Gorges, 1 Or 2?
Evildwarf
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2489Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2489Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Whats the best?</div> I've played many PCWs and CBs games lately and noticed that the Khaara is very weak from the start,
skulks without carapace gets killed easily and when you once got carapace and are on even terms they
marines will soon get HMG's.
Due to this simple fact i've been trying to find out what's the fastest way to get the second hive without
getting totally owned on they way there.
Will one gorge really do a faster and more effective work then two?
Once each player has 33 res the gorge(s) will start to get everything, but how much resources do the gorges get if the players have below 33 res?
30% of total? 50%? Anyone know this?
The reason why 2 gorges could be better, or gorgejumping as i've come to call it is that you can cap nozzles faster, I havent tried this strat yet but I think it could work. Let's say we have a 6 player game.
Player 1 starts as a gorge, he builds a RT and continues to go for DC's (so the other players get carapace and wont get owned by the marines)
When Player to gets 33 Res he announces this to the team and caps a nozzle. Once he is done he morphs back to a skulk (or kills himself to save 4 res)
Player 1 continues with to cover chokepoints with OCs and DCs.
Player 3 goes gorge and caps a nozzle
This should be done until the team has 5 RT's, then the last person to go Gorge 2 collects for a hive, while Gorge 1 continues with defenses.
Gorge 1 could also act as a battlegorge if healing is needed, trying to stick pretty close to the frontlines and not getting killed.
The drawback with this strat is that you will be 1 player short most of the time, due to the constant switch of gorges it could also be a bit confusing. Still I believe that it's the fastest way to get resources even if you loose som on the way. It also loads some work of the 1 gorges shoulders.
What do you think?
skulks without carapace gets killed easily and when you once got carapace and are on even terms they
marines will soon get HMG's.
Due to this simple fact i've been trying to find out what's the fastest way to get the second hive without
getting totally owned on they way there.
Will one gorge really do a faster and more effective work then two?
Once each player has 33 res the gorge(s) will start to get everything, but how much resources do the gorges get if the players have below 33 res?
30% of total? 50%? Anyone know this?
The reason why 2 gorges could be better, or gorgejumping as i've come to call it is that you can cap nozzles faster, I havent tried this strat yet but I think it could work. Let's say we have a 6 player game.
Player 1 starts as a gorge, he builds a RT and continues to go for DC's (so the other players get carapace and wont get owned by the marines)
When Player to gets 33 Res he announces this to the team and caps a nozzle. Once he is done he morphs back to a skulk (or kills himself to save 4 res)
Player 1 continues with to cover chokepoints with OCs and DCs.
Player 3 goes gorge and caps a nozzle
This should be done until the team has 5 RT's, then the last person to go Gorge 2 collects for a hive, while Gorge 1 continues with defenses.
Gorge 1 could also act as a battlegorge if healing is needed, trying to stick pretty close to the frontlines and not getting killed.
The drawback with this strat is that you will be 1 player short most of the time, due to the constant switch of gorges it could also be a bit confusing. Still I believe that it's the fastest way to get resources even if you loose som on the way. It also loads some work of the 1 gorges shoulders.
What do you think?
Comments
1. Building DC's and OC's after only one RT will mean it takes a *long* time until the Skulks start overflowing.
2. 5 nozzles? Usually there are max 3 'safe' nozzles on a map, getting 5 without a second hive up will be hard (and risky).
3. Skulks morphing to put down an RT means that RT costs 35-39 pts (13+22+4), also it will mean that the Gorg will not get the overflow from that skulk. (It is *only* a good idea to do this if the skulk is really far from the gorg and the area is very safe).
4. With this tactic you will have 2 gorgs and much less overflow then usual, basically meaning you will get the second hive up very late, if at all.
5. Battlegorgs are not very useful until 2:nd hive is us (adrenaline and webs needed).
On to your real question, one gorge is most definetly the best option, unless you are in a very large game. Then you can have two. I find that 'gorge hopping' just slows down the dedicated gorges, even though it seems beneficial. The fastest route to the second hive is with one gorge building 3-4 resource towers en route to the hive, and immediately setting up when he gets there.
Do not build any chambers until the second hive is going up. Your skulks <i>should</i> be able to hold their own for this time. If you see that they are consistently getting slaughtered, you can pop down a chamber or two before saving for the hive.
