skulks vs. Upgraded marines. Middle game - Lerks/fades vs. HA/HMG/JP/GL. End game - Onos/3rd hive abilitys vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??
In 1.04, the GL has moved from a mid-game level of power to an end-game level of power.
Also in a thread I can't remember a dev (Nemesis I think) posted something along these lines.
Aliens have 1 hive = Marines superior. Aliens have 2 hives = Equal teams. Aliens have 3 hives = Aliens superior.
The reason for this Nemesis explained was that at one stage in the PT'ing it was TOO balanced, games would drag on for ages and ages, even at eth 3 hive stage. The problem now is that this setup has created the situation where control of the hives is secondary to everything else.
<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+Jan 7 2003, 10:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Jan 7 2003, 10:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Teoh, I think Uranium meant was this.
Start of the game - Skulks vs. LA/LMG marines. Early game - Upgraded Skulks vs. Upgraded marines. Middle game - Lerks/fades vs. HA/HMG/JP/GL. End game - Onos/3rd hive abilitys vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know what he meant, my point was that his logic is flawed.
In a typical RTS such as warcraft, each team gradually increases in strength as the game goes on, starting off by pitting their tier 1 against each other, and finishing up with tier 3 battles. <b>NS does not work like this.</b> Only marines follow the 'gradual increase in power' model. The reason his view of early and late game are incorrect is because he assumes both teams follow the same model which they don't.
The power level of the alien side is significantly more important than that of the marine side. The increase in strength to an alien side when they gain an extra hive is much greater than any upgrade available to the marines. Rather than gradually increasing in strength, aliens swing back and and forth depending on the number of hives they control. The tech system is entirely different to the marines and its varying levels of strength cannot be compared to marine upgrade levels. Basic skulks are inferior to early game marines, Onos are superior to any marine unit.
For this reason, the upgrade level of marines is insignificant in comparison to the number of hives held by each side. The most effective way for marines to get an advantage over the aliens is not to increase their own strength, but to prevent the aliens from increasing theirs.
Put simply, if you are looking for a final "End game vs. End game" situation, there is no such thing. Human and Alien end games are mutually exclusive, because the tide of power is almost entirely focused on the number of hives controlled by each race. The final end game destination of either team is to control all 3 hives, it is impossible for Aliens and Marines to both control 3 hives, therefore there is no "ONOS vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->". Either team controlling 3 hives is the end game - marine upgrades are only of secondary importance. Marine upgrades are simply 1 possible strategy used for the purpose of controlling more hives than the other team.
How the game was designed to work, or how the developers would like it to work is relatively meaningless - as of now, the game is a battle for control of hives. If you let the other team control 3 hives, you lose the game. There are no marine upgrades that change this situation.
Wether we'll see less focus on hives and a little more focus on resource collection in 1.04 remains to be seen, and won't be known untill many serious clan matches have been played on the patch, but looking at the current changes, i don't think there is much departure from the 1.0 gameplay. Hives will still be of primary importance, only it appears it has become slightly harder for marines to secure a second hive, and slightly easier for them to survive against 2 hive aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason his view of early and late game are incorrect is because he assumes both teams follow the same model which they don't.
Marines upgrade in a smooth progressive manner, aliens in jumps as they get hives. Otherwise standard RTS type match-ups exist as I posted earlier.
I do agree the ability of 'downgrading' the aliens by destroying hives or stopping them by taking hives does change the dynamics somewhat from a normal RTS.
Aliens CAN destroy proto labs or advanced armourys to a similar effect but can't stop them building an other elsewhere, whilst taking a hive location clearly prohibits one of the 3 hives being built in that location.
As far as I am aware, the possesion of the 3 hive locations IS supposed to be a key indicator of who will win the game. Res towers allow you the tech/buildings to achieve and sustain that control.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Put simply, if you are looking for a final "End game vs. End game" situation, there is no such thing. Human and Alien end games are mutually exclusive, because the tide of power is almost entirely focused on the number of hives controlled by each race<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My paraphrased version of what Nemesis stands true here. It used to be possible for a End game vs. End game battle to happen in PT'ing, and it resulted in games that never ended. <b>Someone</b> has to gain a decisive edge, and its usually the team who can deny hive locations primarily, and res locations secondarily, to the enemy.
