Turn off the hive for a week and see what happens!

jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
edited September 25 in NS2 General Discussion
My suggestion is this. Smurfs and elochasers might not rejoice? But might be an interesting experiment? NS1 had nothing like hive skill. And these days we have ELOchasers and smurfs. Maybe "randomise the rr" works better. Then it would be true natural selection as a concept...
VetinariNordicMoFo1.trixX.Handschuh
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Comments

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,442 Advanced user
    We used to have this. It was worse. People just forgot.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    BlrgNordicSupaFredskav2
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    But if it is not working as intended, why not?
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    What server is it that you play on?
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    edited September 25
    TTO and GS:and it is a "well known fact" that hive skill wont work witha smaller player base. Where do you play?
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,078 Advanced user
    edited September 25
    By hive skill, do you mean elo? Either way I don't think that's a fact.

    Matchmaking, probably doesn't work in small player bases. But the ELO system is pretty accurate even in small playerbases.
    Nordic
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    I usually play on the servers I administer, but I sometimes visit sudamerica as well. Hive seems to work ok but needs a commander offset and team offset.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,209 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    TTO and GS:and it is a "well known fact" that hive skill wont work witha smaller player base. Where do you play?

    wut
    FoxyVetinari
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    I remember randomize ready room would group literally all of the best players in the server onto one team quite often.


    Shuffle may have a number of problems (smurfs and elo chasers being only two of them) but it's infinitely better than randomize ready room...
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    moultano wrote: »
    jrgn wrote: »
    TTO and GS:and it is a "well known fact" that hive skill wont work witha smaller player base. Where do you play?

    wut
    Note the citationmarks? ;) "By other problems" i refer to the distribution of skill between teams.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    We used to have this. It was worse. People just forgot.

    This x99
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    jrgnskav2
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    Reset hive skill ELO etc to stop baka gaijins like that guy with 3 letters pretending they're actually any good and a few others who cheated the system, Also those guys who stream for fun stream with 2 -3 mates and abuse commanding by not medpacking or supporting anyone who isn't there mate but who also elo ride on eacheother. Also to get a better dataset the second time round, remove all rookies from the dataset, whilist including smurfs, i played with 5 fps for a year or two and have a crappy hive score :) and totally wouldn't care if the system worked well for choosing team shuffle, it almost always locks me into a team with rookies because of that.

    I actually stopped playing NS a few days ago because of the hive skill and rubbish shuffles not including playing with a community that doesn't eject trash commanders and then complain later on but still do nothing...

    I admit i get highly frustrated that i am almost always on top of the score board regardless of the server and having greens on my team leading me to never be able to gain any more hive skill points because somehow to balance it out you need to stack a sanji with blues and no greens, i swear...
    thinking about the dumbfuckry of argumentation from both sides that comes out of these forums is absolutely laughable at times.

    I would like to request @Squeal_Like_A_Pig or someone from the UWE original development team to please help implement skill progression system including an updated alternative hive system as a means to save the game from a horrible death, now is probably a good time just to even lend a hand with one developer from Subnautica, that would be awesome. @Flayra @Max @dushan I promise that this is probably one of the prime times to do this as it's not looking healthy.
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • AmarHanosciaAmarHanoscia Stuck in Mezza Join Date: 2014-03-09 Member: 194609Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver Posts: 17 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    "...that guy with 3 letters..." LOL i lost it there for a moment...

    But on the serious note: how do you propose to do that (I mean the alternative hive)? Apart from introducing separate hive skill for marines and aliens which, I believe, is already being worked on.

    NS2 was always about some sh*tty rounds, and tbh with the last updates I see (and take part in) a surprisingly large number of really good rounds. Besides ppl have eyes and brains, and when they notice a particularly bad shuffle, they can always vote for another one. Resetting skills is likely to introduce more chaos and discourage many ppl from playing (this is ofc my opinion, maybe i'm wrong, but many ppl are fighting now for a higher tier badge and might take it as a slap in their face).

