ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Hence, why I DON'T play CS.
Stick to AHL & NS. There's very few thank god for that. And that's only because they can only figure out how to install CS Retail™ (etc etc, probably 50 copyrights broken)
Clan games are a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY when it comes to NS, it is so much harder than in a pub, cos ppl are actually looking everywhere in teams of 3-5, checking all corners and celings.
Also when a person gets hit by a skulk, a med pack is on them IMMEDIATELY, so they can take another 2 bites <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basiclly, marines are very good in CWs, due to the nature of their basic tactics and early power.
Rushes by skulks just DO NOT work <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, yes the top clan in CB - my clan played them a few days ago in a friendly - OMG the HMG RUSH - 3mins into the game they had 3 ppl out of the base with HMGs, and 1 other guarding the base. They had hardly expanded at all.
Then what happened was that they set up a siege base outside our hive!!!! At this point the marines were expanding a bit, with a few RTs.
Thing is they guarded OUR base so well, we could hardly get out of it, and then they had god damn sieges killing the hive, at about the time we had 3 RTs!
Needless to say we got owned, and we are not exactly bad as aliens, in fact we are pretty damn good. The thing is we managed to kill about 2 mairnes in TOTAL over the WHOLE GAME!!! The HMGs would NOT let us get anywhere NEAR them, no matter what we did.
Now I admit they were amazing shots, and we could have done a few things better, but the fact is that they got the HMGs up SO QUICKLY, we had no chance to defend against it at all <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
In CWs this is a major tactic, as it works 90+% of the time, you just have to be good and coordinated, and the fact is most good clans are very coordinated!
This again can be easily solved, by making the advanced armory need an arms lab, as this would actually make more sense in the game perspective, due to the HMG being a mid/late game weapon, NOT an early one that can be rushed.
If the devs dont want to do that, then there should be some way to get fades 3-4 mins into the game to make it fair, but of course that would TOTALLY screw the game up.
I do really like the changes you guys have made in 1.04, as it is more balanced from a CW point of view, but the HMG rush is a MAJOR problem. I ssay leave the values alone, just make it require an arms lab.
But, at least if they dont use an HMG rush, aleins have more of a chance to kill the damned rushes! TY DEV team <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think I'll need to run faster in the RR to get on alien now <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hrmmm, being that most of my comments come from a clan perspective I rarely post on the forums as I don't feel that they apply to the majority of players. However, it seems that this thread has quite a few clan players paying attention to it; so that gives me an opportunity to join the discussion. The topic is the HMG rush, and to be honest, I fail to see its uber-power. I'm not saying that it is easy to defend against at all, but considering that the LMG rush wins with two evenly matched clans 95% of the time, I do not see the HMG rush as being any worse. With the added cost of some of the structures etc, my math tells me that the commander can outfit four of his marines with HMGs around the 3 and a half minute mark. Of course, at this point, the marines have 0 resources, which means that there can be zero scanner sweeps, health pack drops, ammo, etc. Assuming the marines wait for 30 seconds before heading out (to generate a minimum of resources), we reach the four minute mark. At this point the LMG rush would have probably decided the game in the marines' favor. Maybe it's more frustrating to die to marines who have teched up quickly, but in my opinion the end result is still the same.
To sum up, the marine rush has always been the only viable strategy to use in clan play. The reason it's so effective is because of scanner sweep. Sure, marines are more powerful than skulks in the early game in a fair fight, but a skulk can quickly dispatch marines if he can catch them by suprise. The problem is that there is no suprise currently with what scanner sweep costs. Increasing the cost to 3 helps quite a bit, but I might be (and I have not played a clan match with 1.04, so I cannot be certain) inclined to think that the cost should be higher. Let the marines use it once or twice on the way to the hive for the most obvious of ambush areas, but no more. Being able to haul booty to the hive with the commander spamming scanner sweep is, in my opinion, completely unfair to the aliens who must use stealth to win.
