New Siege Cannon Properties

WUbba3 · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">I Love It!</div> I've always felt that in a game concerning Marines hunting Aliens on starships and whatnot, the bulk of the game should contain groups of Marines trudging down corridors trying to kill aliens with their rifles and shotguns, and the Aliens should be trying ambushes and whatnot.

The siege cannon did a wonderful job of destroying that whole system by allowing the marines to "Reach Out And Touch Someone" and not put themselves in much danger. Sure, the Aliens could counter-attack, but there's no way to ambush a turret farm.

Making the siege cannon require an artillery spotter keeps the siege cannon from being an unstoppable instant-game-win.

Sure, Marine buffs are gonna respond and complain about how much it costs to set up a siege base and how long it takes, but let's admit it - a Marine team with their act together can't be stopped by any alien team if they go for the phase/siege base tactic.

Now Aliens have a chance.

10RoUNdTOmMYgUN · December 2002

Lets hope , I really like it too.

But will the siege target when the comm scans.....me hopes so.

Sycophant · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But will the siege target when the comm scans.....me hopes so.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yeah, the siege turnip will target if/when the comm does a scan. The scan also costs more (<b>3</b> res instead of 1), so it probably won't be used too often to spam a siege target. Besides, the commander usually has more important things to do than to scan a room for 30+ straight seconds.

Sirus · December 2002

I like the whole idea, and it was being discussed about tagging the target. It's frustrating to get killed by a siege when the marines really have no idea your there. A welcome fix IMO.

Rico1 · December 2002

Frankly, im not very fond of the new siege change. I thought the sieges were fine the way they were and being the all around player that i am, i always play at least both teams per level and experience NS at it's fullest.

I have never run into an impenetrable defence, because there is no such thing. Marine sieges have never posed a problem for me, or any organized, or semi-organized team of aliens. A single coordinated attack is usually enough to take out a siege base. Why? Because the marines have to respawn, get to the location, and kill the aliens before they destroy the base. Of course, you have aliens destroying the phase gate, if any first, then the turret factory. Priority lies in the marines, if they die, the base dies, its that simple. All aliens need to do, is work as a team (And this is a teamplay mod after all) and attack as a group. Add in hivesight into the picture and you have a VERY easily coordinated attack that can take out any base. If the marines have HA and HMGs and you only have skulks, well, let me tell you, you already lost, siege or no siege, youre dead.

So, after all this explanation, i really see no reason why the siege changes should stay for the final patch. Even public servers have enough teamwork to kill a siege base, and if your team doesnt, youre dead either way. This only makes it more difficult for marines to actually attack a base, forcing them to stay on the defencive and act as "artillery spotters", something i thought the dev team would be against since it actually either encourages camping for siege targets, or makes commanders waste a huge amount of resources on a single target due to the also increased cost of scanner sweeps.

Bottom line: I dont really like the siege changes, everything else looks great to me.

Insidious · December 2002

I havn't gotten in on much testing yet, but I have to say my experiances with the new sieges have been good. I noticed marines sticking together better when the commander starts building sieges. I think this is a direct result of adding marines into the picture when sieging. No more playing the commander's grease monkey the whole game, doing nothing but walking here, building stuff, walking there, building stuff, kill aliens that attack once in awhile (but the turrets do most of that, too). I had fun spotting for the siege, and I was having fun fighting off aliens trying to keep their structures from being seen. This also means more of the maps are being USED. Marine's don't have to spend the whole game defending one target or the other. I think this has put the marine's themselves into a much more active role, and a much more desirable one.

This may actually turn into an advantage for the marines (in pubs). It's much easier to go beserk and kill several marines at a time as a skulk when they're clustered in the middle of buildings they can't navigate through, but a skulk can duck inbetween with ease. Most of my biggest streaks (4-5 marines at a time) have been when they're defending an outpost with lots of turrets. Now that they have to move away from their structures to spot, I think they'll be deadlier, and will learn to be better fighters for not having turrets as a crutch (and a liability) all the time.

SemperFi · December 2002

I love the new sieges, no longer can marines just hide behind thier siege bases. It does make a big difference. Also im loving 1.04, 8/10 games ive played so far have been decided by three hives not two. Its fun to see the two sides sorta evolve with each other. Skluks vs marines, then fades vs HA and HMGS. But yeah gj NS team.

pardzh · December 2002

I love the new siege rules.

