Teach Me

sekdar · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">what am i doing wrong?</div> i've been playing kharaa nonstop since the day i got a hold of this game (1.01) and have a pretty solid grip of how to win in most situations. I most frequently played Cel/Regen fade that blinked around and sliced up marines. After a while i got tired of winning 95% of the time and switched over to marines to give that a shot.

It's pretty eye-opening to see just how powerful fades are when you've played as one for so long and suddenly play <i>against</i> one. Now, i'm not going to complain and whine "IMBALANCE! FIX!" or anything like that. I want your personal opinions:

What am i doing wrong when i empty my entire LMG clip into a fade point blank, switch to my pistol, empty that into him point blank, switch back to LMG, reload while hopping like a bunny on speed, empty the second clip into him, then die? I've played first person shooters for almost my entire life and i sure as hell know how to aim. What am i doing wrong here?

When fades come to harass my base with acid rockets, and retreat to heal, i charge them. <b>Every</b> single time, i will suicide myself to kill that fade. Every once in a while, about 20% of the time, i get lucky and kill the fade. The other 80% of the time, the fade retreats (faster than a marine can move) and spams more acid rockets at me. I've tried bouncing off the walls jumping, tried crouching, tried strafing left and right, tried every dodging move in the book. I die. In the Cargo Bay Foyer on ns_nothing, there is <b>no</b> room to dodge acid rockets. The fade simply has to point <i>in your general direction</i> and half your team dies. What am i doing wrong here?

When i am locking down a hive with four teammates, and a single fade walks in and annihilates ALL of us in seconds, i really lose it. When the fade's blood spatters the walls from five LMGs focus fired on a single target, why do we all die to acid rockets?

Then, people say "you shouldn't be fighting fades in spawn, get HA/HMG, me and a teammate suit up and both die to ONE fade. With an HMG you have NO HOPE of dodging anything the fade fires at you, and his huge speed advantage coupled with splash let him fire from safety while you are helpless to do anything except waste your precious resources by dying with expensive equipment. Don't even get me started about the alien flanking ability against a slow HA/HMGer

This annoys me to no end. I don't give up, i <b>never</b> concede the game the second we see a fade. But i'm doing something seriously wrong here if i'm seeing no improvement in my fade-killing ability after weeks of constant playing. And even if i do kill a fade, the time it took me to do that is more than enough time for him to get the next 44 resources.

If you're going to respond here, use constructive criticism. I <b>already know</b> i suck and you are l33t and you own me. And please, dont tell me your rambo tales of pure luck against stupid fades. I only pub on clan servers and therefore have to fight fades with greater-than-room-temperature IQ, <b>not</b> the MINDLESS adren/acid spammers you find on pubs that suck at everything other than spamming rockets.

I've followed EVERY piece of advice in this thread <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=15451' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=20&t=15451</a> to no avail. Kindly do not point me straight back at that thread.

Since i know it's going to happen anyway, flame away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

edit: just did some math. a level 3 carapaced fade is 200/150... since l3 cara absorbs 60% damage (half that disappears), with 40% going to health, a fade should lose 4 hp and 3 armor from 1 bullet.... according to that, health and armor should run out at the same time after 50 lmg bullets... but i know for a fact as a fade that my armor ALWAYS runs out a long time before my health does. How does this work?

Canadianmonk3y · December 2002

The only explanation I can give is that your aim must be bad or something.
Regen fades are a joke to kill, but carapaced ones are MUCH harder. Most people have the sense to go carapace now, so it is a hell of a lot harder to kill fades. Even then, the marines should have HMG/HA by the time aliens get fades, while a la/lmg marine is not supposed to beat a fade. If marines lose their HA and HMG to fades, then I conclude that people just do not know how to weld. Sure you cannot kill the fade outright most of the time, but you can keep making them retreat. The shredding power of the HMG is amazing. Shooting a fade for even a short time gets them hurt enough to force them to go heal. While they are healing, you start killing alien structures/hives. HA and HMG should always beat fades, and if handled properly, do.

ShuflY · December 2002

I can't say you are doing very much wrong, it sounds like you have the right ideas down... For one, fades can be hard to deal with, even if you have mad skills, if you don't have any of your upgrades yet. If fades are out before an Arms Lab is up, you are going to be hurting. The fades that get Carapace are hard to take down, and it will usually take some teamwork, or some serious mistakes on the fade's part.

Whenever my friends and I go fade hunting, I picture that scene in Starship Troopers, when they go to the second planet after it had been carpet bombed, and now know how to deal with the bugs. The particular scene is when there are 5-6 marines gunning down a single bug, moving closer as he is forced back. If you are the only one on your team who is willing to get in a fight with a fade, then maybe you should play alien next round... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

The situation where you and 4 other marines died to a single fade, that is just shameful. From what it sound like, you were probably the only one in the group that actually tried to do anything. The sad truth is, most marines in pub games are cowards when it comes to fades, and it will be that way for some time. Most marine teams that lose when aliens get 2nd hive are just too afriaid to keep fighting, and sit in the base asking for weapons/armor. When there are more players like you, pub games will get much more interesting.

