The problem: indestructable marines herd push in first minutes

borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
edited August 28 in NS2 General Discussion
** Lets talk about this thing, ideas required.


If playing 11v11 with cyan / violet players 5-6 marines just destroy all they see if got 5-6 and highner level.
Lerk of course have a lot of hit points trying it to balance, and then costs 24 to hold this overpowered unit (in comparation with others - lerk like onos allowes to play with small experience more than fade / skulk)
But still teamworked marines is almost indestructable - you need 2-3 gorges with bile (3 biomass, upgrade, gorges) to make marines in herd vulnerable. Basically aliens tactic "awaiting behind corner" is not working if they going in six, only lucky cheese-rush can give you one minute more.
I think the problem is not in marines and not in aliens. The problem is in herds. To destroy herds you need a weapon makes the whole group weaker like gas grenades. If you throw two gas under hive, you got almost 2x effeciency bonus vs herd of aliens.
Aliens got it when stomp (3 hives), spores (2 hives or a lot of resources on 1 hive - 5RT, you already almost win if you got that count and hold it), and bile bomb, who can drop marine armor down and so destroying buildings like nukes.
Aliens haven't long range weapon at first 5 minutes at all. Lerk has spikes, its good to play with marines, but you cant stop 6 running marines push without 3 lerks annihilated herd with 3x spike rain.
3 players must buy 24 + 3 lerk, commander must drop 2-3 spurs and then its possible, otherwise - denied. Commander can spent all res to bile and then got 3 gorges... almost always you haven't time to get bile if marines is pretty good. 3 RT is not enough to get it fast. Spores = impossible.

In Dota some heroes has antipersonel weapon deals high damage from long range, shooting one per 20 sec as example. Bad solution for this intensive game.

If make just gift for aliens like "anti-group" weapon on first minutes, even if it will be commander structures - the marines wont attack at all - he had only one weapon - a damn herd of humans costs 0 resources with 2-3 ips.
I think - need to discuss about herd in game. 5-6 aliens sometimes destroy good armored marines group from 3-4 marines just because 6 more than 4. Same thing another side, 6 marines just going forward and fear nobody.

To nerf herds could be:
- increase RT build time (hold armor1 upgrade caused, possible indestructable cheese with shade hive caused)
- reduced movement speed (cause problems in strategy when recaping died RTs)
- reduced reload time (cause single marine nerf, now won't applicable)
- some experiments with friendly fire (small nerf cause very big problems)
- some flashbangs / nerfers or same thing
- increasing cost of healing / welders (will not influent on first 5 minutes where the problem happens really)
- some armor shields like bone-shield (extra buff...)
- invisible or hard-visible mines (i tried babbler mines, marines destroy it with 10-20 ammo, when going in six - not usuable)
- ... ?

Flashbangs or same looks almost good way. Some weapon to add marine hud effect like commander 1st-tier contamination, but used as long range weapon...

Dropping webs with brood-screen effect?
Babblers upgrade to die it with brood-screen splash?

The problem is no ability to stop that without same count of players until you got very expensive tech

PS. am not about sneaky attacks. If sneaky gives you WIN, you're lucker, no problem. I mean heavy pushes without hiding, just in front.
Post edited by bork on
FrozenRisingSun

Comments

  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    To nerf herds could be:
    - reduced movement speed
    - reduced reload time

    lolno
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • alf_alf_ Join Date: 2018-08-29 Member: 243106Members Posts: 2 Fully active user
    If more than 50% of marines are in one place, in one big "herd", maybe just maybe, don't engage and move around them.
    borkRisingSun
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    it's a team based game, more power if they herd push, gotta get your team to defend and bite back res nodes.
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
    bork
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 29
    Its drug-based game, if you have mega-skill, others can leave, you'll be playing.
    Strategy games usually based on anti-unit stuff.

    * example
    You have heli, that destroy tanks 1 heli vs 3 tanks. And then you have AA destroying heli 1 vs 3 (with win).
    Ns2 is lucky and aim based game, herd based game - no strategy here. If your team is stronger - other team can't even forbid you to go, they just spending their time.

    ==
    Strategy you can see when you got flamethrower and kill tunnel + 8 clogs + 2 offense chambers + RT + 2 skulks.
    It seems like OP because destroying all units. But you have lifeform costs 24 to destroy it and there are not problems.

