Initial Rush Considered Harmful

matso

<div class="IPBDescription">Why take the chance?</div> Frankly, the only time an initial skulk rush works is if the marines suck - and suck badly. So if you succeed with the initial rush, you get a 2 minute win rather than a 20 minute win. Apart from bragging rights, not much difference.

And the risk with the initial rush is huge, especially if you are talking about 7v7 servers or bigger. Imagine a 6 skulk rush vs 6 marines .. 2 marines die to six skulks. The marines are back after 20 seconds, while the skulks will take two minutes before they are all back. In the meantime, you have 4 good marines and just a single gorge on the whole map ... pretty good odds a couple of them will run out and find the gorge and kill it, while a few others rush to other undefended spots, plop down res towers and build without there being a single skulk in place to ambush them.

So, IMO, rushing is a lose-lose proposition - you either cut a won game short, or you take a big hit to your chances to win.

taboofires

If the skulks don't do anything but kill a marine or two, you're absolutely right. That rarely happens in the pubs, but if you 1) suck or 2) are fighting really organized marines it's definately possible.

As for the benefits, a smart rush (ie killing marines while they're building, or getting ammo, or whatnot) can get at least most of the marines, eat a structure or so, or at least put a delay in allowing the marines to exit the base. The longer the kharaa can keep the marines in the base the better.

In small games (like 4 on 4 or so) the spawn lag isn't bad at all, so die all you want.

In large games when you expect a rush will be useless, it's often better to just mill about outside the marine base and eat anyone who leaves. In general, this is probably the best strategy. Surprised marines are dead marines, and then you can slip into the base if you want while they respawn.

But if you just let the marines do whatever they want for the first five minutes, you'll likely lose. It's just like what happens when no one bothers to stop Kharaa expansion. Steamroller...

littlewild

Not really. Because by the time you rush the marines, they would have just finished build the 2 infantry portals. Then the skulks arrive. Even if all your rushing skulks died, the commander will still build the armoury and the marine will still have to load up their guns. Some commanders might even build the compulsory turrect factory and turrects to protect the base.

It takes a while for the marine to become organized. The disadvantage is not so great as you expect and it is well worth its risk.

TheGunslinger

The initial skulk rush can be as thoughtless as you try to make it. Note that most of the best players (that I know) do not attack to kill, but attack to weaken.

Every time I go into their base I take a different path and monitor their progress. This allows me to see their attempts to expand and squash them.

My initial skulk rushing is not ment to smack down the marines, just pevent them from getting their feet in the first place. ><!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

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"... Considered Harmful." You a fellow computing scientist? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Hellbilly

The constant skulk rushing is meant to handicap the marines and keep them from expanding while the happy gorge whistles, capping most of the res nodes and building the second hive.

I have often played games where we have given the marines such a hard time, that by the time they finally managed to secured the res node closest to their base, we have 2 hives up and Fades evolving. Game over......

Zevensoft

Another good thing to do is a 'Parasite Rush'. Just run in, parasite as many as possible, and run back to hive for automatic healing <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. This will allow you to see where the marines are headed.

bigbadbunny

badly the most skuls dont parasit the marines , would be a great help for the gorgs
and one skul outside the base can parasite up to 2 people , which confuses them really <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

Error404

Yeah rush rush rush!! I live to rush as a skulk, otherwise what else would I do? Theres also hanging outside the marine base and making them too scared to leave.

If skulks don't do their duty by dying, it means slower resource point accumulation for the gorge.

Insidious

When dead, you arn't given your share of the resources, so a skulk rush is a way to get the money flowing faster without using any exploites. But the main reasons to rush are fourfold - to keep the marines on the defensive (the more money they have to spend defending, the less they have to spend attacking), to knock down an early structure or two (resources are tight in the beginning, and the effect of each action snowballs as the game progresses, so the earlier you hurt them, the better), to parasite (this one doesn't get done as much as it should), and to feel out the enemy (if you slaughter, or are slaughtered, you know what you're up against).

Having said all this, it does have its downsides. It hurts morale if you all die, which you probably will. And while your gorge may be rolling in dough if the 7/8 players die, he's also undefended.

I don't expect this sort of thing on pubs, but I think the best start would be for all the skulks to form up outside the base, half rush, half camp the exits, if the rush goes resonably well, send the rest, if not, stay back, stay quiet, and ambush and/or parasite (a personal favorite variation on this is to have one skulk pop in a door, parasite and run out, while a teammate waits over the door to nail any marines that follow... if none do, worry, you're playing a good team).

