ns2_sol

MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
I'm making a new map.

sol.jpg

Eat it @The_Welsh_Wizard !

The map is in greybox layout testing atm so feedback on the map layout itself is needed the most for now.

Minimap:
38b278f986.jpg

Marine Spawn: Earth
Alien Spawn: Jupiter or Saturn

Workshop link: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1434225549

Mod ID: 557C8B8D
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KasharicpSyk0mAnNintendowsThe_Welsh_WizardBeigeAlertmoultanoSupaFred

Comments

  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 1,685 Advanced user
    Layout looks almost like mesh.
    Lacks crashed trains.
    Glad you started working on a map again!


  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,433 Advanced user
    As I said yesterday, I can't really say anything about the layout yet since I've only played one match on it. I don't see any fundamental flaws, though. Those two vents in the middle might make it a bit difficult to hold marine naturals, that's it. You did, however, nail the room size for greybox.

    Someone raised a good point yesterday, though, which is roomnames. They are obviously very temporary, but e.g. "Eris" and "Ceres" sound pretty similar, if someone has a heavy accent it might be hard to tell which one they mean.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 727 Advanced user
    edited July 9
    Looooooooooooooooooooooooool

    I would have never thought this could be your map. Glad you are mapping again. One thing I don't understand though... why is every room named after planets / moons but only one room named after the dog of Mickey Mouse?

    Layout looks solid, room layouts felt surprisingly solid aswell for a greybox. The map's center felt a bit empty / too overcomplicated for a large area without RT / TP. But that is just a feeling. Judging from the map it looks fine. The center has also really some similarities with Mesh lol.

    Also I agree with pSyk, it is missing crashed trains. Unplayable.

    Also I believe one room should be called "Home" :thinking:
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    As I said yesterday, I can't really say anything about the layout yet since I've only played one match on it. I don't see any fundamental flaws, though. Those two vents in the middle might make it a bit difficult to hold marine naturals, that's it. You did, however, nail the room size for greybox.

    Someone raised a good point yesterday, though, which is roomnames. They are obviously very temporary, but e.g. "Eris" and "Ceres" sound pretty similar, if someone has a heavy accent it might be hard to tell which one they mean.

    Ceres already appears to have been renamed to Titan... so that issue is already resolved XD
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    edited July 9
    @Vetinari I renamed Ceres to Titan if you look at the minimap I posted above

    Btw thx to @Kasharic for providing his greyboxing tutorial https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/154824/tutorial-greyboxing-for-gameplay
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    VetinariKasharic
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 727 Advanced user
    What is the theme of the map?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,433 Advanced user
    What is the theme of the map?

    solar system
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    Nintendows
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    What is the theme of the map?

    Grey... the theme is grey.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    Vetinari
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 115 Advanced user
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    G_Lock wrote: »
    Wheres Uranus?

    In Urectum
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    there was a speicifc reason I did not include Uranus into the map
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  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 764 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    there was a speicifc reason I did not include Uranus into the map

    You could've just called it by it's original name, George...
    Herschell knew the game, naming the planet after his king :D
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,528 Advanced user
    Much to do... indeed.


    Try to think from the Khaara POV...
    Arc range isn't the issue there. Straight lanes are.
    fd7mm35dhxzg.jpg
    apawv2enqhrg.jpg
    t1czq9z57ekz.jpg
    c4yain9own30.jpg


    Lunar
    Marine POV
    Like an elephant in the alley.
    pqyxagv6t0jv.jpg
    ydpvybt7pvfj.jpg
    j52hiphim40m.jpg

    Khaara POV
    Way too exposed even if it seems doable. GL/FT will ultimately lock it.
    87rbzklfog5c.jpg
    7nagoqd911r4.jpg


    Jupiter
    Marine POV
    Can shoot the hive from a great distance. A GL bird nest spotted. Lane... straight...
    t2f8l924toui.jpg
    p0e0cf4oaoiy.jpg
    a4ajri2zdv5v.jpg
    zetfldp63kt1.jpg
    6kh3llwnsygt.jpg

    Khaara POV
    One trick or two but easily defused.
    ika9ppli7sj4.jpg
    hih5e5zj8v5i.jpg
    pawnwjy5megu.jpg
    z4krdh323chv.jpg


