(ns2 basics) Want help with the basics of NS2 as a marine? look here

KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 531 Advanced user
edited February 21 in NS2 General Discussion
Okay, If you're experienced with ns2, this should all already be a familiar topic for you, but feel free to add thoughts, ideas, suggestions etc.

In this post i'll briefly go over two basic things... Laneblocking and Zoning... This is by no means advance in any way, it explains the very basics and nothing more, but its a good place to start from.

Lane-Blocking

Okay, Lane-blocking basics.
First of all, what is a lane and how many are there?... lets use tram as our example for now.
Lanes are the potential routes to your base, so for this example we will use shipping.
From shipping we can see 3 lanes. Logistics, Observation and South tunnels. (see spoiler image)
1.jpgRed - Left lane. Green - Middle lane. Blue - Right lane.

In the following picture red lines show where initial, early game blocking should occur, to prevent a base rush and secure natural RTs. You are blocking all entrances including vents to vital rooms (in this case, your Natural RTs)
2.jpg

Once your first resource towers are secure and you are moving on and taking more map to control. the Ideal lane blocking will look more like this.
3.jpg

This secures 5 RT nodes and also should drastically reduce risk of Base rushes.

The only way to block in a more efficient manner would be to block the alien base entirely.
4.jpgRed lines - Warehouse Hive
Blue lines - Server Room Hive

Using this very basic principle is vital to a marine game. without correct lane-blocking the aliens can win the round in a matter of seconds with a rush.


Zoning

Zoning is very similar to lane-blocking. In lane-blocking you are controlling 1 path, the difference with zoning is that you defend multiple lanes from an optimal position.
Again we will use Tram as the example.
In mid game, we would expect (assuming shipping start) that we need to “block” north tunnels, mezzanine and ore processing. Using zoning, you can achieve this using 2 marines rather than 3.
5.jpg

The red box shows the area (or “zone”) that the marine in Repair room should stick to.
The blue box shows the area that the marine in Mezz/Hub should stick to.
By moving around in these “zones” you are effectively blocking multiple “lanes”.
As you can see, zoning is a very strong tool as it frees up more marines to apply pressure, recap, rotate to help teammates etc.


Feel free to ask question, point out issues, offer advice, request advice etc.
Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

#blameHefty
Post edited by Kasharic on
VetinariKouji_SanNordicWhite_WizardMcGlaspieBeigeAlertHandschuhSquishpokePOOPFACEskav2

Comments

  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 330 Advanced user
    edited February 21
    Comment to Laning:
    Red X = Marine
    g7dydi1xx0i8.png
    240d4o9c9dus.png
    In order to successfully cover the lane - and even kill the skulk - the moment of suprise is crucial.
    So when you cover a lane and you're not parasited never give up your position or get parasited unnecessarily.
    When you're for example in the Position of the pictures on tram or veil you can cover the lane while standing behind a wall. You should only peek around the corner for a second before going into hiding again.
    If a skulk rushes in, you are in a good position to fight and there is a good chance that he is suprised by your ambush and can easily be killed.

    More Basic and Advanced stuff like that can also be found the following post or ensl.org/tutorials
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Marine Play
    Field Marine Basics by Warforce17
    Marine NSL Training Days: Part 1 Part 2 by Herakles Spectator View
    Marine Positioning by Tane

    antouKasharic
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 885 Advanced user
    While what is written in the turotials you linked is not wrong it might be a bit long and hard to digest for inexperienced players
    return to zero
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 21
    These supposedly core mechanic things are utterly irrelevant when you have aura
    Which currently Im sure most rounds do (take shade hive first) as it's just far better than the other options.
    Especially on veil where you get ink to protect nano from arcs
    Or for the new super buffed halucinations,
    Or for the vanilla skulk being super fast already so little point in getting celerity anymore... etc
    unless you get the occasional hipster com who wants to echo stuff for the fun of it, or the returning com who didnt played for ages and dont know what the current meta
    Post edited by RevanCorana on
    Kasharic.trixX.HandschuhNousWandererBeigeAlertThe_Welsh_WizardSantaClawsSquishpokePOOPFACE
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 531 Advanced user
    edited February 21
    These supposedly core mechanic things are utterly irrelevant when you have aura
    Which currently Im sure most rounds do (take shade hive first) as it's just far better than the other options.
    Especially on veil where you get ink to protect nano from arcs
    Or for the new super buffed halucinations,
    Or for the vanilla skulk being super fast already so little point in getting celerity anymore... etc
    unless you get the occasional hipster com who wants to echo stuff for the fun of it, or the returning com who didnt played for ages and dont know what the current meta

    These are tried and tested principles that are used at the highest level of play... its fine that you don't want to learn, but its ignorant to believe that what the best in the game are doing is wrong.

