Mineshaft fixes?

KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
C'mon folks, name all the things (and provide pictures if you can) of any/all issues that you have with Mineshaft, though I do ask that you avoid "balance" related issues, no layout changes etc will be made at the moment, I'm just looking for power issues, commander clutter, structure placement oddities, flickering textures, broken collision etc.

Please do keep all issues relating to Mineshaft, at a later date I will be going through the other maps too, so we will eventually get around to those pesky issues for all of the maps.
Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

#blameHefty
Archie
«1

Comments

  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    edited August 3
    repair and cave are far to close to one another in regards to defending, it's hard for kharra to keep res over that side of the map of . when repair is starting marine spawn its a horrible start point for kharra to deal with, it puts central, cave in reach aswell as multiple res nodes.

    i will post powernode issues soon.

    i would like for it to be harder to kill cavern for marines, perhaps make entry point smaller? later on tonight i'll record a video with everything wrong in my opinion with mineshaft.

    it is my favourite map overall but it only worked very well in previous builds. I have alot more to say about it but need a PC infront of ne to get my thoughts out more clear.
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 366 Advanced user
    edited August 3
    After writing down the text, I have to say, I like Mineshaft, learned to live with it, but I never vote for it, because it always had this imbalanced feeling. Even though it feels bigger than tram? (So it would be more suited above 9vs9?)

    One that it seems Marinesided if Marines know what they're doing, but on lower skilled servers also hard for Marines, because they are not able to capture and hold Central.

    1)
    I think exiting the vent to Waterpumps is kind of a stuck spot/rookietrap.
    It might be because of the diagonal rods, but it is easy to misjudge how to go down from the into the corridor as aliens without getting stuck. Or Lerks getting stuck trying to fly in that vent..^^

    I see a lot of ppl die there due to that.


    2) Cart Tunnel is an issue.
    a) Carttunnel has no cover at all for skulks. The only thing you have is at the really high top that only lerks could really use to bait some bullets. But Skulks up there take quite a while to go down... while it might be good on first glance, it gives skilled Marines quite some time... without celerity you really feel helpless in the earlygame.
    b) Carttunnel -> NoName RT also no cover... (same could be said to Crusher, but to that I come later)


    3) No-Name RT has no name... hard to call it out like that


    4) Hivepositions... / Left Side of the Map
    After thinking about it a while, what feels really weird is in general the Deposit Lanes
    a) Marinearcing from deposit feels really easy / hard to block
    b) Having a Marine in conveyors feels ... weird... or maybe it is the fact that Sorting and Deposit are so close together.

    The right side is compared so big, but the left side? So close together...
    Maybe that is the reason combined with CartTunnels that this Map feels Marinesided if skilled Marines are on the field unless you get really good Lerks up.

    Marines just hold CartTunnels, Conveyors, Central and they have SEVEN RTs up?


    While Aliens often only hold:
    Noname, Sorting, Cave, Crusher

    Crusher:
    Seems also hard to defend in general, while there is a lot of clutter in that room that a skulk can use to wallhop, ambushing is really hard... if Marines come from CartTunnels, then you can only really go from above? From the right is not really "ambushable" if the marine walks to the left...

    If Marines come from Central, ambushing from the Top of the "stamp"... it is to high... so there are not that many options (or rather they're obvious?)

    Same feeling I always get in "The Gap", Noname RT to Cave Hive, or North Tunnel:
    These Rooms are mostly really "Caves", big caves, that make it quite hard to actually ambush (or in my opinion rather obvious how ppl are ambushing)



    EDIT:
    Repair Tunnel:
    It is hard to hold... feels like a more open Ore Extraction... you can hold it with clogtowers, but setting it up is hard enough (but most gorges just build a clogwall around the tunnel)
    If you have a good setup for the tunnel, it still feels impossible to hold since the room (and the entrances) are quite big... and preventing Marines not to come to repair from the northside... I don't know




    Aftermath: In general, I point out a lot of things, but fixing everything according to what comes to mind for me might make that map totally Alienfavoured^^
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 923 Advanced user
    @Handschuh he said in the post to AVOID balance related changes and only focus on bugs like occlusion issues, stuck spots etc.