Up the cost for scanner sweep so it has to be used sparingly, and I will gladly chomp HMG toting marines from behind; they die just as quickly as an LMG marine and cost the marines 25 resource points instead of 0.
I see the reason for def chambers not healing themselves, and I think it's a good idea.
If a cmdr uses scan sweep to get his siege to fire, the siege will fire at closer structures first, aka DEF towers before hives. So if you have 3 def towers, between shots, and scans, they could probably heal themselves right back up.
And let's keep in mind, if gorg's didn't make these ridiculous "walls of lame", then we WOULD attack it as marines. But marines VS 5 OT's with 5 DT's behind them... not very likely to survive.
Ok is the consensus that DC do not heal themselves but another DC could heal one beside it? Or can gorges only heal them? I don't know if this has been answered or if the dev team is clear enough. Someone who has played on 1.04, enlighten me please <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Home Star Runner+Dec 24 2002, 08:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Home Star Runner @ Dec 24 2002, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see the reason for def chambers not healing themselves, and I think it's a good idea.
If a cmdr uses scan sweep to get his siege to fire, the siege will fire at closer structures first, aka DEF towers before hives. So if you have 3 def towers, between shots, and scans, they could probably heal themselves right back up.
And let's keep in mind, if gorg's didn't make these ridiculous "walls of lame", then we WOULD attack it as marines. But marines VS 5 OT's with 5 DT's behind them... not very likely to survive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, as far as I can tell, the wall of lame is there to make it hopefully impossible for a ninja jetpack knifer to fly in. You simply have to obstruct, given the fairly obvious fact that on any flat roof a jetpacker can reach insane speeds that are almost impossible to track. Believe me, I've stayed alive for over five minutes in a long hallway with three fades in it, having precisely zero ammo and health in the red. The roof was flat, therefore I could skate along it (**obscenity**, whatever that helmet is made out of, I WANT it) at approximately seven thousand miles an hour. Meanwhile I was of course begging my CC to spam some medpacks and ammo...but he obviously couldn't drop them ON me and the moment I landed I was set upon by several **obscenity** off fades. The JP would have no problems if the game engine didn't let you slide along surfaces (like ceilings).
If you are from a server where the skulks initially rush every time, stop reading. If you dont IMMEDIATELY understand that a full initial Hive health is specifically to induce less DC->RT->RT->... action, just stop reading. Shockwave, this means you.
Phase gates were increased in cost and structurally weakened for what reason? To balance them in a simple way...make them more costly and less permanent. Instead of a creative STRATEGIC change, like moving it up the tech tree, it was simply nerfed in ways that are barely important. The window for marines to make a successful attack on the hive is very large in 1.03. You have a good 10+ minutes before the aliens will even START a second hive. In 1.04b the marines will have to actually wait for resources, reducing the window to more like 5+ minutes before the aliens START a second hive (another 5 min). I am not going to discuss how I got these numbers, however those who play a LOT will see the validity through testing with stopwatches (recommended). Back to my original point, essentially you have 5 less minutes to show how ungodly marines eat ungodly skulks for breakfast with a forward Phase. But will 5 less minutes matter? You haven't changed anything. The idea that a phase gate with less hp will not last as long is fairly naiive way to balance. The actual result will be PG maintenance. Marines will either wait for towering or post guard for times when the PG is typically left unguarded now.
The rest of the changes are rather elementary for increasing the fun factor of the game. The IP change is not enough. I suspect, as I have said since the beginning (with the linux MT update), you will see pg rushes less and more ip, arm, obs, motion. Marines v Skulks with motion sensors, it's no contest...but that's currently debated because most of the servers available are either too nooberiffic or too laggy. The welder change is welcome. Now it will take even LONGER for HA/Weld teams to overrun the single hive. Jumppacks are essentially boosted <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The fade change is inconsequential. Halve fade projectile damage or make misses not splash, that would be a change. The comm scan is a huge marine nerf and after being pointed out, it's not nearly enough. Try 5? (arbitrary, but definitely more).