    (note: i'm not calling myself the best in the game, i'm talking about people of much higher skill than myself)
    Post edited by Kasharic on
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    RevanCorana
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 704 Advanced user
    These supposedly core mechanic things are utterly irrelevant when you have aura
    Which currently Im sure most rounds do (take shade hive first) as it's just far better than the other options.

    Is it though? Map matters. Player context matters. Shade first hive may be a better option for rookie players, since they can spot ambushes with aura. But experienced players dont need that to play smart and effective.
    Especially on veil where you get ink to protect nano from arcs

    When marines HAVE to arc nano, they are losing engagements, which means you dont really need shade.
    Or for the vanilla skulk being super fast already so little point in getting celerity anymore... etc

    Comp players would rip your tongue out for that :P (jk) Celerity/silence is paramount in fast paced rounds.
    unless you get the occasional hipster com who wants to echo stuff for the fun of it, or the returning com who didnt played for ages and dont know what the current meta

    Please do explain to me how does echoing out a fully mature RT become undesirable? Not to mention the ease with which the alien comm can move around the healing bases where needed.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    RevanCorana
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 885 Advanced user
    You make it sound like everyone uses shade hive now. I'll have you know that since build 321 released Shift hive first has been used twice as much Shade hive first. I'd love to know on which server you play on though.
    return to zero
    VetinariKasharic
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 330 Advanced user
    These supposedly core mechanic things are utterly irrelevant when you have aura
    Which currently Im sure most rounds do (take shade hive first) as it's just far better than the other options.
    Especially on veil where you get ink to protect nano from arcs
    Or for the new super buffed halucinations,
    Or for the vanilla skulk being super fast already so little point in getting celerity anymore... etc
    unless you get the occasional hipster com who wants to echo stuff for the fun of it, or the returning com who didnt played for ages and dont know what the current meta
    Sounds like you always play with/against rookies/lowlevelplayers... who were you again?
    G_LockRevanCorana
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,410 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    You make it sound like everyone uses shade hive now. I'll have you know that since build 321 released Shift hive first has been used twice as much Shade hive first. I'd love to know on which server you play on though.

    Only twice as many? Honestly I'm surprised it's that low.

    Silence is amazing. As alien.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    KasharicHandschuh
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 23
    Kasharic wrote: »
    These are tried and tested principles that are used at the highest level of play
    You missunderstood what I said or I didnt express it clearly enough I ve not said the lane info was incorrect , but rendered irrelevant which is a logical consequence of aura dominating over other conventional upgrades early game for the reasons mentioned (and others) and there's good statistical evidence for it affecting all servers so whatever.
    Post edited by RevanCorana on
    The_Welsh_WizardKasharic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 531 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    These are tried and tested principles that are used at the highest level of play
    You missunderstood what I said or I didnt express it clearly enough I ve not said the lane info was incorrect , but rendered irrelevant which is a logical consequence of aura dominating over other conventional upgrades early game for the reasons mentioned (and others) and there's good statistical evidence for it affecting all servers so whatever.


    Okay, first up,

    I didn't misunderstand and you didn't fail to put your point across... you're just wrong.

    "rendered irrelevant" is the phrasing that you are wrong about... laneblocking is NEVER irrelevant... I don't care what hive type you use, what stage of the game you're at, what lifeforms are on the field or what upgrades you're using... Laneblocking is ALWAYS a necessity.