    Must say though the vent exit at waterpumps is clunky as fuck. You'd better drop the X-Beam to the floor or something
    return to zero
    NousWandererKasharicArchieskav2
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 252 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    Must say though the vent exit at waterpumps is clunky as fuck. You'd better drop the X-Beam to the floor or something
    Easily one of the worst vent entrances/exits in any official map.

  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Thanks for the posts folks, I will first do a bug tweak regarding what feedback i've gotten here and privately on discord.

    After that, I will begin working on a tweaked version of mineshaft to hopefully address "some" of the concerns regarding balance, though I don't want to make huge sweeping changes, I do want to see mineshaft played and enjoyed more.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 752 Advanced user
    Can you check the area under the walkway between the bottom left tech point and water treatment? I remembe it very annoying to use and also annoying to climb back up again as marine.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Can you check the area under the walkway between the bottom left tech point and water treatment? I remembe it very annoying to use and also annoying to climb back up again as marine.

    Any chance you could give screenshots of where you mean... Also, there is no water treatment on mineshaft, so that is causing me more confusion XD
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,701 Advanced user
    I think he means the area between pilot drill and water pumps.
    I think that area is fine, unless there are stuck spots or it's really hard to get out. Marines have no business being down there anyway.


  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    vent at waterpumps is awesome, perfect ambush spot and makes it easier for aliens to get away, if you have problems getting up there, try holding shift, i've never failed. you probably just mad because its a good spot. it would be a tragedy to lose that big X or the vent!(perhaps shorten the vent and bend it round the corner?
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
    Kasharic
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 752 Advanced user
    edited August 3
    lcmzcg8s1cst.jpg
    Stuck Spot. Should have collision geo.

    tiupl26f3z24.jpg
    This is the area I was talking about... I think collision geo to even out the walking area would be nice, it is really annoying walking there.

    887cxp5nezt5.jpg
    Tiny hole lol... But the reason I screenshotted this is because it is very annoying to get into that vent if you are not using the scaffolding. It is the vent entry from Pilot Drill to Central.

    ckjf5lohz9ki.jpg
    Misaligned props. This is North Tunnels.

    2cta5s19c0hj.jpg
    Erm... Just no. This is in Cavern.

    m0iwbont92x4.jpg
    Pitch black area on low lights in this vent (the one from Water Pumps).

    xain8z6rnfyh.jpg
    Another pitch black area in Brew Rooms.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    Make central drilling the 6th tech point, and make the hive impossible for marines to attack immediately from any entrance. And keep it double res.
    mattji104
    Kasharic
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 427 Advanced user
    edited August 4
    edit:i'll come back later and fix it.
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    edited August 4
    Archie wrote: »
    vent at waterpumps is awesome, perfect ambush spot and makes it easier for aliens to get away, if you have problems getting up there, try holding shift, i've never failed. you probably just mad because its a good spot. it would be a tragedy to lose that big X or the vent!(perhaps shorten the vent and bend it round the corner?

    What about the big X makes it an awesome ambush spot or helps aliens in any way????

    Like seriously it's so anti alien that my first thought upon seeing it was whoever created mineshaft must despise the alien side.

    DMD_mineshaft fixed that water pumps vent perfectly!
    skav2
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 366 Advanced user
    About that X I don't think that it is out of place... it should just have less collision issues ^^
  • Vman007Vman007 New York Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Members Posts: 25 Advanced user
    Can you fix the glass ceiling in operations you can shoot babblers through if you gorge on top on the other side. One annoying gorge can just make it rain babblers in operations tech pt area.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Vman007 wrote: »
    Can you fix the glass ceiling in operations you can shoot babblers through if you gorge on top on the other side. One annoying gorge can just make it rain babblers in operations tech pt area.

    A fix for this is very difficult.

    It is caused by pathing, on that outer area that you gorge up and drop your babbler egg etc, there is no pathing up there, so the babblers begin trying to find a way to the nearest pathing, which is inside, so they bounce and freak out trying to get to it and glitch through the geometry.

    It is "almost" fixed on my version (ns2_mineshaft_shafted) if you want to try to reproduce there, but the issue is that now in that room, there is pathing overlapping, which causes all manner of other annoying issues.

    I will continue to try for a more consistent and workable solution though.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Maybe making sure no gestation can occur there...
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • Vman007Vman007 New York Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Members Posts: 25 Advanced user
    Maybe making sure no gestation can occur there...