    I also desperately want the game to live and develop, but maybe the best way to act is to show some support to the devs, esp. with their new roadmap...
    Post edited by AmarHanoscia on
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 795 Advanced user
    jrgn wrote: »
    My suggestion is this. Smurfs and elochasers might not rejoice? But might be an interesting experiment? NS1 had nothing like hive skill. And these days we have ELOchasers and smurfs. Maybe "randomise the rr" works better. Then it would be true natural selection as a concept...

    "Mathematical random" is not "human random" :P
    If you flip coins enough times, you are bound to have a very long-long series of the same side. 20 heads in a row is not considered random by humans, but it actually is.
    The same is true for Randomize RR, you have basically the same chance to get a stack vs a balanced round.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Besides ppl have eyes and brains, and when they notice a particularly bad shuffle, they can always vote for another one.

    Except people vote for a shuffle again when it's not needed (4 point difference in team skill, 1759 - 1755) and won't shuffle again when it's needed (500+ point difference)

    It's super super annoying to have the first shuffle give you perfectly balanced teams AND you actually get the team you want (and is the only reason you play the game) only to have complete idiots call for another shuffle that not only forces you to the team you hate, but also skews the teams so they're several hundred points (or more) off instead of the 0-50 points they were off the first shuffle.

    In short, people are rarely capable of using their eyes and brains at the same time.
  • AmarHanosciaAmarHanoscia Stuck in Mezza Join Date: 2014-03-09 Member: 194609Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver Posts: 17 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    Oh guys cmon. Coming from Poland, I certainly know how good it is to complain sometimes, but you are easily beginning to beat Poles in this department.

    For me it is obvious that the community of NS2 players consists of observant people who are perfectly able to calculate, as these are skills that are absolutely necessary for even scratching the surface of this game. Which sadly, on the side note, may be the reason why we dont have that many players :disappointed:
    .trixX.MoFo1
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 795 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    It's super super annoying to have the first shuffle give you perfectly balanced teams AND you actually get the team you want (and is the only reason you play the game) only to have complete idiots call for another shuffle that not only forces you to the team you hate, but also skews the teams so they're several hundred points (or more) off instead of the 0-50 points they were off the first shuffle.

    Just as you have a preferred team, others do too, and when they get shuffled to the other side they are not happy either. Hence the new shuffles.
    Not to mention when one side has a comm, and after 5 minutes the opposing side is still goofing around in warmup.

    There are multiple reasons for multiple shuffles, and most are not nefarious.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    AmarHanoscia
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Just as you have a preferred team, others do too, and when they get shuffled to the other side they are not happy either. Hence the new shuffles.

    Yes but he's saying people are smart enough to know when a shuffle is or isn't needed, here you're basically admitting that people shuffle for reasons that shuffle is not meant for.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Not to mention when one side has a comm, and after 5 minutes the opposing side is still goofing around in warmup.
    This is solved by someone getting in the chair/hive, or a reset if the game has started.. it is not solved by an unnecessary shuffle... Shuffle does not produce commanders or force commanders into the chair.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    There are multiple reasons for multiple shuffles, and most are not nefarious.

    I'm not saying most of the reasons are nefarious I'm saying they're idiotic. Plus it doesn't help matters that 9/10 times the only reason given is "uneven teams" (even when teams are dead even)


    I'm not trying to complain here, just saying you can't expect intelligence to solve this problem.

    If it could then we wouldn't need shuffle in the first place.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 795 Advanced user
    Well, that depends on your definition of "need" :P
    If you want to be on the other side, you "need" to shuffle, since you cant switch. Same for the comm situation, if no one wants to comm, someone on the other team might...
    But yeah, we are arguing semantics here :D

    As a personal experience on [GS] server, if the teams are obviously imbalanced, people are willing to reshuffle/reset the round even after start.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • AmarHanosciaAmarHanoscia Stuck in Mezza Join Date: 2014-03-09 Member: 194609Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver Posts: 17 Advanced user
    edited September 26
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Yes but he's saying people are smart enough to know when a shuffle is or isn't needed...