Before the Marines could sorta 'sneak up' on your base without you knowing about it at ALL. Now you can at least say, "Gee, is that guy in armor <i>supposed</i> to be in our hive room?", and then eat him. You can react to them building the siege and at least keep it from firing(exception being scans, but more on that in a few lines)while your guys group up for a run on the turret farm. It really encourages teamplay on both sides, since you gotta have your aim top notch as a marine to stay alive in a hive room/hall lined with offense chambers when spotting for your siege.

The up in scan cost is a good thing too with this change to the sieges. Prolly woulda seen people just spamming scans on hives. But with the new cost, it gets rather expensive. A scan lasts for roughly two siege hits, and at 3rp/600(?) damage, that's a lot of RP. You also have to tear through all the crap buildings in front of the hive and account for any healing done to it between hits. So you can't just scan spam, unless you have a lot of res.

Yay for 1.04! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

SemperFi · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Dec 28 2002, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But with the new cost, it gets rather expensive. A scan lasts for roughly two siege hits, and at 3rp/600(?) damage, that's a lot of RP. You also have to tear through all the crap buildings in front of the hive and account for any healing done to it between hits. So you can't just scan spam, unless you have a lot of res.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yeah exactly, its going to be alot harder to take out hives by just siege crawling. Now you need at least two sieges if you dont feel like wasteing a million res tyrign to scan the hive.

masterswordman · December 2002

Well, the <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> is one of those things that make the game a bit unfair, kinda like the....

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'> GAME TIME :35

SemperFi · December 2002

How does the siege make things unfair? please explain. I could say the same for the onos....or a fade....or any upgrade. How bout HA that gives the marines a distinct advantage over the skulks......

Ness · December 2002

Probably because a fade and an onos can't launch UNBLOCKABLE PROJECTILES THROUGH WALLS. But that's just from my experience, unless the aliens have some creepy "ghost" evolution i never saw that lets them go through walls (for those of you wondering..no...they don't).

Vyvn · December 2002

I'm not one to talk, since I've only played one quick 1.04 game. But if it turns out to be a large disadvantage to the marines, I'm not sure I agree with the siege change. I'd love to know what servers you guys play on where the marines always win.

Still, I can definately see the advantages to this change, since it puts a much bigger emphasis on *fighting*, not just getting a cannon up. Who knows, this may actually work to the marines' advantage, since it encourages them to play aggressively and actually keep watch over their defenses, not just throw down a siege cannon and leave it to the skulks.

Beetlejuice · December 2002

This is an awesome change. I allready thought sooner or later the siege cannon would be the end of ns since i could not think of a way to balance a weapon which does massive dmg in a large radius without ever seeing anything and i was quite sure that dev team does not want to remove it since it is one of those very unique features of ns that the dev team surely has put much effort in. But it seems you found a way, and a very good one as well. I now played several rounds with 1.04 patch on a server with medium to good skilled players on both teams and was impressed on how balanced both teams are now. In 1.03 skilled players on both sides meant nearly sure victory for marines since skulks are dead before they enter bite range early game and all alien structures are just a big waste of resources mid to late game since every importaint point in the map will be sieged. In 1.04 victory was equally shared among both teams. While now there is the possibility to actually counter siege cannons they are still an awesome weapon for all but those base camping marines which have been around more and more. With this changes we will actually see marines fighting for their victory again instead of sitting in their bases and winning with lmg/la.

Only thing which bothers me a bit about 1.04 is the way the rr exploit was fixed. I can not think of another way to fix it, but having aliens loose up to 100 resource points on every linkdead and leaving alien could turn out to be a big hit on not so stable servers. Maybe the server could keep a list of the won ids of the last 10 aliens who left the game and the rp they had as they left. This way they could get their rp back when they reconnect again and at least linkdeads would not be big resource point hits anymore.

Narfwak · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Dec 28 2002, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But that's just from my experience, unless the aliens have some creepy "ghost" evolution i never saw that lets them go through walls (for those of you wondering..no...they don't).</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sure they do. It's called "admin_noclip" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

intended-mayhem · December 2002

With sieges they take time to put up, u have to build a TF, then turrets, then up grade the TF, and a phase gate (but that’s first normally). But soon as u start to build it makes so much noise, and if the alien team is smart they will all attack at once as soon as they here it building. So its not unfair its just the matter of how good the team work is on the alien side

(TF = Turret Factory if you’re a n00b <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>)

Brain_Cleaner · December 2002

it also removes the whole being an alien and going "christ they're getting a seige up! take it down!" 'cos then all the aliens time is devoted to getting that cannon down, but now if the marines have to have a spotter it'll be "get that spotter down"

it will end the marines "sit back for a few mins and let the seige cut through" now atleast the aliens can make a fight of it even if they are destined to lose...