Again, I don't know what to tell you, it sounds like you are pretty knowledgeable about fighting fades, I can't figure out why you are not owning more... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

FlatlineUTD · December 2002

Fades are the aliens' mid-game unit - if you try and combat them with early-game weapons, you're toast. You need an upgrade or two and maybe a prototype lab if you want to deal with them sucessfully.

Try experimenting with various weapon/equipment combinations. You seem to know what you're doing, and you've tried to compensate for it.

I personally like the shotgun/jetpack combination. It takes a while to get used to, but it's great for flanking Fades. When they're low on health, outflank them while someone else charges them.

The HMG/HA combination is pretty popular, especially with 1 or 2 armor upgrades and a welder. I don't like not having any mobility though. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'>

Just mess around - you say you're aiming well, so just try getting some heavier weapons.

BlueGhost · December 2002

Get HA/HMG then put ONE guy in that group with HA/Shottie.

Unless the fades get an ambush where you are charging them down a long corridor full of Offence chambers and cannot retreat (like the lift near powerplant on ns_nothing) you'll absolutly mash them, basically the HA/HMG guys pound the fade, the shot gun guy hurts it aswell whlie charging at it then when the fade runs unless he's a god of blinking he'll get mangled up by the shotgun. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

The ultimate HA team is probably going to end up as HA/HMG x 2+ HA/SG x 1 HA/GL x 1. Everyone should have a wealder as its easier to kill skulks with a wealder than a pistol <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

If you have two guys with shotgun the GL guy costs only 3 res more than if you'd had everyone in HMGs <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

BlueGhost

sekdar · December 2002

heavier weapons = slower player = death to splash damage from around-the-corner shots <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

i do appreciate the input tho. most of the time i'm 3/3 or at least have a few random upgrades.

and yes, i like jetpack/shotty but very few maps have big rooms to take advantage of its flight power to a large extent, and its hard to get them out of even a better-than-average commander.

i'll keep trying, but killing a fade is like an itch that you cant scratch <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> close, but just out of my reach, heh

BlueGhost · December 2002

Sekdar tbh every method to kill a fade that isn't 'ambush it at 0 range with a HMG' envolves team work, a good fade player will not go down to any other tactic UNLESS you have multiple people.

BlueGhost

dmn · December 2002

I feel ya sek...I've also had the experience of unloading everything ive got @ a fade point blank (btw!) and still not kill it. (it was a n00b fade wacking down an armory w/ claws, while i got up to it landed all 50 rounds of lmg all 10 rounds of pistol and had 2 swings of my knife!).

I do agree that regen is total crap on a fade unless you like to hide in vents and shoot lmg armed marines. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

On killing fades: as we all know, trying to get into a long-ranged firefight w/ a fade is just complete suicide, and as discussed elsewhere on this forum the only way to kill it is to be aggresive and rush. Seeing as how a fade CAN run faster than a marine, I've seen the following things happen:

1) marines rush fade
2) fade retreats moving in reverse
3) marines pursue down tight corridor (cuz all ns maps have this)
4) fade shoots his crap @ you and splash kills all marines while tight corridor causes MOST
marine bullets to hit your allies head and **obscenity**.

or stupid fade w/ celerity w/ car. 3 runs in and cuts you all down w/ claws. yay!

The only time i've had real success killing a (single) fade, is when there are like 3+ marines in an OPEN area...(ie. I've done it in mess hall w/ 3 marines while it focused on the other marines i ran up to it and gave it a shotgun up the @##) MMmm.....shotgun.

Anyways, yes we all know how you should have tech to combat fades.....but this thread is about what sek is doing wrong w/ AN LMG.....so telling me i should have tech is just off topic <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> So to you Sek.....you're doing nothing wrong and you sound pretty skilled too...fade just strong... damn splash dam...

ImaNewbie · December 2002

there's nothing wrong with the way you play.

my guess as to why the fades are so hard to kill is probably due to lack of weapon upgrades.

Sirus · December 2002

All i can say is that when you unload not everything is hitting, obviously or else it would be 500+ dmg. My suggestion is that you hide beside a door so that anyone entering it cant see you, wait for the fade and when it comes through unload into its back while you chase it down. This will catch it offguard and you most surely will kill it, but u have to make sure you have very little distance between. Anyways, this is the only way ive ever killed a fade with a lmg without luck. The whole strafing thing hardly works for me since AR does so much splash dmg, its difficult to kill a fade without surprising it completely.