I'll be flamed or whatever. I play a lot and these are my observations and predictions which I am comfortable enough to post for posterity (alliteration!).
Eh? seriously, you fail too see the power of the HMG rush... then you must indeed be blind. In clanwars a good marine time will easily kick the **obscenity** of a good alien team with the HMG rush strat. Its lame and its totaly kickass, ill let your clan play my clan with the HMG strat any day to show its power, im 100% certain that you wont survive the rush. Claiming that the LMG rush is more powerful then the HMG rush is just bull, most of all when you can do both at the same time. Why not start with a LMG rush and finish the game off with a HMG rush, there is nothing that can prevent it to be honest. Face the facts, DEF chambers is a requirement for the aliens to have a fighting chance, by the time marines have researched HMGs the aliens will have lv3 carapace at the most, like this will make a difference. A skulk still dies of 5 HMG shots even with this upgrade, try to ambush us as much as you like, you will fail. 5 marines vs 5 skulks will still kick their **obscenity** even with only 2 HMGs, 5 shots of a HMG will be enough to whack a skulk, and if a HMG marine dies a basic marine will be right behind him to pick the HMG up. Understand, even with only decent marines they will still own you and your hive, if they are to loose versus 5 crappy skulks they really have to suck. Face the facts, HMG rush is too powerful it has to be nerfed in some way, if people dont agree on this point all clanwars will end in HMG rushing marines. And that just sucks.
I really hate this, people who think they know everything even though they know bull, yes call me arrogant, but I do know that they HMG rush is a important issue for the whole clanbalance of NS, and I do know that it's way to powerful. yeah yeah yeah, you think I suck and believe that im a noob. Dont judge me before you have seen a good clan perform this devastating strat, and how many of you have done that?
FACT: Crappy SENS chambers wont work, Crappy movement chambers wont work, FACT there is no way to counter this strat save pure luck. If you dont agree you are wrong = FACT
I agree with most of the changes that may come in with 1.04.
I would like to see a change to the upgrades marines get, if an alien distroys there armory they still get to buy HMG ect when they build new one but you take out a 2nd hive then BANG goes the fades and upgrades until new hive is built (which will as you know cost another 80 res and take ages to build, where the armory does cost less and takes alot less time to build), So Marines should loose the ability to buy HMG ect and have to build and upgrade to get HMG ect back if there's is distroyed (in my opinion), Ok marines have to upgrade each armory to drop in that location but with PG's it's easy to pop back to spawn pick up HMG PG back to last location.
Hope that makes sence as I am tired, been doing me santa bit for the kids :-)
HMG rush sucks, you still die in 2 bites, and a skulk can always get you from behind. In my clan's server whenever some marine team does HMG rush, they get obliterated. It's just so easy to ambush a team of marines that don't have motion tracking. Evildwarf don't be such an @$$hole
I like to wait for the patch to be released before I make any comments. Maybe it's just me but I like to <i>have</i> the finished product before I <i>judge</i> it.
I think Flay deserves that much. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Stick to AHL & NS. There's very few thank god for that. And that's only because they can only figure out how to install CS Retail™ (etc etc, probably 50 copyrights broken)
Clan games are a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY when it comes to NS, it is so much harder than in a pub, cos ppl are actually looking everywhere in teams of 3-5, checking all corners and celings.
Also when a person gets hit by a skulk, a med pack is on them IMMEDIATELY, so they can take another 2 bites <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basiclly, marines are very good in CWs, due to the nature of their basic tactics and early power.
Rushes by skulks just DO NOT work <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, yes the top clan in CB - my clan played them a few days ago in a friendly - OMG the HMG RUSH - 3mins into the game they had 3 ppl out of the base with HMGs, and 1 other guarding the base. They had hardly expanded at all.
Then what happened was that they set up a siege base outside our hive!!!! At this point the marines were expanding a bit, with a few RTs.