MooMan · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Dec 28 2002, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But that's just from my experience, unless the aliens have some creepy "ghost" evolution i never saw that lets them go through walls (for those of you wondering..no...they don't).</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, with any luck the dev team are still considering what they wrote in the manual about fades <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

IF you don't know, it is that fades are actually able to blink THROUGH walls, on to the other side(hence the name of fade).

IMO that would be so cool, as a fade could blink into an outpost/hive that has an arse load of defence at the front/enterance <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

SO, yes there IS a ghost alien, just not been implemented yet <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Hang_Loose · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vyvn @ Dec 28 2002, 04:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm not one to talk, since I've only played one quick 1.04 game. But if it turns out to be a large disadvantage to the marines, I'm not sure I agree with the siege change. I'd love to know what servers you guys play on where the marines always win.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yeah, I agree, I'd love someone to show me a pub where the marines always win.

Archzai · December 2002

wait.. how does the seige turret having to have a "sight" now change nything?

COs can still hide their seige turrets nywhere and jus have a marine fly in cant they?

o and wut changes have aliens experienced?? dont fades still own marines??

well i haven't played 1.04 yet so i dunno..

SemperFi · December 2002

No fades no longer own marines. They own lmg/la marines with no upgrades but thats how it should be. Fades vs HA/HMG now = good match. The game is no longer won once one side gets two hives. Aliens no longer just rush the marine base once they get fades. People actually care about the third hive now which is how it should be.

And as for servers with marines winning, try any one that isnt filled with n00bs. I personally see them winning all the time on Hastezone.

Teufel_Eldritch · December 2002

IMO it didnt change much with the siege cannons at all. All a CC has to do is ping scan a area to get the cannon to fire on target. Whats that cost 3 res points? BFD. Same effect as before just delayed only by the time it takes to get 3 res points.

DlCK · December 2002

I'm loving the LOS seige of 1.04. I've played only 1.04 servers for the last week and the fights have been great on both sides. It is a lot of fun backing up the spotter as he tries to poke his head around the corner.

I've also noticed that the commander's tactics are a lot better now and that marines are sticking together a little better.

The games are much closer to a 50/50 winning than on the 1.03 servers I have played, even though the quality of the players have not changed.

I was worried about the 1.04 seige being nerfed so much, but so far so good.

BTW, THANK YOU FOR TESTING 1.04 ON PUB SERVERS!

As many people have mentioned, pub games and vet games have very different qualities.

masterswordman · December 2002

I agree with most stuff, since the seige cannons should just help the attack. Once I saw 4 HMG and HA marines walk into a protected hive and get viaduct with no seige, now the seige will be used what it should be used for gorg on the viaduct walkways kills with no jetpacks lol.

HERES WTF I MEAN.

BlueGhost · December 2002

The thing that annoys me is you can no longer hold hives AND locations next to said hive with a siege.

Previously if there was a hive with a res point outside that hive you could put up a little mini base and a siege cannon and that was the hive and the res point 'held'.

NOW it is no longer possible, basically this makes it harder for the marines to get res on maps where there are res points that don't have LOS on the hive.

However, I must play the changes to see how the game now PLAYS befor I make any real decision (And that's not gonna happen till i'm back on our connection at uni <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> )

BlueGhost

DlCK · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Dec 30 2002, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The thing that annoys me is you can no longer hold hives AND locations next to said hive with a siege.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Exactly. Aliens now have a chance to use some real tactics against the completely abondon base.

BTW, you can still put up a siege cannon and phase in once in a while and check out the surrouing area. All you have to do is poke out your head.

Smart players will check up on their hives since they have to jump through 5 phases anyways.

pardzh · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hang Loose @ Dec 30 2002, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vyvn @ Dec 28 2002, 04:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm not one to talk, since I've only played one quick 1.04 game. But if it turns out to be a large disadvantage to the marines, I'm not sure I agree with the siege change. I'd love to know what servers you guys play on where the marines always win.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yeah, I agree, I'd love someone to show me a pub where the marines always win.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Nano-Gridlock, the ReD Skulk Pit, Vadakill's, TAU's server...

Just a few, check for 'em on ASE.

New Siege Cannon Properties

Comments