    Same situation when getting exos. Lerk can damage it, with gorges bile, its almost not a problem. But if everyone welds it, the army going forward. You need some method to stop welding it, and it is only cheese-lucky rush. Its not enough! When getting exos marines becomes twice stronger. Same as aliens having good onos. It just block one side and marine is on way to holding gate strategy.

    Too difficult to distinguish strategy and cannon fodder game style. Strategy means:
    1. hold right locations (ok, its good here)
    2. get right technologies (you see shade - you using scans/armor, see spur - got damage...)
    3. put right technologies in right places where another team haven't counter units (? no ?) - herd its just a big unit you cant to destroy. You can place it everywhere to win, if you team is good.

    No matter how terrible it may sound, steep players should not die because someone was steeper than them, but because they do not have to kill the remedy against them. If there is an LMG that is light, which is free and always is - then there must be a very cheap tool like a armored turret that is not killed by a one-on-one machine, and you need to lead several fighters.

    At the same time, you have the opportunity to take equipment against such cannons and they can not do anything to you. But the usual units for you are deadly.

    Now heavy weapons are deliberately blocked by time, because all weapons have efficiency against everything. Therefore, there are guns weak, there are strong. Strong can not be given from the start. And this instead of each gun was strong against a specific goal, and the herd of people with different weapons was powerless against the herd of people with a particular strength.

    I mean that if you take 2 flamethrowers, 2 grenade launchers and a machine gun, then 3 lerks will dry them into a dry one, because Lerk is a weapon against anything that shoots at close ranges. But in NS2, 3 grenades flashed and all the lerks are left, the crowd goes on

    But spamming heroes is a right way, its working, because there's noway exclude cheese-rush to stop that.
    ==

    If in-game you need to collect indestructable herd - it's telling that no strategy here, just overspam enemies with respawn time.
    You cant order weaker team to wait the respawn and go around (just maybe), it battle fog nobody hear it. It is a racing without finish, you try to learn, but nobody listen and defeat

    Support unit / ability is required to stop pushing and start protecting resources to get technologies. Gorge can it, with bile. But bile extra OP weapons vs building, and required at least 3 biomass level, if change - marines cant protect 1th minute gorge rush.

    On some maps if you going to be cannon fodder, you protect res nodes as additional effect. It brokens strategy at all, you won just using skill. Alone unit currently is so week to nerf this groups, so can't play alone if no aimbot or 4000 hrs. Ok it seems good, but you can compare games on low skill level and on high skill level. Completely differed. On high skill herds smashing both of it dying and reborning 1000 times. On low skill games guys trying to built res, get map control, but alone its impossible and "more stronger" and cheaper lifeforms getting win.

    Good gamers got map control as additional effect, they aren't protecting map, he just pushing as cannon fodder, because noway to stop that!

    Trying to play with this marine herd causes no skulks outside hive. If all skulks outside hive - herd incoming main. You can just sad - hey you, you and you - continue dying, others - go through vent to nodes. In "teamplay-based" game without routes and big icons the brain can't read the command, everybody crying he wants in different languages.

    All complex things causes the problem
    Post edited by bork on
    jrgnRisingSun
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 163 Advanced user
    I think you may be over analyzing this. The problem is this game is not designed to be played over 6v6. Its usually fine until 10v10 and anything higher is just groups of players streaming everywhere ie a Clusterfuck. It grinds my gears when im roaming around the back lines and hit a group of 6 marines and get destroyed as a life form. But thats just how it is in high player count servers.

    Normally this would be only 1-2 players on low player count servers but there are too few of them.

    I agree this is a problem but it is one that no one wants to fix bc most players want huge servers with lots of people. High skilled players get to dominate while low skilled players are able to play the game without people noticing their lack of meaningful input.
    borkRisingSun
  • alf_alf_ Join Date: 2018-08-29 Member: 243106Members Posts: 2 Fully active user
    Marine pressure is nothing new, it can be effective, but having that many people with 0 armour, 0 weapons pushing simultaneously in the same place is a liability for marines.

    If marines are in one big ball of stupidity in location X, you go around and destroy their economy, because those massive marine pushes are fucking expensive, marines can’t sustain them on low res.