    Yea exactly that. Could place a bunch of boxes on top to obstruct a skulk trying to evolve. Or something like that.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Maybe making sure no gestation can occur there...

    I can easily make that upper area as no evolve, but a determined gorge can still make it up there, I may also be able to make it no-build, but the gorge can build the babblers elsewhere.

    Doing those things only bandaid the issue, it doesn't fix the problem. It would certainly make it harder to abuse, so I will do it, but even after that fix is in place, it will still be possible to abuse, just harder.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Maybe making sure no gestation can occur there...

    I can easily make that upper area as no evolve, but a determined gorge can still make it up there, I may also be able to make it no-build, but the gorge can build the babblers elsewhere.

    Doing those things only bandaid the issue, it doesn't fix the problem. It would certainly make it harder to abuse, so I will do it, but even after that fix is in place, it will still be possible to abuse, just harder.
    Yes but, "harder" makes it more like the person is determined to exploit. So a kick can be justified as any BOFH would do.

    Also, making the slope (wall and glass) thicker could probably help (not tested). Nobody really look there unless there is a good reason.

    Finally 2 solutions:

    1/ A vertical collision wall will for sure erase the problem. Outside decorative matter this glass bubble shouldn't be allowed. The marines always think there's an alien in base. Only for that it should have been "blocked" a long time ago.

    2/ Creating a lava pool with deadly fumes going up for the decoration part. Fumes in which you hide a killer entity. You can add a lava fall like in ... Lava. It could make the trick. It fit perfectly the polarity of the map. Water and blue (Cave) on the bottom, red and lava on the top (Operation)


    Next:

    Fixing Cave would be nice. It's a GL fest in there. More stalagmites/stalactites to at least remove the possibility of a bombardment from far away. The hive is at the lowest point in the room. So anybody entering the room has the upper ground. Not the ideal configuration in any case for any life-form.

    Crusher...
    Those things.
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Yes but, "harder" makes it more like the person is determined to exploit. So a kick can be justified as any BOFH would do.

    Also, making the slope (wall and glass) thicker could probably help (not tested). Nobody really look there unless there is a good reason.

    It is already clearly an exploit... that is being abused... the person needs to get onto that area, go gorge, make babblers and then command them to "land" on the roof (which has no pathing)... they are already going out of their way to exploit... why aren't they being banned or at least kicked already to discourage them? Discourage more and it will be abused less.

    Making the glass/walls thicker is something I've already tried, it doesn't work, adding collision geo to the area also doesn't work... the geo isn't at fault, the ai needs pathing, that upper area has no pathing, the babblers will search for the nearest pathing and glitch through anything in the way.
    1/ A vertical collision wall will for sure erase the problem. Outside decorative matter this glass bubble shouldn't be allowed. The marines always think there's an alien in base. Only for that it should have been "blocked" a long time ago.

    No... just... no... invisible walls are horrible. I can almost guarantee that all devs would be very much against this solution.
    2/ Creating a lava pool with deadly fumes going up for the decoration part. Fumes in which you hide a killer entity. You can add a lava fall like in ... Lava. It could make the trick. It fit perfectly the polarity of the map. Water and blue (Cave) on the bottom, red and lava on the top (Operation)

    This would completely change the visual aesthetic of the whole area, something I would be very hesitant to do. Not only that but it would require new assets to make it clear that its a danger area... again, can't do that either.
    Next:
    Fixing Cave would be nice. It's a GL fest in there. More stalagmites/stalactites to at least remove the possibility of a bombardment from far away. The hive is at the lowest point in the room. So anybody entering the room has the upper ground. Not the ideal configuration in any case for any life-form.
    Crusher...
    Those things.

    These things are things i'm completely unwilling to touch. This is WAY more work than people seem to think and i'm already swamped with working on unearthed, splitting my time and effort to this extent would inevitably lead to something suffering... Also I did say something in my original post about this kind of thing.
    Kasharic wrote: »
    C'mon folks, name all the things (and provide pictures if you can) of any/all issues that you have with Mineshaft, though I do ask that you avoid "balance" related issues, no layout changes etc will be made at the moment, I'm just looking for power issues, commander clutter, structure placement oddities, flickering textures, broken collision etc.