TheGunslinger

Be careful when parasiting marines at the start. It encourages them to run off and get killed, but sometimes they find a resource node instead of a skulk. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->

Parasite

A parasited Marine should <i>be found</i> by a skulk...If your team gives an isolated yellow blob the 30 or so seconds to build a res tower, you can pretty much trace your loss back to that point and the fact that your team really sucks.


I see a skulk rush as having many benifits...
1.) you can see what kind of team play they have...if after 30 seconds 1/2 thier team has run off leaving very few to build...you know your likely up against abunch of Rambos.
2.) Find the layout of important structures...the marines should still be fortifying thier base for the first couple rushes giving a pretty clear indication of what thier base will look like during the endgame rush.
3.) weaken thier economy by putting them on the offensive in thier base and preventing expansion. and hopefully destroying a few structures etc.
4.) feel out the individual players early on. If one particular marine is doing an exellent job of thwarting the skulk rush, he is likely to get goodies from the commander throught the game, and should be a kill priority in many situations.

matso

Well, with 2-3 good marines on the enemy team, most rushing will be stopped STONE DEAD - no buildings damage, no dead marines ... just dead skulks.

The, an agressive commander just sends a couple of marines to your undefended hive, where they stand below the hive and picks off the skulks as they spawn, perhaps building a phasegate to let the rest of the marines in.

Granted, against sucky marines, rushing will work. But so will not rushing. So why take the risk?

TheGunslinger

Ahem. Sorry, I ment resource <b>chamber</b>. Parasited marines have nothing to lose and don't care about making noise in the hive mind. If they wander into your undefended hive, you are at risk of losing your node.

Deacon

I've said this before, but you know, I enjoy repeating myself.

The skulk rush is necessary for lots of reaons:

1. Because the alternative is to stand around and do nothing. Skulks can't build. There's no point in scouting when the marines are all bunched up in their spawn. So you either camp outside the marine base and wait for them to finish tidying up, or you rush in.

2. The marines have siege cannons. Sieges mean the marines can mass-clear alien defenses. This means that, all other things being equal, the marines will win a war of attrition. Because the marines can clear (and supress) alien defenses faster than the aliens can clear marine defenses.

3. Aliens have two empty hives. Humans need to take one of them to have a fighting chance. The aliens can either split their defenses between the spawn hive and both empty hives, or concentrate everyone on the one known marine location. Do the math.

BlueGhost

Funny story from today, I was parasited as marine on nancy. I thought 'hmm sod it com's not giving me orders everyone else is run off there's a few turrets I'll go rambo and lose this parasite.

I managed to walk through messhall into the room outside un-named hive (mother hive?) into the vent towards Engine Hive up the vent crawl along the vent, into the hive room round the corner and killed 1 gorge saving for res and his skulk escort as they sat perfectly still looking stupid directly under the hive.

Beggers belief they didn't bother a) hiding or b) spotting a big yellow blob walking at them.

BlueGhost

Wasted

Mmm... I think aliens should <i>always</i> rush. But not necessarily at the marine base. As already mentioned, one can test the mettle of the marine team you're up against with a tentative first strike, and if they're obviously good then it wouldn't make sense sending the entire skulk force in to be shot to bits.

But one shouldn't <i>not</i> rush to get at least near the marine spawn and instead sit around hiding in some dark corner waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting marine, like a lot of alien players do on the pub servers I usually play on. If one can't rush the base because they're alert and on the defence, then prepare to ambush them as they attempt to move out.

Marines are strongest as a team and when they've taken up defensive positions. No matter how good a skulk you are, even with celerity you can't make it to a marine aiming down a corridor knowing you'd try. But they're therefore weakest when they're moving from point to point or when they're occupied with building or reloading. That's when a sneaky drop from the ceiling or pounce from out of a vent will wreak the most havoc.

Aah. But you wouldn't know when they're moving, building or reloading if you're not near enough to see or hear them, right? And the only way to get close enough is to rush, rush, rush. Right from the start, all the time.

Chomp chomp chomp, hur hur hur hur.

ogz

Some maps like sewer vent in caged and vent in bast are good to rush, but other maps like hera/tanith/even eclipse, kinda sux for rushing <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

Nupi

Actually the 'problem' today is that marines are expecting the initial rush almost on every game. I think what we should do is rush & destroy their resource towers instead together all the time, they are pretty much stuck when they dont have resources to use on equipment.

Rushing to base gives about 1minutes of breathing time but costs no RP.
Rushing & destroying RT's gives us time & cost nice amount of RPs plus probably weakens the team morale and sort of affects on the commander too.

I guess the marines would be thinking "they arent coming??" ..kinda dazzled why dont we rush their base <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.