    If aliens can’t do that and marines can sustain massive pushes whilst defending their back res, and denying aliens expansion, well frankly the teams are the issue and you would have lost regardless.
    RisingSun
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    All the marines at double res in nano on veil (classic move after the rine com was yelling "every1 to nano")?

    Goto rine base and kill the chair as alien. GG most of time.
    No wall of text needed only a simple counterpush.
    All your "rebalancing" @bork is based on missing game knowledge. Sorry to say that.

    If aliens are using there microphone, calling out the positions of the rines and parasitet them, they coordinate these counter pushes relative easy.
    The more rines at one location point the easier are the counterpushes cause ZERO laning of the rines. So the rine base is WIDE open.

    Do you know what laning is @bork?
    image
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 31
    dePARA wrote: »
    All the marines at double res in nano on veil (classic move after the rine com was yelling "every1 to nano")?

    Goto rine base and kill the chair as alien. GG most of time.
    No wall of text needed only a simple counterpush.
    All your "rebalancing" @bork is based on missing game knowledge. Sorry to say that.

    If aliens are using there microphone, calling out the positions of the rines and parasitet them, they coordinate these counter pushes relative easy.
    The more rines at one location point the easier are the counterpushes cause ZERO laning of the rines. So the rine base is WIDE open.

    Do you know what laning is @bork?

    i sad it immediately after game i see this problem. if the problem was in teamplay i will not post this shit =/

    i see how cyan/violet herd on maint just get half of map and set only one (!!) marine on other dimension (departures), and aliens can't do anything - if at least one lerk leave the hive, push will be moved to main, all the skulks was controlled by one (!!!) violet guy on other direction. We lost 2 RTs in 1 min an try to get at least one spur on 1 RT

    We must control this attack by some way, but without bile we can't. If we got bile faster, marines will die all, because nobody has armor. Every players just no enough time to make 3 (4) bites (1-2armor) where rines are jumping. Its like survival upgrade if marines have teamplay - 300% boost =/ No bile/no win?

    And so, community crying that marines are overpowered. So other guy sad - i played 2000 hrs and am dying where alone. An third one tries to kill lerk one by one like marine shotgun and fucked up a lot of times, because this lifeform forgives mistakes. It means aliens is stronger, but can't defend from big groups getting in front.

    Ok, if main set is 6v6, as in NS1, so most community is playing on 11v11. How do you balancing 6v6 if you have 80% games of 11v11.


    Same problem i see in one older strategy game - Generals. There was an light unit, almost free and low efficiency. But one guy build 10 factories to build it and just overspam enemy. He got expensive good units, but herd destroy him in front. And so, herd cost some money. NS2 has almost free herds, just drop an armory.

    To get control on it he must build artillery with low scatter damage, but he can't do it so fast and lose. Thers is no artillery and scatter long range weapons in 1 min. Whips maybe but herd destroy it in 0.5 sec in close. If we cant add scatter damaging weapon, lets add at least buff weapon to brood marine screen just for a second like commander ability. Or ability to protect nearby cyst from destroying for some seconds to allow commander use this ability... maybe contamination without damage (will cause building on marine start on 1st minute means "denied")

    Currently i see using healing to save RT and bone wall. On 10th biomass - nuclear winter with contamination because OP.
    This brood is unuseable.
    Post edited by bork on
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    It seems like your problem is that you're playing on high population servers??

    On normal servers the "herd" you mention in maint wouldn't be able to just walk in and wipe the hive anywhere near as easily as you seem to be implying..

    Also purple/red players (tier 6/7) can often hold a room like maintenance all on their own.. remove the purple player from your little scenario and the "herd" in question becomes easy to deal with...

  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited August 31
    Maybe its just a single game. This guys just get in and kill all. Had you and gold skulk or purple - nevermind, he just makes getting lost for everyone. Somewhere i will record and place here it. Now - ok, just allow me complaining that community has opinion that marines is op. I can play gorge and watch what it turns into.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    It seems like your problem is that you're playing on high population servers??

    On normal servers the "herd" you mention in maint wouldn't be able to just walk in and wipe the hive anywhere near as easily as you seem to be implying..

    Also purple/red players (tier 6/7) can often hold a room like maintenance all on their own.. remove the purple player from your little scenario and the "herd" in question becomes easy to deal with...

    What do you call "high population" ?