In a game with good clans skulks wont survive without LV3 Carapace, they will get killed and your hive will get owned. Getting 4-5 RTs as fast as possible wont work.
Also, why I suggest 2 gorges is mainly because 1 gorge is almost required to build defenses, without a couple of OCs at vital points of the map the Khaara team will get beaten.
Gorge hoping would cost 22+13 = 35 Res*3 = 105 Res, when it would cost 22*3 = 66 Res. Thats a loss of
39 Res. 3 OCs or Half a Hive.
The point im trying to make is:
1. Will one gorge actually be able to build defenses, maintain defenses, collect for a hive, heal comrades and save his team from the marines.
2. Would 2 gorges be able to do the above points faster, more effective.
3. Would gorge hopping be more effective then the above alternatives?
Depending on the skill of the enemy marines, one gorge needs to set up D towers under the hive for faster hive healing/carapace.
Uncarapaced skulks are free frag counts for marines. (Use "status" in the console in case you did not know...)
The other gorge needs to cap nodes...
The two gorges should stick together, and heal.
They should stay in the initial hive, healing the hive until they have nearly enough money to cap a res. Depending on the server size, you only need to cap 2-3 res before you get the hive. While the hive is going up, you get overflow to cap plenty more.
<b>OCs are a <i><u>WASTE</u></i> of money until you get the 2nd hive going. Unless they are in large numbers, the marines can just kill them or run by them. Getting 2nd or 3rd level carapace is MUCH more important than getting a useless OC.</b>
As a gorge, you should stay near def towers with the carapace upgrade. When you are near two def towers, you should be able to take on two spawn equipped marines, and even kill one alone if you are not near your def towers, and the comm is not spamming health. Gorges are GREAT defensive weapons if they are near def chambers.
i say 8v8 you can do 2 gorges but ONLY if you have 8v8 or more, and the skulks have maxed out res.
**1** gorge at beginning, cap ONLY res nodes
3 or 4 is usually really good
skulks should be maxed really quick, get to the second hive
once the skulks get 33/33
your resources will skyrocket
once you get the second hive going, then another player can gorge
because the skulks have capped, the two gorges are getting a *LOT* of resources
this way you both can fortify both hives quickly
get up the 3 D chambers quick, so the skulks can carapace, and then OC's to protect
if you run into a res node, put a res tower up, to keep the resources going as fast as possible
once the second hive gets up, you can keep two gorges, but it's prefered if you only have one, so you can get fades quickly. get a movement up at a hive, and use the movement chamber, and build another movement. then another extra movement somewhere else.
i usually do 3 Ot's with 2 D chambers.. sometimes 3 if i have enough at the time.
block off every entrance (if two entrances merge into one, IE: Sat com hive in tanith, build OT's near the res node at the door way, instead of OT's at both of the satcom entrances
tip for that area: probably good to build near the one door, though, incase the marines blow the second passage, but i rarely see them blow the final wall
I did this, and i was at the second hive waiting to build, someone boosted me to the vents so i could save up, safely.. once i got in the vents, though, my res shot up and we got the second hive real quick <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I made up a new name "Commander rush" its funny to spectate some games in marine base and see how they all rush towards CC , at least 2 players are both trying to be commanders.
When the game starts, i usually see 2 gestating into Gorge, and after few minutes i see 3...maybe 4.. then we just have to repeat ourself "we have too many gorges."
My answer is, 1 good skilled gorge in the first minutes! maybe 5 to 10 minutes then a second gorge can be needed to build defenses. But only if this first gorge is actually doing for the team and nothing building a massive hiding place for him..The first minutes are probably the worst because, resources are extremely slow..now if you have 2 gorges, its even slower.
On hera, you are well served making your first building be an offensive chamber in processing near the resource node. If the marines can shoot, D-chambers are meaningless as skulks die with as opposed ot without carapace to good shots in a postion where they can use their range and you'r lack of range against you. On caged, If you start in gen, you will want to move to ventalation and block off the doors. That makes it either a 2-stage seige, or they have to come in thru the grate by pumping station 2.
there are many issues I have as a gorge with my skulks right now, let me talk about some of them...
1 gorge is best, if the skulks actually give the gorge some intel/scouting info, it makes a gorge's job a bunch easier. What do I mean by that? simple... Tell me what you see early on in their main.. Did they make a turret factory and turrets at main right away? Did they make IP,IP,Armory,OBS right away? Did they open IP/Armory/OBS? (fast motion tracking for a rush) IP,Armory,OBS/phase in main? Communication is key to be a good gorge in this game.