Comments
4 fades in 6 minutes is slow and probably just a bad example, its a shame so many people seem to pick up on this fact and act so immaturely towards it. 3 fades died every five minutes in the last game I played where a combination of old grenades (1.03) and rushing LMGers with no upgrades took on fade/lerk/gorges with webbing combo's... if nades are stronger then I can only see those three fades dying in three or even two minutes...which even the most staunch marine defenders would have to admit would be pretty fast.
-Lee
1.03 is definately marine favoured, but with some serverside messing around the gaming can become quite fun. After throwing on 1.04 on my server, I noticed that the gameplay just isn't as fun as it was. And im also a oldschool phase user. I REALLY hate using phase gates.
Since they will probly never budge on half of these issues, 1.03 is probly the last version that me and more than a few people are going to run.
<b>** I am learning to be nice **</b>
Infinite health, infinite ammo, powerful range attacks? Fades take s00p3r l337 5k1llz!
what? grenades go through walls?
I actually never noticed that acid rocket went through walls. Rule of thumb... <b>EXPLOSIONS NEVER GO THROUGH WALLS.</b> It simply doesn't make any sense. Forget "realism." It... it's just not possible. Damage is fine by me (maybe lower it a little, Onos in 1 clip seems pretty outrageous) but damage going through walls = <b>BIG NO-NO.</b>
(Of course, change acid rocket and bilebomb to be the same way)
[/disregard]
Edit. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could someone tell me how to reproduce the "grenades through walls" syndrome? I have my own draw damage on, and I've tried lots of scenarios and I can't get it to occur.
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful). - Flayra<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't see that.
PS: It isn't a HL mod thing. FLF doesn't have explosions going through walls either. Probably other mods exclude that too because it's plain dumb :\ (Once I killed a teammate through a wall by throwing a nade out the Assault door in CS, and got promptly Admin-Nuked. Wtf). [Just another FLF anecdote in my continuing crusade for recognition]
Don't let them get grenade launchers.
GL is a last-tier weapon, which usually comes after 2nd hive beasties.
Kill them before they get it.
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a grenade bug in DoD_Avalance which allows people to be killed by grenades on the other side of a particular wall down by the Allied spawn. IIRC, I heard something about the map wall being 'too thin'. Maybe that's your problem.
I think I'll put it right away from "don't let them get fades" which is slightly different.
man, I dunno if all these tactics are feasible for the human mind to comprehend.
-Lee
In regular Half-Life explosions did not damage through walls. It is NOT a "Half-Life thing".
Second of all, I think Flayra bumped up the damage on the grenade launcher to give the marines a form of a 'game ender'. The grenade launcher is obscenely expensive, it carrys only a tiny bit of ammo, and is useless as an offensive weapon (In the sense that: <u>Smart</u> Fade + You with grenade launcher = You dead.)
The aliens get the Onos, marines got- oh, midgame. There is:
Beginning Game
Mid Game
End Game
The marines have no End Game. All it is is Mid Game vs. Beginning Game towards the end. Where's the fun in that?
Finally it's the only thing to <b>effectively</b> solve the FRS (Fade R@pe Syndrome). If you're having a problem with grenade launching marines, believe it or not, but a skulk will work wonders...
That's my logic behind the boost, if I'm on the mark, say so, Flayra, because I want to know too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Plus, it may get everyone to hush up about "OMFGz!!1111 teh gernaed launhar r s00 l4m3 j00 mu$t b a n0ob!1!!11"
With marines the advancing of tech is so completely different that I don't think you can determine a team end game unless you're playiing in the server. One commanders end game could be another commanders mid game. One commander might finish off with HA/GLs, another might aim to finish up with JPers with only upgraded weapons and armour. Marines are too diverse in what they can do and what they can use to kill off all the aliens to set specific mid and end games so freely.
I assumed it was a half life thing as all mods I've played of HL have had it where grenades or explosives damage through walls. thats all.
Grenades being the marines end game, as you suggest flayra made it, is not a good idea. Grenade launchers aren't as slow to research as many people would like to fictionise, so it would make just about every game a 2 hive game, and never a three hive game. Games where aliens get fades and so utterly decimate the marines because they're apparantly unstoppable, or games where the comander gets the GL sorted quickly so that aliens don't really have the chance of winning from then on, even if they push the marines back to defend their own base.
Believe me, I'm sure you've played similar games, but when grenades are involved, it's carpet bombing and stalemate for a large portion of time until one alien is lucky enough to get through and not get shot down by the covering marines.