PeregineDive · December 2002

Mid-game is hard enough. sometimes marines will be hard pressed for resources, and we'll go in with respawn weps... without coordinated team work, and I find that happening a lot in pubs(sarcasm *hint* *hint*), fades are hard to go down. Sirus, your idea works like a charm if you can suprise them from beind, I enjoy shotgunning them from behind at point blank while they go for the decoy <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> makes a cool noise

-PD

sillY · December 2002

you need to work with other marines to kill a fade with LMGs/pistols. you are not going to do it by yourself, no matter how good your aim is.

Okabore · December 2002

It _is_ possible to take out fades with unupgraded la/lmg. I did it last night. The trick is to hide and wait for him to fire all his rockets. Charging him at this point is makes life a bit longer. Be ready to start circle strafe him once you get close enough or he will tear you to shreds.
I have by using this method managed to take out fades with 1 clip of lmg ammo and 1 clip of pistol ammo. You wont get time to reload so you better make the bullets count.
Important thing is to be close by when his out of energy. If you try to rush him from the other side of the base you'll face a rocket coming your way by the time you get there.
This method does of course not work all the time. I died heaps of times while performing it but marines are cheap and spawn fast, fades isn't and don't.
An other problem is that you allow equipment get damaged while waiting for him to unload. I think that it is worth it though. Equipment can be welded in time for the next wave if you force the fade to respawn.

Kid-A · December 2002

As has been said <b>your</b> not doing anything wrong its your teammates. After you've emptied your clip and pistol then died there should be someone behind you ready to take care of whats left, but what happens time and time again on pubs is they let the fade retreat and get back the a def chamber.

In a fade rush I have found time to reload the LMG so sometimes in can be worth it. You can usually take them down with a second clip.

Also although your tactics seem to fail as the fades don't get killed it does have some benefits:
1 - Alot of alien players will become alot more cautious if you almost kill them.
2 - The recovery of the fade can take a long time which is the same as the main benefit you get from killing one.
3 - The 20% you kill one feels good!
4 - It feels good to be taking some action.

Tazol · December 2002

I'll tell you right now, the best way to kill a fade naked(with just LMG and LA), is to hope your commander was smart enough to get gun upgrades. If you have second gun upgrades, a full clip of a pistol does 240, and a LMG does 600 a clip. If you make every bullet count(which is nearly impossible, but if the fade is attacking somewhere else, get up in his back and empty a full clip of your pistol, switch to LMG and crouch. Sometimes they won't notice you and turn to run while you should be emptying your LMG into their stomach(aim up while crouched), and when they notice you, start bunny-hopping everywhere, while strafing. I guarantee you will kill it. Even level 3 carapace.)

However, with HA/HMG, this is a little harder. Use small corridors for one, and try to make use of dead-ends. Example, the Generator Room in ns_nothing. If the Fades attack from the elevator that leads to the right-side of Viaduct. Usually Fades will blink to the top of the elevator, acid rocket the Gen room, and retreat down the elevator. Use this against them. Where can they go if the elevator is up? I've done this countless times, and you'll never laugh so hard in your life. To see that Fade panic with little health, face to face with a HA/HMG marine.. it's classic. You can TASTE the fear. This is how to execute it.. time their shots while hiding behind the wall. When you see the first acid rocekt be shot, stand up, and wait for the other three, then rush. Try to circle-strafe him, don't worry about nailing him yet.. get that elevator up first. Now if your teammates aren't stupid, they'll help while you hit that switch. Result? Dead fade. (You can also do this with LMG/LA marine, but you require a second naked marine and full gun upgrades.)

Sorry if that's a little long, but hey.. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Archzai · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Dec 18 2002, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>All i can say is that when you unload not everything is hitting, obviously or else it would be 500+ dmg. My suggestion is that you hide beside a door so that anyone entering it cant see you, wait for the fade and when it comes through unload into its back while you chase it down. This will catch it offguard and you most surely will kill it, but u have to make sure you have very little distance between. Anyways, this is the only way ive ever killed a fade with a lmg without luck. The whole strafing thing hardly works for me since AR does so much splash dmg, its difficult to kill a fade without surprising it completely.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
o puleeze...

all that math and calculation of bullets is BS....
trust me.. i know....
my aim is near perfect with the LMG... emptying two clips and 1 pistol clip.. and the guy still doesn't die... and dun say my aiming blows either.. the recoil of the LMG is so much easier to control then an AK in CS.... and as i said in another post.... CS is harder in the areas of AIMING... like longrange rifles... seriously...

i don't think math can be used... it simply isn't equaling rite...
and yes sekdar i feel your pain.... -.- .. i can never quite seem to get those damn fades unless i charge with a HMG.. which works <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> haha

Error404 · December 2002

Yeah, I'm from Counterstrike skool too. I remember the first time I played Marines, and I automatically tried to HEADSHOT everything!... even Onos, thinking back to it makes me laugh. Also running while shooting and having your aim stay true was a first for me, took me a while to get used to.

