The Power Of Equipped Marines
Gargamel
Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11773Members
Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11773Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Researching too late whats needed now</div> Most of the time (on public servers) I ve known only 2 Ways the Game will unfold:
1) Rushing
*Some Marines rush the unprotected Hive - Hive dead - GameOver
*Marines secure 2 Hives - Stupid Aliens have minimum Chance with Skulks and Lerks - GameOver
*Aliens rush Marines - All Marines Die - IP down - GameOver
2) 2nd Hive up
*Fades emerge - Marines have no upgrades - GameOver
*Fades emerge - Marines starting upgrade - Hell breaks out - Aliens get 3rd Hive - GameOver
The problem: Too late researching & upgrading
I ve played so many games where a Comm builds TF and Turrets and Siege only to destoy a large Offensive Chamber Position or Hive. Why not spend those res in upgrading your fellow Marines?
The cost of a small siege outpost(i hope correct):
TFact: 25
3Turrets:19x3 = 57
SiegeUpg: 25
Siege: 25
Summ 132
Thats almost 3 Marines in HA with HW.
You cant move the Siege Base! You CAN the Marines!
If you have 3 Marines HA and HMG, 2 MArines HA and Grenades (and maybe 1 Scout Marine with jetpack), tell me, as an alien, what could you do besides start running?
Ok, we may need 200 res to be able to build the stuff, but when a Fade has 48 res to evolve&upgrade, some Marines should also have 50 res for HA and HW!!
And even if you need desperately to destoy that OffensiveChamberSpam it would be better to loose 33 res for a grenade Launcher than 75 for a tf and siege!
You see, sooner or later you SHOULD be upgrading, so why not do it straight ahead so instead of a 2nd siege base you get your whole team equipped?
And dont forget giving out those little Welders that can make HA last so long you will have to give HA once every 5 min with res stalking up like **obscenity** from the alien **obscenity**!
Please tell me I am right, and that I will never win as a Turret-Builder again <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) Rushing
*Some Marines rush the unprotected Hive - Hive dead - GameOver
*Marines secure 2 Hives - Stupid Aliens have minimum Chance with Skulks and Lerks - GameOver
*Aliens rush Marines - All Marines Die - IP down - GameOver
2) 2nd Hive up
*Fades emerge - Marines have no upgrades - GameOver
*Fades emerge - Marines starting upgrade - Hell breaks out - Aliens get 3rd Hive - GameOver
The problem: Too late researching & upgrading
I ve played so many games where a Comm builds TF and Turrets and Siege only to destoy a large Offensive Chamber Position or Hive. Why not spend those res in upgrading your fellow Marines?
The cost of a small siege outpost(i hope correct):
TFact: 25
3Turrets:19x3 = 57
SiegeUpg: 25
Siege: 25
Summ 132
Thats almost 3 Marines in HA with HW.
You cant move the Siege Base! You CAN the Marines!
If you have 3 Marines HA and HMG, 2 MArines HA and Grenades (and maybe 1 Scout Marine with jetpack), tell me, as an alien, what could you do besides start running?
Ok, we may need 200 res to be able to build the stuff, but when a Fade has 48 res to evolve&upgrade, some Marines should also have 50 res for HA and HW!!
And even if you need desperately to destoy that OffensiveChamberSpam it would be better to loose 33 res for a grenade Launcher than 75 for a tf and siege!
You see, sooner or later you SHOULD be upgrading, so why not do it straight ahead so instead of a 2nd siege base you get your whole team equipped?
And dont forget giving out those little Welders that can make HA last so long you will have to give HA once every 5 min with res stalking up like **obscenity** from the alien **obscenity**!
Please tell me I am right, and that I will never win as a Turret-Builder again <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
You need:
armoury + upgrade
Prot Lab + HA upgrade
Arms Lab
The problem is that the research investment is already as much as an expansion.