    Saturn
    Marine POV
    "Whey mah railgun?!"
    1hhae7wdrc73.jpg
    n27lgsyf34r3.jpg

    Khaara POV
    It almost look better but it's a trap.
    dyn7223ixg6s.jpg
    suatno3shaeh.jpg


    Solar
    Marine POV
    Can shoot the hive from a position that also allow to cover the ARC. It's like you took a bullet in the toe.
    mnggvirjd4x9.jpg
    8yzu30p7fgbx.jpg
    ops2l83w2wiq.jpg
    s32uy7clrjds.jpg

    Khaara POV
    Naked in the middle of the room.
    q0k22d82mp6h.jpg
    2b41y4v1adja.jpg
    6o01zknw9mrn.jpg


    Earth
    Khaara POV
    Don't even think about it.
    0a5o5zib3faw.jpg
    ofjrk68acurz.jpg


    Weird or bug:
    The PN entity it somewhat tricky and have a big bounding box... watch out.
    a6nc5d9y822n.jpg
    0nuxii08qfb2.jpg
    9esz3wnbsdvm.jpg
    2k8zl3ylivjm.jpg
    d4kufm2ixcx3.jpg


    Holding 2 location gives quick access to 4 TechPoints.
    49rdy8tfyeky.jpg
    TF setup can be quite a thing to help fortify those positions. If a cleaning occurs on one of those point the marine team can still use Titan/Eris as a proxy to get back to Mars/Neptune. Killing Pluto on the way will be easy...


    Also use a chronometer for measuring the time needed to go from one point of interest to another. You'll see things eventually...

    Use the replace tool to remove the grey box texture. 1 minute job. It gives a little help to the Khaaras especially with cloak (even if it's a dump right now).


    Good luck...



    (yeah i like ... ... )
    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    edited July 14
    I have no idea if you want to tell me if the map is too arc friendly or not arc friendly enough. I knew the arc spots when I build the TPs. The long hallway next to lunar here is the exception since that happened to a layout alteration that I had to make.

    The power nodes are intended to be angled.
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  • ThesaltyseacaptainThesaltyseacaptain Canada Join Date: 2018-07-11 Member: 242113Members Posts: 5 Fully active user
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    edited July 14
    it's greybox... or do you mean the power nodes?
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  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 1,528 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    I have no idea if you want to tell me if the map is too arc friendly or not arc friendly enough. I knew the arc spots when I build the TPs. The long hallway next to lunar here is the exception since that happened to a layout alteration that I had to make.

    The power nodes are intended to be angled.
    • Straight alleys are a Christmas gift for the marine. Everywhere near a Khaara TP those alleys are too easy to defend for the marines. Any ok marine will just obliterate any threat coming from here. Add to this GLs and you have a steel wall that no Khaara can break through. The screenshots show both points of views. It's kind of obvious. Also it shows the max distance from which a gorge can reach the ARC with bile. It's way too dangerous. One gorge must feel naked in there. Adding crates won't save the day. "The Arc range isn't the problem". It's a frag fest for marine team (not to mention TF). I didn't give the tip but you can set up TF in a way that it can cover 3 lanes...
    • The "2 locations easy win" is a great issue.

    If I were you I would stop and :
    • try to use a grid of 256 to see were i should break a 'line of sight' or add obstacles to help the Khaaras.
    • get the travel time right
    • use robots to see where both team meet for the first engagements
    The you will have a list of thing to do popping in your head.





    ChubbChubbs ???

    Reach me on NS2 forums in :
    Map: Outer Rim Ark and Outer Rim Ark Edge
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    little update:

    moved titan and eris more towards marine spawn. This leads to bigger rotation times from the ris junction to pluto. Also rotation times to the alien side naturals (neptune and mars) are a bit faster through the center now

    Minimap:
    8fc3a5ff28.jpg
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,433 Advanced user
    edited July 23
    My issue with this map yesterday was how we just couldn't keep marine naturals because of how hard it was to laneblock.

    Looking at the minimap again, I have a suggestion how to fix it:
    qvM2yuv.png

    Right now, if marines want to cover all lanes they have to play super aggressively and essentially hold aliens back at the red line, having players in Eris, Mars and Neptune. If they can hold that, they have already won, anyway. I feel like it takes pretty long to get to these places from marine start.

