Charge Bounceback Hurts Onos

MeredithMeredith Join Date: 2018-10-26 Member: 244350Members Posts: 3 Fully active user
Much appreciation to Steelcap for his work implementing Onos charge in update 316. It is fun to push marines. However, my experience with Onos before and after this change is contrasted starkly and the fun quickly turns into 62 res worth of pain. If I could respectfully offer some input on charge bounceback?

Problem:
Onos charge bounceback is in no way beneficial to Onos gameplay.

Why #1:
Marines take little damage from charge and greatly benefit from being pushed out of gore range.

Why #2:
Onos have to chase down marine targets that were bounced away, reorient aim, and push deeper into marines to gore them. The consequent extra time for marines to do damage without taking significant damage and prolonged, deeper Onos exposure(exposure results in being swarmed by more) produces a web of collective detriments to Onos.

Why #3:
Furthermore, Onos now have to moderate their engagement speed to prevent targets from bouncing away, making them slower, cumbersome, and finicky.

How to fix:
Remove Onos charge bounceback.

Conclusion:
Remove Onos charge bounceback. Onos survivability, damage, and playability is hamstrung because of it.
NintendowsSantaClawsskav2

Comments

  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 794 Advanced user
    Charge knockback was never meant as an offensive tool, afaik.

    The real benefit comes when you try to bail out from a room full of marines... you just push past them.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    KasharicBeigeAlert
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Meredith wrote: »
    Conclusion:
    Remove Onos charge bounceback. Onos survivability, damage, and playability is hamstrung because of it.

    You shouldn't be charging into combat, or if you do, you should be stopping before you get to your target, otherwise you are draining your energy... charge has and always was primarily an escape mechanism. Previous, before the pushback, a single marine could block the onos' charge to prevent escape... now? several marines will just be shoved aside as the onos pushes past.

    Onos has been drastically improved by the implementation of the charge push back imo.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 923 Advanced user
    I think Compmod addressed this by reducing the distance the marine would get shoved away. So the onos couldn't be body blocked by marines but marines getting hit by the charge wouldn't fly out of gore range.
    return to zero
  • UmbralpathUmbralpath New Zealand Join Date: 2018-11-29 Member: 244978Members Posts: 1 Freshly registered user
    I agree the knockback is possibly too much, but I actually think charge can be pretty strong as an offensive tool if you use it right. I've used it to knock jetpack marines into walls or corners. It kills all their momentum and can trap them making for an easy kill.
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Forum staff Posts: 1,183 mod
    Kasharic wrote: »
    You shouldn't be charging into combat, or if you do, you should be stopping before you get to your target, otherwise you are draining your energy... charge has and always was primarily an escape mechanism.

    That's rationally what people have in mind when they know they can use a charge ability! Don't charge to attack but charge to escape...

    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."


    Nordic
  • MeredithMeredith Join Date: 2018-10-26 Member: 244350Members Posts: 3 Fully active user
    edited November 30
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Charge knockback was never meant as an offensive tool, afaik.

    The real benefit comes when you try to bail out from a room full of marines... you just push past them.
    Kasharic wrote: »
    You shouldn't be charging into combat, or if you do, you should be stopping before you get to your target, otherwise you are draining your energy... charge has and always was primarily an escape mechanism. Previous, before the pushback, a single marine could block the onos' charge to prevent escape... now? several marines will just be shoved aside as the onos pushes past.

    Onos has been drastically improved by the implementation of the charge push back imo.

    I agree with both posters that it's a great escape mechanism, but I disagree that using charge to primarily escape is good utilization of faster movement speed.

    It's more energy efficient now, so should this not make charging more important when engaging? In my experience and from any onos I've witnessed, disengagement from combat is nearly always because of being massively focused and immediate depletion of health, not because of low energy.

    I am failing to see that moving into engagements more slowly is advantageous, that pushing targets out of attack range is of much benefit overall, or that it's all worthwhile to push people when the rare, suicidal scenario of directly charging into a grouping of marines for escape happens.


  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 794 Advanced user
    edited November 30
    It's not only about what is advantageous FOR the onos... it's also about balancing the fights.

    Now imagine you're on the marine side with a JP and a big fat cow basically appears out of nowhere (hyperbole!), knocks you out of the air, kills you with 3 gore hits, then manages to escape through a squad of marines because of knockback.

    Carefully choosing when and how to engage as an onos is part of the skillset (as with any other lifeform), you don't need a quasi-stomp ability while charging....

    Meredith wrote: »
    It's more energy efficient now, so should this not make charging more important when engaging? In my experience and from any onos I've witnessed, disengagement from combat is nearly always because of being massively focused and immediate depletion of health, not because of low energy.

    Exactly. You're not constrained by energy (usually) when you escape with charge, nor are you constrained by blocking marines.
    If you are aware and realize you're gonna be overwhelmed, you can EASILY escape the situation by knocking the marines aside, and that is the situation what this tool was designed to solve... (afaik)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 163 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    I think Compmod addressed this by reducing the distance the marine would get shoved away. So the onos couldn't be body blocked by marines but marines getting hit by the charge wouldn't fly out of gore range.

    Sounds like a solid fix to me.
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 315 Advanced user
    NS2 has a great need for a huge number of fixes, but when it comes to charge,nNo fix is needed. I use and abuse the knockback to pin marines against walls. Could you post a video of how this mechanic is hurting your gameplay?
    .trixX.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 252 Advanced user
    edited November 30
    Current Charge + Knockback Functionality:
    -Upside: Current onos charge knockback range has general defensive utility in that the knockback is sufficient to clear a path for the onos to escape.
    -Upside: Current onos charge knockback range has very situational offensive utility when used to push marines into low-manueverability areas (e.g. into a corner or up against a wall).
    -Downside: Current onos charge knockback imposes slight offensive risk when used to directly confront marines in open areas due to knockback sending marines out of melee range.

    Downside Mitigation:
    -Begin tapering onos speed down to normal speed when the player lets go of the charge key (rather than just going from fullspeed charge to normal runspeed in what feels like a single instant).
    -Suggested speed tapering window: anywhere from .75 seconds to 1 second.

    Result:
    -Holding charge down would increase your speed and more or less lock you into your trajectory, the way it does now.
    -After letting go of the charge key, you will no longer knock marines back.
    -The key difference is that you'd enjoy the speed boost for longer after letting go.
    -Additionally: after letting go you'd have full control again, even while the speed is still tapering down.
    -This will allow the onos to stop charging earlier (avoiding unwanted knockbacks) while receiving a useful residual speed benefit. Closing the melee gap should be trivial in this case, and the onos should feel more maneuverable overall (e.g. this will also make charge feel better as the onos is rounding corners).
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    NS2 has a great need for a huge number of fixes, but when it comes to charge,nNo fix is needed. I use and abuse the knockback to pin marines against walls. Could you post a video of how this mechanic is hurting your gameplay?

    When you're trying to win a fight with vampirism and you accidentally knock back a marine you miss both the sustain and they keep their damage dealing potential because that marine is now alive and still damaging you.
    mattji104
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 794 Advanced user
    @Frozen by that logic, high movement speed of marines is hurting my crappy fade play.... :P
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    @.trixX. It's really not the same logic lol
    mattji104
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