So befor you see any kind of tactical payoff you've blown a tone of res. AND you're intrusting a LOT of your resource points to your marines who often turn out to be newbes who at the first upgrade go:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->whoooo I've got a big gun/armour!!! I@M IN VINCIBLE!!!! I@LL GO CHARGE THEM ALL ON MY OWN!!! MAN I P0WN I KILLED 15!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh*
BlueGhost
jetpacks/shotguns
HA/HMG
HA/Grenade launchers
instead of piling on turret farms after turret farms
PS/OT: Why don't commanders fill up as many RTs as possible? I always laugh when I run around and see empty RT's for no good reason
arms lab 50
proto lab 45
HA upgrade 50
adv. armory 35
so far you've spent more than 200rs, with nothing to show except upgrades. Now you haven't build IPs, costs 1rs for marines to spawn I believe. haven't spent anything on RTs, no phase gates.
I fully believe in empowering my marines. If I know I have a good team, I give them motion tracking or arms lab upgrade right off out starting res. Or maybe jetpacks within a few minutes. But crappy marines are crappy marines. and good aliens are good aliens. turrets are reliable in their own way. They are always there, and they always shoot.
as for the upgrade issue, laying down a siege camp is cheaper, more likely to work and more effective in the long term than sending in ha hmg men
as already mentioned, the upgrade path costs well over 200 res.
ha/hmg soldiers cannot really move very fast, and once they have taken out one nest it's a long way for them to move to the next. by then the first should be back up again as there is no siege keeping it clear.
also you forgot to mention welders. if you send out any team with ha's and no welder's it's a blatant waste of money
and MOST importantly, you seem to be focusing on equipment upgrades rather than arms lab upgrades. i see a lot of people doing this.
* equipment upgrades = jetpacks, ha, new guns
* arms lab upgrades = obviously ammo and armor upgrades from arms labs
arms lab upgrades are infinately more important than equipment upgrades in almost any situation, and if a commander upgrades an armory before laying down an arms lab then shame, shame on you!
firstly fully upgraded armor gives marines over 100 armor for the rest of the game with no ongoing cost
secondly upgrading ammo strengthens turret fire
thirdly most smart marines with upgraded lmg's can take out a fade two on one (a marine should NOT be alone remember)
and that's my opinion which is obviously the only one that counts <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I normally use the phase gate tactic to take the next hive spot then its arms lab upgrades first..i normally dont even have a prototype lab before i have lv 2 weapons and armor just because those lv 2 weapons and armor will help more overall then a single HA/HMG marine.
BlueGhost you are right, but let us consider marines stick together (and with a few meters distance from eachother, we dont wanna be killed by 1 skulk running blind chewing everyone), and at least the experienced Marines could protect the weaker ones or at least use them as bate <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Vicentegrad II, you got my point. I played ALien yesterday, the Marines had quickly our 1st hive and had build near our 2nd 1 TF and 8 Turrets (OMG!!!!) with 2 more being build as I got there. So he had spent already 225 res and probably wanted to siege. BUT, 3 of us as Skulks managed to run around like mad, slaying all marines(!) and with carapace upgraded took out the TF with our 3rd lives (yes of course we died 2 times) and the TF was out, all turrets DEAD. And THIS is what I call res-waste!
Chron, yep, you re right too, it takes way too many res ONLY for upgrading.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->turrets are reliable in their own way. They are always there, and they always shoot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that sentence <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Man, would I be happy if it always was true for Marines <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But it aint true for Marines and it aint true for Turrets either, because although they fire, they miss 2 much!
If you have lvl3 carapace and facing only 3-4 Turrets you can go to 1 Turret swing around in circle and bring it
down and even chew a second one to red before dying! And if the comm putted them nicely, you sometimes need only one to destroy before you can taste the TF without being hit!
(Not to mention what a Fade can do!!Circling turrets is so devastating, because Turrets cant turn themselves so fast!)
Trav/Akuma, I would prefer HA and not lvl3 armor upgrade, because lvl3 absorbs 60% and HA 95%, so a Commander wouldnt have to spam HealthPaks all the time. And 110 ArmorPoints is not so much :/
Then they might need 1-2 more skulk bites, dont they?