-Lee
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
GLs are cheaper then Siege, and about 3 times as effective. Just today we had a game go for 3 hours because Marines were whoring GLs. They didnt even have guys in HA before they handed out the GLs!
So 3 hours later, its a stalemate pretty much, Aliens have EVERY node on the map minus 1 or 2, we have tons of res, tons of OC/DC, tons of Fades, and they just kept 1 or 2 guys chucking nades into the entrance of the 1 hive we needed.
Grenade Launcher = Cheaper, and all around better then Siege in every way shape and form. Unless your to stupid to fire a GL, then maybe Siege is better <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The clip on the GL if anything is to big, with this new patch you can do 800 damage per clip. Thats 800 damage all at once, in a radius almost equal to half a city block. Does anyone think thats overkill?
Acid rocket might be lethal, but it dosent do 800 damage, it dosent go through walls, and it dosent kill anything in 1 clip (on a upgraded marine anyway).
edit: oh yeah, and acid rockets were firing considerably slower.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nades do even more damage now than in 1.0. They can be upgraded also! But sure, fades were poor foes back then.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Somehow, someway; I still assassinated many grenade toting fools, so I guess I must have had somethign going for me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, most likely that the general "skillz" level of the server populace were low. Now, 2+ months after, many players has some experience on Do's and Don'ts of both alien and mariens. Gives us a better game, but also a game were a Rambo Nadine arent so common. Comm would want to give one of the good marines the nade and try to give him heavy escorting.
Hmm, I envision maybe we will see more games where nades AND 3rd hive monsters battle. It used to be that when aliens got 3rd the end game was long overdue. Perhaps no more, if marines are forced to fight more ground wars with the aliens for res.I hope so.
However...
Thats not the problem...
The problem is when the aliens control all but two resource nodes on the map, while the marines have a base in two of the three hives. They're able to spam health and ammo packs, drop tons of weapons, and build buildings faster than we can destroy a single one..
With only two resource nodes.
I dont know about you, but I'd think thats a bit...unfair? They were able to hold off wave after wave of aliens, and EXPAND their bases, even, with only two resource nodes. We'd mow down their people, yet everyone would be equipped with an HMG/GL and Jetpacks. The ONLY reason their commander didnt hand out heavy armor? "It'd be too easy."
I believe if the resource flow is brought back under control, we'll lose the whole marine team with GLs issue we seem to be having..if they're made a little more expensive, and the resources flow alot slower, tha'd force the marines to use them STRATEGICALLY instead of just laying down a few dozen every few seconds.
And before any of you who flame and say "Stop whining and playing if you cant handle the game" jump on me, I've been playing it just as long as any of you, save for the Devs and their teams, and I play BOTH sides. Once we got GLs and heavies when I was playing as a marine, it didnt matter that the aliens had two hives..we just tore them apart. Our three or four nodes were giving us resources so fast that we could easily afford to outfit rambos with the best equipment.
I've won several games as an alien under this patch, but they were long and drawn out, even with three hives. I've also won as a marine..but...I've seen that even a not-so-great commander who at least knows how to research and drop stuff bring his team to victory through the ability to drop as much as he wanted because the resources flowed so freely.
Anyway, thats my point: the Grenade balance would be found if resources flowed slower and they were a bit more costly.
{edit}
Quick ammendment to what I posted: we didnt mean to let them get two hives in that game, its just that they relocated their entire base to Viaduct, and powersilo was under their control. They could phase people through to either location so quickly that it didnt really matter where we attacked-we stood no chance.
Or was that Jesus? I never can remember anymore.
-JKooL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well should u complain if ur team sucked (notice im not saying U so im not flaming) and they got three hives? its expected to happen -.-
exclude vents.. seriously... a few grenades popped in a vent will kill almost nything.... especially the fades cuz they are so slow in vents -.- <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Beginning Game
Mid Game
End Game
The marines have no End Game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens controlling 1 Hive = Alien early game
Aliens controlling 2 Hive = Alien mid game
Aliens controlling 3 Hive = Alien end game
Marines controlling 1 Hive = Marine early game
Marines controlling 2 Hive = Marine mid game
Marines controlling 3 Hive = Marine end (of the) game
Game stages are currently defined by the status of the hives, not by any evolutionary levels or equipment. The only way you can argue that marines have no end game is because as soon as marines hit end game, the game is over. Aliens just get to finish the game off with the humourous cloaked onos, the end result is the same in either case.