    Assuming you are referring to me, I hasten to explain that I simply expressed my strong disbelief in that any automated mechanism can solve all our problems, and my equally strong belief in that ns2 players can use brains and eyes even at the same time :wink:

  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    Perma-bans for the losing team???
    But then we also need mutations, sexual reproduction, phenotypes that changes with the environment etc :smiley: D....I like it already!

  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »

    As a personal experience on [GS] server, if the teams are obviously imbalanced, people are willing to reshuffle/reset the round even after start.
    The reset/shuffle loop is powerful. Do you remember when we reached 20 times in a row before a mapchange saved ours dirty souls...quack! :s


  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,546 mod
    jrgn wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »

    As a personal experience on [GS] server, if the teams are obviously imbalanced, people are willing to reshuffle/reset the round even after start.
    The reset/shuffle loop is powerful. Do you remember when we reached 20 times in a row before a mapchange saved ours dirty souls...quack! :s
    I think it would help to have a second criteria that needs to be met before the game starts. At the moment it's not uncommon for comms to rush to their chairs and inadvertently start the game while half the server is still in the ready room.
    In competitive games, each team has to say in chat that they're "ready" before the game starts. A similar system would probably help reduce the number of false starts in public games.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
    Nordicjrgn
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    Mouse wrote: »
    In competitive games, each team has to say in chat that they're "ready" before the game starts. A similar system would probably help reduce the number of false starts in public games.

    Servers have the option in shine to specifically do that.
    NordicIronHorse
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    In competitive games, each team has to say in chat that they're "ready" before the game starts. A similar system would probably help reduce the number of false starts in public games.

    Servers have the option in shine to specifically do that.

    I find it odd that no server uses these options.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Mouse
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    edited September 27
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    In competitive games, each team has to say in chat that they're "ready" before the game starts. A similar system would probably help reduce the number of false starts in public games.

    Servers have the option in shine to specifically do that.

    I find it odd that no server uses these options.

    Sudamerica does. I also implemented a "Ready" gui button for Rebirth that each commander needs to press.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    In competitive games, each team has to say in chat that they're "ready" before the game starts. A similar system would probably help reduce the number of false starts in public games.

    Servers have the option in shine to specifically do that.

    I find it odd that no server uses these options.

    Sudamerica does. I also implemented a "Ready" gui button for Rebirth that each commander needs to press.

    I am aware of the sudamerica server. I probably play half of my ns2 games there anymore.

    Dmd experimented with auto shuffle and some other settings in the past. I don't know all of the options they tried but they clearly didn't stick with them. Dmd has other wierd things going on so it is hard to know what they are really doing.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    edited September 27
    Maybe shuffle and hide the result from players, then game starts? Then dröppers dröp and we all die :disappointed:
  • FrankerZFrankerZ Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Members Posts: 163 Advanced user
    People with ELO around 0 have really bad winrate because the system wont allow them to go negative so they can find the ELO that allows them to have a 50% winrate. Allow ELO to be negative.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited September 28
    Modrequest: Make a "Alternative shuffle mod" based on Observatory https://observatory.morrolan.ch/leaderboard
    This Site is tracking all the data you need for an real skill based shuffle.
    K/D, Accuracy and hive skill are the most important.

    Based on this you can track cheaters relative easy also:
    https://observatory.morrolan.ch/player/49903
    https://observatory.morrolan.ch/player/94157

    or Smurfs (maybe cheater):
    https://observatory.morrolan.ch/player/55759
    Its easy:Under 50 hrs, over 3000 skill and steam profile private? 95% smurf
    Classic https://observatory.morrolan.ch/player/63283

    Something like this would be close to my good old HBZ shuffle.
    Post edited by dePARA on
    image
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