Id prefer the upgraded HA though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But in case you have low res its the best bet to have upgrades for all rather than 1 dumb HA guy...
Also you could just wait a little letting some HA guys stay in position at the Hive until you get those res for the TF and Ts <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The point is, they wont be able to Fade <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know I know, it takes time and res to upgrade to HA/HW, but what I was trying to say is to stop those turret spammings. Just build 3-4 turrets and 1-2 MArines guarding and all will be fine! Then we should concentrate on upgrading. Turrets are easy to kill, HA not, even with a fade. I got my caboose beaten as a Fade, only cause those evil Marines had a guy between them with HMG! (I was humiliated, they didnt have armor! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) Oh and quick researching jetpacks (which are very cheap I d say) rule <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Turrets are for guarding phase gates. put a phase near a RT, thats 2 birds, phase with RT in hive, thats 3 birds. I've spent many hundreds, probably over a thousand rs on turrets in a given game. But all those turrets are what make it POSSIBLE to keep my team focused on a single objective. I can't keep on yelling at them to leave the offensive to defend. Proper turret placement can hold off light skulk attacks for a decent amount of time. Put turrets against walls, so they can't circle them, corners if even better. have at LEAST 1 other turret in firing range of it. never leave a side of the factory in line of sight of only 1 turret. at least 2. All that, and turrets still wont do crap if you give them nothing but time and freedom to attack it.
Choose your turret locations wisely, and when you do, don't skimp on them. lay it on thick. Your objective is to never have to worry about that area again, don't shoot yourself in the foot by making another weak point in your network.
All that being said, I almost never put turrets in base until late game, and often times I'll get motion tracking upgraded right off of starting RS points. I think that is the fastest and most effective way to empower your marines at the start. Also, I spam health like it costs nothing, and its made a great many offensives that wouldn't have worked, work.
Armory: 25
Armory Upgrade:35
Armslab: 50
Protolab:45
HA Upgrade:50
HMG:25
HA:25
Welder:10
_________+
275 for first tank marine
Any new tankmarine = 60
Siege Base:
IP:15
TF:25
Upgrade:25
3t:37
Siege:25
_________+
127
Any new base: 127
So u can easily build 2 Siege bases in stead of upgrading
And siege bases are a piece as expensive as two marines (including medpacks)
But hey please Urza! I didnt mean upgrade right at START! omg! who would do that?
I mean when you already got 1 Hive and 3 res nodes or more, and game is becomming difficult for your marines to handle the situation, THEN start upgrading!
And dont tell me you dont build armory at start cause if you dont, me as a marine will HATE you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I need ammo darnit! I cant help it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You need a nice economy before you can spend 200 res for teching.
If you do that right at start you re a mofo! You ll die till you get even the prototype lab <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
After mebbi the 4th or 6th time of being munched while loading up to full ammo they may even defend the 1st hive instead of getting ammo!
Its a revalation! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost
a) HA is worse than jetpack. I choose not getting hit at all over the ability to take a lot hits. Jetpack marines also can move *FAST*. It takes just couple seconds to go all around the maps. Only lerk can be as fast and they are no match for hmg marines anyways.
b) HMG/GL etc are not that important. Instead of waiting for the upgrades to finish the marines should storm out to make at least some damage while waiting. It is utterly stupid to see 10 players camping in the base for the upgrades. That time the aliens have secured their new stances.
-I hate it when I have no armory at start as a marine! It doesnt cost much and when I try to kill 1 skulk i often loose a whole clip <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (mainly cause while hitting the skulk I try to draw "DIE YOU ALIEN BIATCH" on the wall behind it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) so I end up with my litle pistol and then face 2 Skulks.
If you got 5 Marines like me you re in trouble if you dont let us sit 5 min, smoking our cigarete and getting full ammo <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Jetpacks really can save a game! I often find myself alone in a Hive, just cause I got JetPack and went through the shafts,vents and jumped the alien OffChambers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
They really cost nothing ! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
70 armor: 3 bites.