Thing is they guarded OUR base so well, we could hardly get out of it, and then they had god damn sieges killing the hive, at about the time we had 3 RTs!
Needless to say we got owned, and we are not exactly bad as aliens, in fact we are pretty damn good. The thing is we managed to kill about 2 mairnes in TOTAL over the WHOLE GAME!!! The HMGs would NOT let us get anywhere NEAR them, no matter what we did.
Now I admit they were amazing shots, and we could have done a few things better, but the fact is that they got the HMGs up SO QUICKLY, we had no chance to defend against it at all <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
In CWs this is a major tactic, as it works 90+% of the time, you just have to be good and coordinated, and the fact is most good clans are very coordinated!
This again can be easily solved, by making the advanced armory need an arms lab, as this would actually make more sense in the game perspective, due to the HMG being a mid/late game weapon, NOT an early one that can be rushed.
If the devs dont want to do that, then there should be some way to get fades 3-4 mins into the game to make it fair, but of course that would TOTALLY screw the game up.
I do really like the changes you guys have made in 1.04, as it is more balanced from a CW point of view, but the HMG rush is a MAJOR problem. I ssay leave the values alone, just make it require an arms lab.
But, at least if they dont use an HMG rush, aleins have more of a chance to kill the damned rushes! TY DEV team <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
To sum up, the marine rush has always been the only viable strategy to use in clan play. The reason it's so effective is because of scanner sweep. Sure, marines are more powerful than skulks in the early game in a fair fight, but a skulk can quickly dispatch marines if he can catch them by suprise. The problem is that there is no suprise currently with what scanner sweep costs. Increasing the cost to 3 helps quite a bit, but I might be (and I have not played a clan match with 1.04, so I cannot be certain) inclined to think that the cost should be higher. Let the marines use it once or twice on the way to the hive for the most obvious of ambush areas, but no more. Being able to haul booty to the hive with the commander spamming scanner sweep is, in my opinion, completely unfair to the aliens who must use stealth to win.
Up the cost for scanner sweep so it has to be used sparingly, and I will gladly chomp HMG toting marines from behind; they die just as quickly as an LMG marine and cost the marines 25 resource points instead of 0.
If a cmdr uses scan sweep to get his siege to fire, the siege will fire at closer structures first, aka DEF towers before hives. So if you have 3 def towers, between shots, and scans, they could probably heal themselves right back up.
And let's keep in mind, if gorg's didn't make these ridiculous "walls of lame", then we WOULD attack it as marines. But marines VS 5 OT's with 5 DT's behind them... not very likely to survive.
If a cmdr uses scan sweep to get his siege to fire, the siege will fire at closer structures first, aka DEF towers before hives. So if you have 3 def towers, between shots, and scans, they could probably heal themselves right back up.
And let's keep in mind, if gorg's didn't make these ridiculous "walls of lame", then we WOULD attack it as marines. But marines VS 5 OT's with 5 DT's behind them... not very likely to survive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as far as I can tell, the wall of lame is there to make it hopefully impossible for a ninja jetpack knifer to fly in. You simply have to obstruct, given the fairly obvious fact that on any flat roof a jetpacker can reach insane speeds that are almost impossible to track. Believe me, I've stayed alive for over five minutes in a long hallway with three fades in it, having precisely zero ammo and health in the red. The roof was flat, therefore I could skate along it (**obscenity**, whatever that helmet is made out of, I WANT it) at approximately seven thousand miles an hour. Meanwhile I was of course begging my CC to spam some medpacks and ammo...but he obviously couldn't drop them ON me and the moment I landed I was set upon by several **obscenity** off fades. The JP would have no problems if the game engine didn't let you slide along surfaces (like ceilings).