First things first, when you start as skulk, dont just rush right into their main, sit back, and "tag" a few, and tell me what they are making. If you rush the fastest route, the marines know right off where you started at. Now you can say, "the comm can find out anyway right away". I say a comm is concentrating on watching his guys, and getting his opening going right away in a timely manner. Typically a good comm doesn't look for another hive for 20-30 seconds, as he is helping his marines watch for skulks, and getting them objects to build. I want time to be able to evolve and paddle my beaver butt to the node I want before the comm start's looking around for me, and hears me moving. Imagine playing a 8v8 game, with you as the 1 gorge, where you knew at all times where the enemy was. Wouldn't that make your life much easier???
upgrades: People don't seem to understand, each upgrade can be used as a counter to a different marine "opening build". Defensive chambers for carapace if the marines open with TF's, movement for celerety if they open fast motion tracking. (armor is less then usefull, since they know you are coming long before you see them, move faster, make yourself a harder target to hit) Movement or sensory for either celerity or silence/cloak if they open fast HMG's. Cara does nothing vs. HMG as a skulk, try and use stealth instead. Vs. fast phase gates, sensory or movement for cloak or celerity/silence. It's easy to ambush a large group of marines if you lay in wait, and they cant see you..
As gorge, you are playing not only vs. the marines, but also directly against the commander. He uses a strategy he thinks his marines can execute and then win the game. You need to counter his strat with one of your own that you think gives your skulks the advantage. Once the players who complain when a gorge gets movement/sensory first try out a different upgrade in a different situation and use it properly, they will find that certain upgrades help out more vs. certain types of marines offensive's.
The bottom line is there is no set way to be gorge, all i know is less then 8v8, you only want 1. You also need to react to what your skulks tell you is happening, and build accordingly to best support them. They in turn have to make sure you dont die, and you have hive(s) to build in along with open nodes to takes.
But really, 1dc,1rt,2dc,1rt,hive is very flexible;<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize that you go 9-14-17-18 lmg shots when you have lvl0-1-2-3 carap as skulk?
Ie, is it really worth building the third DC just to live one LMG shot longer?
(i've played on servers with only max of 18 people.. 9 per team)
so on 12 player servers.. you'd get res pretty fast, so i'd imagine 2 would be good
DO NOT go gorge just to build a res node.. it wastes time, and more resources :/
the gorge jumping is better if it's ONE gorge, and a skulk
whenever i play with one of my friends, and they are gorge, i am usually defending them. i will boost them to vents so we can get to areas faster, and kill anyone who tries to hurt'em
this is the best solution, as if the gorge dies, you lose a lot of res that they were getting
and with only one gorge, they get a lot of the res.
6 or less aliens: one gorge, grabs the nearest RT, heads to the second hive, builds two def chambers and the RT there, then saves for the hive. If the marines are aggressive, and the skulks aren't keeping them away, build an off chamber before the 2nd RT and hive. With two def chambers, carapace and an off chamber, the gorge can keep jumping, dodging and healspraying, this kills most one or two marine attacks.
With 6 or fewer aliens, a second gorge takes too much firepower away from the aliens, _unless the marines are being slow/cautious. Against aggressive marines, you need every skulk you can get.
7+ aliens: 2 gorges. One to head to the 2nd hive and grab the RT and then save for the hive. The second grabs the RT near the first hive, builds defense chambers to get the upgrades going, and then either keeps grabbing RTs or builds defenses as needed, based on the actions of the marines.
The build order is never set, it varies based on the actions of the marines, the aliens, which map, which starting hive. But this is a good basic plan, just be flexible in setting it up.
Final note, either way, just say no to 'just going gorge long enough to set up a nozzle'. The time lost, the resources lost, the need to defend that nozzle, just don't do it. The return doesn't justify it, _unless the marines are idiots, slow and cautious. In which case, who cares what you?
One day people will wake up and realize cloaking and silence/celerety are great upgrades for skulks in early-game...
It will take 4 skulks to kill 2 marines who are good shots even with lvl 3 cara.. that means 2 marines in a 6v6 have no "keepers", that is bad news..
Also: going gorge to make a res tower is bad, you delay now until the main gorge gets all the extra overflow.