    Please do keep all issues relating to Mineshaft, at a later date I will be going through the other maps too, so we will eventually get around to those pesky issues for all of the maps.

    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • Vman007Vman007 New York Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Members Posts: 25 Advanced user
    Yea that would work kash. Thank you. Obviously most server admins dont appreciate exploits. And most would kick for that one. Problem is most admins arent on all the time. And usually damage is done by the time they get there.

    Its hard for a gorge to get up there without gorging up there. And since the primary issue is when they have their base set up in operations making it rain on ips etc. Like i how i saw it. I feel if marines cant lane gap to see a gorge making a ladder or visually see them via glass or obs. or even auditory noises. Then maybe just maybe they deserve to exploit(not really).

    Thanks again i know its a superfluous minor fix.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Vman007 wrote: »
    Yea that would work kash. Thank you. Obviously most server admins dont appreciate exploits. And most would kick for that one. Problem is most admins arent on all the time. And usually damage is done by the time they get there.

    Its hard for a gorge to get up there without gorging up there. And since the primary issue is when they have their base set up in operations making it rain on ips etc. Like i how i saw it. I feel if marines cant lane gap to see a gorge making a ladder or visually see them via glass or obs. or even auditory noises. Then maybe just maybe they deserve to exploit(not really).

    Thanks again i know its a superfluous minor fix.

    Its certainly worth fixing, especially if this is becoming more commonly known.

    I'll take a look at it later today, see if I can get the solution done and i'll send it across to be bundled into the next patch, in the mean time, I will also add it to ns2_mineshaft_shafted which should hopefully give an option to play without that exploit until the next build is released.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    You could ask the devs to make the "no evolve" texture also apply to placing babbler eggs.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Could you put a tiny spec of pathing away from the glass to give the babblers a closer target?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 317 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Could you put a tiny spec of pathing away from the glass to give the babblers a closer target?

    No, the pathing system in NS2 assumes one contiguous surface. Islands can easily mess up the system and cause tons of bugs.
  • XaleXale Paris / France Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Members Posts: 126 Advanced user
    Too much hive spot.
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    Re-Worked ns_hera, taking ns2_hera by |-DMD-| Rusty as a base
    Released : https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/155092/ns2-hera2018
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 627 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    You could ask the devs to make the "no evolve" texture also apply to placing babbler eggs.

    I can easily do a no evolve AND no build texture in the area to prevent both... but it will still be possible to clog ladder up there and exploit... The best I can possibly do with this is make it as awkward as possible to do, but even then, we may still see it happening.
    Nordic wrote: »
    Could you put a tiny spec of pathing away from the glass to give the babblers a closer target?

    Regardless of how small the pathing would be, it would interfere with the pathing directly below it, which would likely cause all manor of annoying little bugs in operations. So its just not worth the pain of doing it.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,542 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    No... just... no... invisible walls are horrible. I can almost guarantee that all devs would be very much against this solution.
    They're not even supposed to be able to go there. Those who know will just be blocked, those who don't will not even know. Plus it's cumulative with the next suggestion.
    Kasharic wrote: »
    This would completely change the visual aesthetic of the whole area, something I would be very hesitant to do. Not only that but it would require new assets to make it clear that its a danger area... again, can't do that either.
    No new asset required. All that is needed is already there. In fact it would fit nicely. I mean what's the point of this glass bubble if not to visually control stuff? Like machines and that lava flows. Right now you have a beautiful view on .. the void.
    Kasharic wrote: »
    These things are things i'm completely unwilling to touch. This is WAY more work than people seem to think and i'm already swamped with working on unearthed, splitting my time and effort to this extent would inevitably lead to something suffering... Also I did say something in my original post about this kind of thing.
    I can agree that all things aren't that tidy and neat concerning those maps, but i'm not asking for something huge. If i ask it it's because i know it's quite possible without harm and putting too much time in it.

    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Just going to pipe in to say that invisible walls are one of the worst things ever to encounter in a game.

    They should never EVER be considered a solution for any kind of problem.

    It would be better to put up an actual wall of rock over the opening to gap, thus making the area on the other side of the operations glass purely aesthetic. (Or just change operations glass wall to a solid one and remove that little area entirely)

«1
Sign In or Register to comment.