    If Aura truly made laneblocking irrelevant, you wouldn't do it... what you mean (correct me if i'm wrong here by all means) is that aura HELPS COUNTER laneblocking... it can do it in multiple ways, #1 it allows you to ambush more effectively, killing marines opens up lanes... and #2 you can see where marines are, and as such avoid them to get to their back res by spotting holes in the lanes.

    the problem is -

    #1 can be countered by getting fast armour 2, which gives marines the chance to actually fight the ambusher rather than dying before he/she can react, if the commander is fast with his/her meds, the marine has a much larger chance of survival... to use your own wording "making aura irrelevant"

    #2 is only possible IF THERE ARE HOLES IN THE LANES! if there are no holes, you have to fight... meaning that the marine is doing his job properly, he is protecting the lanes... regardless of if he wins or not.

    And secondly,

    Aura is strong yes, but statistical evidence exists to show that shift hive is the preferred hive due to silence making aliens so much stronger in the early game, marines fail to block lanes due to sound scouting, lose in combat more often because they don't hear the alien coming and the commander is able to expand super fast (and reinforce expansion fast) due to echoing.

    You may have a preferred style of play that leans heavily on aura, and you may even be more effective with aura, but the stats are not in your favour here.

    Since february first on all rounds played (that are tracked by Wonitor) with 12+ players that lasted more than 5 minutes.

    Shift hive first 2703 rounds 56% winrate for aliens
    Shade hive first 1366 rounds 56% winrate for aliens
    Crag hive first 477 rounds 52% winrate for aliens
    No hive tech first 40 rounds 7% winrate for aliens

    So you see, the stats show that shift hive is done almost twice as often as shade hive and has the same winrate.

    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    Handschuh
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    why would #1 require to ambush
    #2 happens all the time in average skilled game, that is the skill level at which any reasonable person would agree the game should be balanced around.
    not about my playstyle lol, if anything its about the playstyle of everybody with a grasp of which upgrades works better in most scenarios

    your stats are not accurate you need to look specifically at maps Tram and Veil, by far the two most played maps, which both have enough vents and side paths to make aura shine.
    KasharicHandschuhThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 531 Advanced user
    why would #1 require to ambush
    #2 happens all the time in average skilled game, that is the skill level at which any reasonable person would agree the game should be balanced around.
    not about my playstyle lol, if anything its about the playstyle of everybody with a grasp of which upgrades works better in most scenarios

    your stats are not accurate you need to look specifically at maps Tram and Veil, by far the two most played maps, which both have enough vents and side paths to make aura shine.

    There is so much wrong with this comment I don't even know where to start... but lets give it a shot.

    #1 I never said ambushing requires aura, I said it helps make ambushing a lot easier.

    #2 yes, holes in lanes do happen all the time in average/low skill games... because people don't understand how to laneblock properly... HENCE ME WRITING THIS THREAD

    #3 Balancing for mid range skill leaves room for high skill players to snowball and destroy mid/low skill players with more ease than you could ever believe... you balance based off of the higher skilled people and add in options for lower skill players to still make an impact.

    #4 I have a firm understanding of all the upgrades, how they can/should be used and I have tutorials that I've written up that will explain all of that, which is part of this "basics" tutorial series i'm doing... feel free to stick around and read that thread too, you will probably learn a lot from it.

    #5 This game has 12 official maps (Biodome, Caged, Derelict, Descent, Docking, Eclipse, Kodiak, Mineshaft, Refinery, Summit, Tram and Veil) and that isn't even mentioning the MANY custom maps that also exist... if your logic only works on 2 maps, your logic is flawed.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    Handschuh
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 482 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »

    #3 Balancing for mid range skill leaves room for high skill players to snowball and destroy mid/low skill players with more ease than you could ever believe...

    Look how far you've come :')
    KasharicHandschuhThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 470 Advanced user
    Why is aura even part of this discussion? If rins are properly lane blocking, aliens know exactly where they are... Problem is is rines are properly lane blocking covering the distance to kill that rine (assuming he can shoot).

    Say 9v9 on tram because it's easy. 2 rines repair, 2 rines base of stairs mezz, 4 rines hub... Now if aliens push hard either side 2-3 marines from hub shift to support. If aliens are poorly coordinated 1-2 hub rines Haras RT. Hub/mezz are way open, If 6 skulks rush from mezz your going to take heavy losses to 2 decent rines, and hub guys are right there to clean up. Best bet is repair because there is cover.... But if spawning rines run their lanes and hub shifts to cover good luck holding.