I think when it comes to fades, its best to shoot at their chest area-stomach area, rather than their head. The hit boxes are a bit iffy, especially when the fade is ducked. Takes a bit of getting used to. One things for certain, it definitely messes up your Counterstrike skills, but what the heck, its more fun being accurate while moving and jumping to get away from a skulk, a skill in itself requiring fast reactions and lightning timing.

Tazol · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Archzai @ Dec 18 2002, 06:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Dec 18 2002, 12:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>All i can say is that when you unload not everything is hitting, obviously or else it would be 500+ dmg. My suggestion is that you hide beside a door so that anyone entering it cant see you, wait for the fade and when it comes through unload into its back while you chase it down. This will catch it offguard and you most surely will kill it, but u have to make sure you have very little distance between. Anyways, this is the only way ive ever killed a fade with a lmg without luck. The whole strafing thing hardly works for me since AR does so much splash dmg, its difficult to kill a fade without surprising it completely.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
o puleeze...

all that math and calculation of bullets is BS....
trust me.. i know....
my aim is near perfect with the LMG... emptying two clips and 1 pistol clip.. and the guy still doesn't die... and dun say my aiming blows either.. the recoil of the LMG is so much easier to control then an AK in CS.... and as i said in another post.... CS is harder in the areas of AIMING... like longrange rifles... seriously...

i don't think math can be used... it simply isn't equaling rite...
and yes sekdar i feel your pain.... -.- .. i can never quite seem to get those damn fades unless i charge with a HMG.. which works <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> haha</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Play against a bot. They make every shot hit you.. you'd see how fast you die to two marines(with impeccable aiming, like you said yourself, pfft)

sekdar · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tazol @ Dec 18 2002, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>[QUOTE=Archzai,Dec 18 2002, 06:46 AM
Play against a bot. They make every shot hit you.. you'd see how fast you die to two marines(with impeccable aiming, like you said yourself, pfft)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
heh, i've done that. its pretty amazing.

Narfwak · December 2002

I do the same thing as Flat - outflank and outmaneuver with jetpack and shotgun. Most players don't expect to get charged by a shotty toting marine, especially when they are big scary fades. It does take a good few hits to kill them, but it can be done. The jetpack helps more than anything, as dodging the acid rockets is a piece of cake when you can soar through the air with the greatest of ease.

Also try to avoid tight spaces. Fades murder marines in tight spaces. The splash damage really does hurt.

Get some rabbits' feet and four leaf clovers, and possibly a leprechaun. Trust me, luck never hurts when fighting fades.

And lastly, I think this probably is the fault of your teammates. If they don't have the sense to charge out blindly and die alongside you (possibly or even likely getting the fade killed), then you should just find a better server.

Trevelyan_006 · December 2002

all fades have to do is run backwards throwing acid rockets to beat any marine rush.

Circle strafe you say? where?

you say stay out of tight corridors and small rooms... So i should just exit the game and start playing a different mod? cause thats about every area.

Archzai · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tazol @ Dec 18 2002, 09:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Play against a bot. They make every shot hit you.. you'd see how fast you die to two marines(with impeccable aiming, like you said yourself, pfft)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
HAHAH omg.. u really think so? that if i played two bots... with LMGs... theyd own me... a single fade??

rofl.. u gotta be kidding..
A) i played with bots... cuz my internet was shutoff due to studying
B) i owned two Marines with lmg.. haha..

don't assume if u don't know anything...

o... and no... it doesn't screw up your aim for CS by playing NS.. and yes the math is messed up..... really... u would think it wasn't the aiming that was a problem by now if so many people have the same stories of pummping 2 lmg clips with 1 pistol and knifing a fade before finally dying to it, and yet never killing the fade...... it isn't the players problem... more.... the game problem...

o.. and hitboxes on marines are good... if u acid rocket the head area of a marine it does more damage... a friend told me he tested it out.. so CS skills sorta help <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> hahah

for aliens.. i already DO aim at the stomach and chest........ its jus the bullets aren't doin much damage.. so everyone who "Calculates" all the dmg.. is very wrong...

Akfeka · December 2002

All I can say is ambush and try to attack when they are low on adrenaline.

That said, I think there is a problem with hitboxes. I play both sides pretty equally, and I cannot tell you the number of times I've suddenly died as a fade. Just the other day I went from 50-60% health to dead in about a second and a half, from no more than 2 marines with LMGs.

Based on the reported crouching problems with hitboxes, I'd guess that your main problem is bugs - you think you are hitting, you should be hitting, but you are not.

A friend of mine is pretty good at taking out fades with lmgs/shotties, so I'll ask him what he does...

Teach Me

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