    On a 18 to 24 slots server you can make a group of 5 to 6 marines (half the team) being a bulldozer. Their main routine is to hit a harvester and move on to the next. Even on a 16 slot server. 4 good marines are to be feared like Ebola.

    The same number of skulks entering the room to defend is no match against that.
    On one hand they kill the marine party but they loose the harvesters as the marine stuffed it with their shiny steel (can't reload fast enough to kill those skulks). On the other hand the Kharras kill the party and end up with a wounded harvester (need a gorge) and a diminished pack. It would be delusional to think they all survived. Killing the next extractor will be really difficult as there is the rest of the marine team to sentry/cover the extractors.

    Not to mention the Kharras will only follow. They won't be able to take the initiative.

    Doing the same on Kharra side has proven to be ineffective as harvesters need more time to 'deliver'.
    Doing an even bigger meat ball has proven to be ineffective on the strategy layout. You're here but not there...

    A well oiled marine team is total devastation. Good thing, teamwork isn't that good on public server. God that would cripple the game for good.

    It was not that unusual to see a Marine team deployment like 1-3-1 some time ago in comp scene. More risky but quite able to make the alien 'late' on everything.


    That's why I'm calling for "scale-able balance". When the numbers get big there must be something to prevent harvesters and extractors to die too fast. Like giving a little extra life or shield. Or the other way around to diminish damage on those structures. Or a protection depending on the time.

    The only thing that makes people think is somewhat balanced is because people adapted to make it work (more of less) at the expense of other aspects of the game. Important aspects. Ex: clog walls to block entrances, Hydra forest, Gls Spam and so on.

    Maybe Santa will bring that someday...


    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited September 2
    bork wrote: »

    i sad it immediately after game i see this problem. if the problem was in teamplay i will not post this shit =/

    One high skill player is holding a room?
    What happen in 80% of this situations right now? Skulks running on the floor one by one into the room.
    They die and repeat the process.

    Teamplay is indeed the problem here.
    Solution;
    Gather up quickly as skulk, rush in as a pack and swarm into different directions and try to hit the rine together.

    So you try to "balance" the game for people who cant do one simple task?
    "Wait a few seconds for teammates to push in together."
    Congrats

    Noone is coming from your teammates and you try to kill this marine alone and die?
    Its not the high skill marine or missing balance fault, your teammates just suck.
    bork wrote: »

    i see how cyan/violet herd on maint just get half of map and set only one (!!) marine on other dimension (departures), and aliens can't do anything -

    A violet herd? How the fuck is that even possible? There only a few tier 6-7 on each server, and they should split up after a shuffle.
    If all the high tier players are in one team you have a good old stacked game.
    Well, thats another problem these days:
    People are to dumb to shuffle, but thats another story.
    So no need to "rebalance" for this situation either.
    image
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited September 2
    Thank you. Will try wait next time.
    So about violet herd... some flashmob becomes last time. Green players having as i see purple skulk challenge medal. Because balancer gains all greens to purple player if many greens like me on server, they are rebuying NS2 / recreating account and play as a green guys breaking the game.

    So as you sad, devs can add a weapon what shooting just if whole team charging it. Commander can't do it because he is commanding and the you recommend me select other team.
    Noway to ogranize non-clan team in 10 secs... Even if you completely rebuild NS2 hud (so, its increase teamplay to 20% almost)
  • borkbork Brest, Belarus Join Date: 2018-08-10 Member: 242760Members Posts: 34 Advanced user
    edited September 3
    FIve mins ago a game on docking (again). So the marines split by groups by 3/4, and we can't go even to kill 1 resource and cant attack it in front. They are getting upgrades SO FAST.
    We can't just hold three marines TOGETHER, instead of send 3 skulks to resbite, 1 gorge to building and fight in 4 aliens in a location. We tried to attack armed group in 8 aliens and all died because almost all marines has cyan level.

    I see that if you not win as alien in first 4 minutes (4 RTs, 2 lerks, 1 really good fade), you will lose.

    Aliens are strong in 1v1 fight 2v2 fights. Not so strong to protect this angry pushes and bite res in same time.
    Maybe game is balanced about 5 marines in the field and 5 aliens in the field, battles 2v2 almost everytime.