    Problem with lanes is that if you grab 2 random pub players an tell them to hold repair chances are their total hive skill will be sub 2k.... Now your decent 2.5k player goes and solos them and ambushes the hub rines running in to support killing 1 more, meanwhile 4 skulks and a gorge hit from mezz.

    A lane blocked by "beginner" players is an allusion of safety... With the differences in skill in this game breaking lanes is a matter of finding the week link....

    Personally i find more offensive strategies effective, that on small maps like tram you should run your lane, not hold, forcing aliens to react or trade.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,586 Advanced user
    edited February 23
    Average skill is low skill. The average global hive skill is about 1000 if I filter out rookies. With rookies the global average hive skill is about 700. If I take the average hive skill of games played, that is about 1200.


    No matter what way you look at it, the average hive skill is pretty close to 1000. I really don't think he actually wants to balance around average skill because that would be balancing for the lowest common denominator.

    Don't make me pull out graphs. I really don't want to go through that kind of effort.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,566 Advanced user
    edited February 24
    @RevanCorana

    Laning never becomes irrelevant, regardless of the alien's tech level.

    Pretend that you are facing two doors. One has a guy with a gun behind it, and the other one is empty, "because laning is utterly irrelevant." Which door do you choose?

    It's okay to be an average player. It's not okay to be intentionally stupid and borderline treasonous to your team. Get your shit together
    Post edited by SquishpokePOOPFACE on
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 24
    Nordic wrote: »
    Average skill is low skill... No matter what way you look at it, the average hive skill is pretty close to 1000.
    Did you take into consideration the duration & frequency of play for each player? The more someone plays the more repesentative their elo score. If not it will be an underestimate because naturally the higher elo play more.
    Landing never becomes irrelevant
    ?... ????
    Post edited by RevanCorana on
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,566 Advanced user
    My b, I can't spell worth a damn
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Kasharic wrote: »
    #3 Balancing for mid range skill leaves room for high skill players to snowball

    No the exact opposite.


    @RevanCorana

    Laning never becomes irrelevant, regardless of the alien's tech level.

    You took me too literally and failed to understand what I said.




    Kasharic
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,566 Advanced user
    @RevanCorana

    Laning never becomes irrelevant, regardless of the alien's tech level.

    You took me too literally and failed to understand what I said.





    Your claim is that laning becomes "utterly irrelevant" with aura, which is completely incorrect. Laning is never irrelevant regardless of the tech. Prove me wrong
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    HandschuhVetinariKasharic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,586 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Average skill is low skill... No matter what way you look at it, the average hive skill is pretty close to 1000.
    Did you take into consideration the duration & frequency of play for each player? The more someone plays the more representative their elo score. If not it will be an underestimate because naturally the higher elo play more.
    Yes. The 1200 number I mentioned is. It is the average hive skill of games played. You know that number at the top of the scoreboard that says average skill of each team. 1200 hive skill is the average of that number across servers that record game data with wonitor. It is an average of averages that reflects people actually playing. I excluded rookie only servers too. The wonitor recording servers include TA, TTO, DMD, Ghoulsbox, and a few competitive servers. There are more servers out there, but these servers host >50% of games played. The high skill people do play more but they only play enough to move the average up by 200.

    @RevanCorana
    Laning never becomes irrelevant, regardless of the alien's tech level.
    You took me too literally and failed to understand what I said.
    [/quote]
    Maybe if people are clearly not understanding you, you should put in a little extra effort and speak more literally. It is the job of the communicator to make their message understandable.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    HandschuhKasharic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,586 Advanced user
    edited March 4
    Nordic wrote: »
    Average skill is low skill... No matter what way you look at it, the average hive skill is pretty close to 1000.
    Did you take into consideration the duration & frequency of play for each player? The more someone plays the more repesentative their elo score. If not it will be an underestimate because naturally the higher elo play more.

    Okay, here is the real statistics not my faulty memory.
    znuUaWv.png

    During that time period the average hive skill of games played was about 1460. You can also see it is a bimodel distribution with one peak at about 500 hive skill and another at about 1700 hive skill. It would be fair to say that the majority of non-rookie only games have an average skill level of about 1700 which is significantly higher than I was saying earlier.

    I should also note that the data is from servers that collect data with wonitor, which is biased towards higher skilled servers. If I had data from all servers, the values would likely be lower than shown in the above histogram.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
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