Marines have an early game advantage that allows them to secure a hive immediately, before a gorge has the resources to start a second. Which is why controlling 1 hive is considered marine early game.
Start of the game - Skulks vs. LA/LMG marines.
Early game - Upgraded Skulks vs. Upgraded marines.
Middle game - Lerks/fades vs. HA/HMG/JP/GL.
End game - Onos/3rd hive abilitys vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??
In 1.04, the GL has moved from a mid-game level of power to an end-game level of power.
Also in a thread I can't remember a dev (Nemesis I think) posted something along these lines.
Aliens have 1 hive = Marines superior.
Aliens have 2 hives = Equal teams.
Aliens have 3 hives = Aliens superior.
The reason for this Nemesis explained was that at one stage in the PT'ing it was TOO balanced, games would drag on for ages and ages, even at eth 3 hive stage. The problem now is that this setup has created the situation where control of the hives is secondary to everything else.
Start of the game - Skulks vs. LA/LMG marines.
Early game - Upgraded Skulks vs. Upgraded marines.
Middle game - Lerks/fades vs. HA/HMG/JP/GL.
End game - Onos/3rd hive abilitys vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know what he meant, my point was that his logic is flawed.
In a typical RTS such as warcraft, each team gradually increases in strength as the game goes on, starting off by pitting their tier 1 against each other, and finishing up with tier 3 battles. <b>NS does not work like this.</b> Only marines follow the 'gradual increase in power' model. The reason his view of early and late game are incorrect is because he assumes both teams follow the same model which they don't.
The power level of the alien side is significantly more important than that of the marine side. The increase in strength to an alien side when they gain an extra hive is much greater than any upgrade available to the marines. Rather than gradually increasing in strength, aliens swing back and and forth depending on the number of hives they control. The tech system is entirely different to the marines and its varying levels of strength cannot be compared to marine upgrade levels. Basic skulks are inferior to early game marines, Onos are superior to any marine unit.
For this reason, the upgrade level of marines is insignificant in comparison to the number of hives held by each side. The most effective way for marines to get an advantage over the aliens is not to increase their own strength, but to prevent the aliens from increasing theirs.
Put simply, if you are looking for a final "End game vs. End game" situation, there is no such thing. Human and Alien end games are mutually exclusive, because the tide of power is almost entirely focused on the number of hives controlled by each race. The final end game destination of either team is to control all 3 hives, it is impossible for Aliens and Marines to both control 3 hives, therefore there is no "ONOS vs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->". Either team controlling 3 hives is the end game - marine upgrades are only of secondary importance. Marine upgrades are simply 1 possible strategy used for the purpose of controlling more hives than the other team.
How the game was designed to work, or how the developers would like it to work is relatively meaningless - as of now, the game is a battle for control of hives. If you let the other team control 3 hives, you lose the game. There are no marine upgrades that change this situation.
Wether we'll see less focus on hives and a little more focus on resource collection in 1.04 remains to be seen, and won't be known untill many serious clan matches have been played on the patch, but looking at the current changes, i don't think there is much departure from the 1.0 gameplay. Hives will still be of primary importance, only it appears it has become slightly harder for marines to secure a second hive, and slightly easier for them to survive against 2 hive aliens.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines upgrade in a smooth progressive manner, aliens in jumps as they get hives. Otherwise standard RTS type match-ups exist as I posted earlier.
I do agree the ability of 'downgrading' the aliens by destroying hives or stopping them by taking hives does change the dynamics somewhat from a normal RTS.
Aliens CAN destroy proto labs or advanced armourys to a similar effect but can't stop them building an other elsewhere, whilst taking a hive location clearly prohibits one of the 3 hives being built in that location.
As far as I am aware, the possesion of the 3 hive locations IS supposed to be a key indicator of who will win the game. Res towers allow you the tech/buildings to achieve and sustain that control.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Put simply, if you are looking for a final "End game vs. End game" situation, there is no such thing. Human and Alien end games are mutually exclusive, because the tide of power is almost entirely focused on the number of hives controlled by each race<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My paraphrased version of what Nemesis stands true here. It used to be possible for a End game vs. End game battle to happen in PT'ing, and it resulted in games that never ended. <b>Someone</b> has to gain a decisive edge, and its usually the team who can deny hive locations primarily, and res locations secondarily, to the enemy.