    The only alternative is playing super passively and always having marines at Venus and Mercury. But if you're playing that passively you're probably going to lose.

    The issue is that you can't just have players sit at Titan (defend the blue line) because of those two central vents. I didn't see them used much yesterday, but that's because marines sucked and there was no need to. But even if we had covered the center properly aliens would have run around us.

    I suggest removing those two vents and instead adding vents in the three marked locations (Mars, Neptune, Titan (hard to see)). This allows marines to play defensively without being extremely passive at the blue line. If they push up past the red line aliens still have a chance of getting around them, though.

    Two more things:
    - Venus is pretty hard to defend for a natural because you have to walk right up to it
    - I felt like it took me forever to get anywhere as marine and by the time I arrived aliens had already set up an ambush. This is however just a gut feeling, I don't know what the actual rotation times are.

    edit: Another idea if you want to keep the vents would be to have the Neptune vent go to where I drew the titan vent and have the Eris vent be a lot shorter. Basically, don't do vents from alien naturals to marine naturals. Bad.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 727 Advanced user
    I think the map has good working lanes. Having difficulties blocking lanes is most certainly not a map issue. Besides, I think if marines are forced to play agressive, it is a good thing.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Right now, if marines want to cover all lanes they have to play super aggressively and essentially hold aliens back at the red line, having players in Eris, Mars and Neptune. If they can hold that, they have already won, anyway. I feel like it takes pretty long to get to these places from marine start.

    Myself, Meph and Ghoul were all spectating the round, the issue was not with the map, it is with the marines.
    The round took 35 minutes and I saw marines use the middle lane all of about 7 times in the whole round.

    Marines just don't use the area, so aliens have free reign to go through. The vents were almost never used, largely because they didn't NEED to be used, aliens also got a tunnel in Titan that went unscouted WITHOUT a shade for 8 minutes. When it was finally killed, it was replaced about 30 seconds later and had a shade put on it, which took marines another 5 minutes to discover.

    Ghoul suggested moving the Pluto RT close to (or into) Eris, which I think is a good idea, but I also suggested to Meph to rotate the map 90 degrees to make marines spawn south and aliens spawn north, because this would feel more familiar to people when they play, as a majority of the maps have this spawn setup. The reason for these suggestions is to make the middle lane more intuitively important, so for people that don't think strategically, it is still obvious that this lane needs to be used.

    I don't think the layout is at fault for the marine loss, I think marines clumping up and rarely using the middle lane really ruined your chances.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    Mephilles
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 727 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Ghoul suggested moving the Pluto RT close to (or into) Eris,
    I think then it would be too easy and too fast for marines to pressure it and would leave aliens with 1 natural only. Would also make a center PG too powerful.

  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 154 Advanced user
    Why not just add another rt in the middle? Somewhere between titan and eris would work but not necessarily in either of them if you catch my drift. If it is in either room it would be too close to other rts. so in the middle hallway would work imo but thats if you want people to move to the center of the map but not pressure the other teams nats.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    Ghoul suggested moving the Pluto RT close to (or into) Eris,
    I think then it would be too easy and too fast for marines to pressure it and would leave aliens with 1 natural only. Would also make a center PG too powerful.

    It would not leave aliens with only 1 natural... the term "natural" is to describe the "nearest RT" on a specific side... the RT would still be there, it would just be harder to take and hold with the change... Look at Mineral to see that Pump Control is still an alien Natural, but one that is hard to hold.
    skav2 wrote: »
    Why not just add another rt in the middle? Somewhere between titan and eris would work but not necessarily in either of them if you catch my drift. If it is in either room it would be too close to other rts. so in the middle hallway would work imo but thats if you want people to move to the center of the map but not pressure the other teams nats.

    This was also suggested, but Meph doesn't like the idea of having 11 RTs.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Another suggestion I made was to remove mars and neptune RTs and move Pluto RT closer to Eris, but make the Eris RT a double node.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 912 Advanced user
    little update:

    - moved Pluto RT to Eris to give the central lane more importance.
    - rotated the entire map by 90° (so marines spawn south now), with this players hopefully have an easier time reading the map and how it flows
    return to zero
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 596 Advanced user
    No minimap pic? I R DISAPPOINT!
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 115 Advanced user
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