90 armor: 3 bites.
110 armor: 4 bites.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A Commander whinning [...]
A Marine whinning [...]
Stop blamming [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, stop your "whinning" and "blamming"! (spellcheck dude) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
</offtopic>
You make some good points Gargamel. I'm a proponent of minimal-turret strategies. Turrets are expensive, and are best used as a deterrent when you can't spare marines for the same purpose. Drop 'em in that hive, maybe in the base (later), and siege your way in if the organic walls are too thick for bullets. Since you're not blowing res on superfluous turret emplacements, you'll better equipped to...better equip your marines. I prefer the passive upgrades, only handing out the big toys if we're floating in money, or if my grunts can't hold their own without them (which is usually a sign that we're going to lose anyway).
1.04 may bring about the need for more turrets. I like the decreased health of the phase gate, but their new fragility may necessitate more automated guns, since the manned ones will have less time to arrive.
JP's cost what? 9 res - whats 9 res? HA is like 50 res, and it sucks.
and BLUEGHOST : NICE IDEA <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, starting to upgrade as soon as the marines get it tough, will mean that most of your resurce towers will fall soon, as will your hivebase. The upgrades will come too late, so you have to choose between attempting to take a second hive or upgrading.
Actually, I think resource towers are the source of a lot of the balance issues seen on public servers.
A single marine has very little chance of killing a resource tower on his own, given the alien hive site, the speed of skulks, and the ineffectiveness of his weapons against it. In contrast, a single skulk can take out a resource tower in short order.
This encourages the aliens to build undefended resource towers all over the place such that they often end up with a huge resource advantage.
To make matters worse, a gorge can just plop down a tower and let it grow silently while he scampers off to a safer area, so capping nodes all over the place is pretty low risk for aliens. Marines have to stand around and make that loud welding noise for 20-30 seconds to get one up.
I have noticed life can be very tough for the aliens if the marines are aggressive in attacking the resource towers. You need a group of at least two marines to have a reasonable chance of taking one out though.
Its happened too many times : u put a res node down whick costs 22 and the marines will either die building it or it will last
only 10 or so res and be killed. This usually when the res is not close to a base.
If the res is close it is usually taken. or u trust your marines it can be good to place them everywhere because if u get say 30 back its still a gain of 8.
But is risky.
Hmm, Chron if you re correct I gotta reconsider the armor upgrades <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> thx
Jetpacks better than HA? Hmm, you cant say that. Both equipments have different purposes.
HA takes a decent ammount of damage and jetpacks give you manouverability.
Or in strategic words:
HA is for assaulting, JP is for infiltrating <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Mix those 2 and you get many nice surprises for the aliens <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
When you re alone and knife a res tower, try to sit in a spot where you can see what could come to you.
Sometimes this is difficult, as you may have many directions to keep an eye on, but even if you stop 1 sec listening you may surprise a skulk that thinks it can surprise you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thx to verbose for the grammar lesson <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> hihi I couldd smelll somethinggs wronng <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
thx for the replies all
I hate it when Marines win without any upgrades at all <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think assuming you need to give a nader HA or a JP is weird. 1 nader with 2 or 3 LMG marines guarding and welding him (YES you can weld light marines and YES it matters) and getting healthspammed is pretty godamn dangerous.
Capping random RTs doesn't work real well. What you need to do is grab a chokepoint or two and severaly restrict where those *(&&^ skulks can get to. Then cap the RTs behind it. Shipping tunnel in Caged (or is it Nothing? I always get those two mixed up) is ideal in this regard.
When comming, I never, ever grab two hives. I always go for upgraded marines vs. fades, since that's actually fun. My win/loss ratio on the pubs is roughly 40/60, but I think I have more fun that way. As for sieges, use them <i>defensively</i>, to hold the really important points like hives and double resource nodes.
-Kavasa