    But vs 4+ rines, aliens can't do anything, sorry. I tried bile, tried spores, tried spikes... Mates trying to attack that damaged marines and everyone dies. Only lerks surviving because very long distance, does 30-40 dmg time to time, it working for 30 secs, maybe for 1 min, next one marines get his steel eggs in hand and rush forward then everybody dies. They are just annihilating all. You can kill prepared push with queue of 4 lmg marines one by one. But you cant even touch push of one group with 4 shotguns or (sorry jesus) GLs. I mean you can destory it, physically, if somebody do mistake, if you are on drugs, or lucky loves you... if not, hail bullets mow all.

    About skulk are too weak vs armor2 marines (do not attack, huh? bite res? how if guys is protecting lines on tram, you cant attack res, you must attack it, but cant). Gorge is good vs groups on maps like eclipse, on others big rooms its like remove one player from team if no bile with shift. Fade requires at least cyan level of skill, unplayable before. Lerks working, because very OP than for example marine shotgun (same price). It all seems like while balance issue was founded, devs try to hide issue using buff of some single unit... now you have one unit everybody cant play and have fun, and other units, nobody can play exclude real masters.

    i have to add, i can't play this way like this guys. When i try to rush forward - i die immediately. But this cowboys different. They are going like train and aims like laser.

    so difficult to talk about this game. when you play, you feel that it's fucked up, it's impossible to play. when you come to write a review - it looks like everything is right, and it just seemed.

    the last month I play this game every day for 6-12 hours. maybe it's less than those who spent 3000 or more in it. but I do not have the feeling that I learned to play it. every battle i see same, marines holding locations like indestructable stones, and aliens trying to manage something to survive. Sometimes one lucky fade gets 31/5 and marines losing. Sometimes marines is holding longer and aliens is getting onoses and win. Sometimes 10 aliens dying every 0.5 sec overspamming 4 marines holding one phase gate and kill it, by some way.

    Otherwise - execution named "dont touch us, we are playing marines". Maybe it is expected, i know, to make game MvA. Sometimes, just at a wild level, with a team of work that you do not do, you just can not not bypass, kill, do anything.
    Post edited by bork on
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 163 Advanced user
    Agreed. Play on lower player count servers. I find the nice medium to this is 8v8 to 10v10 max. I try not to hop on 24 player + servers
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Don't play on 20+ player servers

    Seed 16/18 player servers

    Mock and shun the high playercount servers

    Be the change you want to see

    I have had 8/16 people on the TA 8v8 server, and asked people who I know prefer 8v8 on the TA 12v12 server to join me to finish seeding the 8v8 server. If they all joined, the server would have been seeded. Instead all of them said, "Why should I join a server that isn't fully seeded when I am on a seeded one?"
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    SquishpokePOOPFACE
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Don't play on 20+ player servers

    Seed 16/18 player servers

    Mock and shun the high playercount servers

    Be the change you want to see

    I have had 8/16 people on the TA 8v8 server, and asked people who I know prefer 8v8 on the TA 12v12 server to join me to finish seeding the 8v8 server. If they all joined, the server would have been seeded. Instead all of them said, "Why should I join a server that isn't fully seeded when I am on a seeded one?"

    Use group chat, duh.

    Really, this is a case of once bitten twice shy. Nowadays, I only ever seed servers out of goodwill to the person who asked. It could have filled, but it was just as likely to lose a player as another joined and come to nothing. As far as they can tell, its still 8/16 and that is a risk they were unwilling to take.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Aeglos wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Don't play on 20+ player servers

    Seed 16/18 player servers

    Mock and shun the high playercount servers

    Be the change you want to see

    I have had 8/16 people on the TA 8v8 server, and asked people who I know prefer 8v8 on the TA 12v12 server to join me to finish seeding the 8v8 server. If they all joined, the server would have been seeded. Instead all of them said, "Why should I join a server that isn't fully seeded when I am on a seeded one?"

    Use group chat, duh.

    Really, this is a case of once bitten twice shy. Nowadays, I only ever seed servers out of goodwill to the person who asked. It could have filled, but it was just as likely to lose a player as another joined and come to nothing. As far as they can tell, its still 8/16 and that is a risk they were unwilling to take.

    I messaged most of them on steam directly, and one of them made a request in the server all chat.

    Another time we convinced 20 people from the TA 12v12 server to jump to TA 8v8 all at once.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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