Phase gates were increased in cost and structurally weakened for what reason? To balance them in a simple way...make them more costly and less permanent. Instead of a creative STRATEGIC change, like moving it up the tech tree, it was simply nerfed in ways that are barely important. The window for marines to make a successful attack on the hive is very large in 1.03. You have a good 10+ minutes before the aliens will even START a second hive. In 1.04b the marines will have to actually wait for resources, reducing the window to more like 5+ minutes before the aliens START a second hive (another 5 min). I am not going to discuss how I got these numbers, however those who play a LOT will see the validity through testing with stopwatches (recommended). Back to my original point, essentially you have 5 less minutes to show how ungodly marines eat ungodly skulks for breakfast with a forward Phase. But will 5 less minutes matter? You haven't changed anything. The idea that a phase gate with less hp will not last as long is fairly naiive way to balance. The actual result will be PG maintenance. Marines will either wait for towering or post guard for times when the PG is typically left unguarded now.
The rest of the changes are rather elementary for increasing the fun factor of the game. The IP change is not enough. I suspect, as I have said since the beginning (with the linux MT update), you will see pg rushes less and more ip, arm, obs, motion. Marines v Skulks with motion sensors, it's no contest...but that's currently debated because most of the servers available are either too nooberiffic or too laggy. The welder change is welcome. Now it will take even LONGER for HA/Weld teams to overrun the single hive. Jumppacks are essentially boosted <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> The fade change is inconsequential.
Halve fade projectile damage or make misses not splash, that would be a change. The comm scan is a huge marine nerf and after being pointed out, it's not nearly enough. Try 5? (arbitrary, but definitely more).
I'll be flamed or whatever. I play a lot and these are my observations and predictions which I am comfortable enough to post for posterity (alliteration!).
Eh? seriously, you fail too see the power of the HMG rush... then you must indeed be blind. In clanwars a good marine time will easily kick the **obscenity** of a good alien team with the HMG rush strat. Its lame and its totaly kickass, ill let your clan play my clan with the HMG strat any day to show its power, im 100% certain that you wont survive the rush.
Claiming that the LMG rush is more powerful then the HMG rush is just bull, most of all when you can do both at the same time.
Why not start with a LMG rush and finish the game off with a HMG rush, there is nothing that can prevent it to be honest. Face the facts, DEF chambers is a requirement for the aliens to have a fighting chance, by the time marines have researched HMGs the aliens will have lv3 carapace at the most, like this will make a difference.
A skulk still dies of 5 HMG shots even with this upgrade, try to ambush us as much as you like, you will fail. 5 marines vs 5 skulks will still kick their **obscenity** even with only 2 HMGs, 5 shots of a HMG will be enough to whack a skulk, and if a HMG marine dies a basic marine will be right behind him to pick the HMG up.
Understand, even with only decent marines they will still own you and your hive, if they are to loose versus 5 crappy skulks they really have to suck.
Face the facts, HMG rush is too powerful it has to be nerfed in some way, if people dont agree on this point all clanwars will end in HMG rushing marines. And that just sucks.
I really hate this, people who think they know everything even though they know bull, yes call me arrogant, but I do know that they HMG rush is a important issue for the whole clanbalance of NS, and I do know that it's way to powerful. yeah yeah yeah, you think I suck and believe that im a noob. Dont judge me before you have seen a good clan perform this devastating strat, and how many of you have done that?
FACT: Crappy SENS chambers wont work, Crappy movement chambers wont work, FACT there is no way to counter this strat save pure luck. If you dont agree you are wrong = FACT
= DEVs have to do something about the HMG rush.
I would like to see a change to the upgrades marines get, if an alien distroys there armory they still get to buy HMG ect when they build new one but you take out a 2nd hive then BANG goes the fades and upgrades until new hive is built (which will as you know cost another 80 res and take ages to build, where the armory does cost less and takes alot less time to build), So Marines should loose the ability to buy HMG ect and have to build and upgrade to get HMG ect back if there's is distroyed (in my opinion), Ok marines have to upgrade each armory to drop in that location but with PG's it's easy to pop back to spawn pick up HMG PG back to last location.
Hope that makes sence as I am tired, been doing me santa bit for the kids :-)
DaDDeh
I think Flay deserves that much. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->