Question about welding scores

2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
Hello guys! I've just played a 92 minutes round as a marine, and all i did for ~80 minutes is weld peoples/structures/exos/arcs etc. I did that almost nonstop for whole 80 minutes, mostly because we dont have any MAC's till ~82 minutes and game was crazy intense, so i literally played for 80 minutes with my welder on and left mouse click pushed down.
Aaaand i ended as a third worst marine players out of 10 marines total. :'(
So, is there a reason why welding rewarding so low scores? I mean huh, thats reparing - very helpful for the team! Almost a battlefield game medic/engineer, but in NS. Why rewards are SO low?
Obviosly i don't want welding to be top-score playstyle (like it is in battlefield games, where medics usually are top scored players), but i don't want to be one of the worst either.
What do you guys think?
P.S. I used search, but didn't find anything on that matter - sorry if there is one already (link it for me please)
ps sorry for bad english

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Comments

  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,078 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    Well first of all, it should matter WHAT you're welding.. I sincerely doubt that you constantly had something USEFUL to weld for 80 minutes. And if you're in a mindset that you just weld what ever has taken the least amount of damage - aliens will just parasite any and everything and basically disable you in to perpetual misaction. It's a highly abusable habit you seem to have going on - and I for one think it's good that the game doesn't reward you for a habit like that. The point system should, more than anything, guide the players in to what is useful to the team.

    Ultimately you gotta look at the actions that result in a team winning games. We can all look at individual actions and value them high or low in any fashion we want. Like I'd love a score addition to well performed trickjumps?? But at the end of the day, we should just perform what ever ultimately results in victory for our team, not points.
    .trixX.
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    I weld constantly harrassed extractors, phase gates, power nodes (biled/chewed almost every 30 seconds on all 3 command centre locations) and marines+exos while pushing the hives. Is that not good enough to be at least in the middle by the scores? I didn't focus on welding parasited buildings, don't be ridiculous please.
    As i said, it was a very intense game, and teams were almost equal, so we stucked for a loooong time without any progress (same for aliens side), but with constant attacks on all directions.

    Don't get me wrong, im not chasing points, that was just my pure observation and obvious question occurs in my head, because i thought im doing something very useful here. I just can't imagine this game last so long without such intense welding, second attack at any base could ruin the pg or powernode and game might be over for marines 50-60 minutes earlier.
    ps sorry for bad english

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  • KatzenfleischKatzenfleisch Join Date: 2014-03-21 Member: 194881Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 176 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    I think you are focusing too much on the score itself. The score is really not something you should rely on since most of the time it is only a value in the code saying 'if X is doing Y for Z amount of time, then award some points'. It's almost just there to be there and give players a small sense of achievement. In fact a lot of actions do not award points at all and killing/building are the most points rewarding so far, but when looking at the RTS part it does not matter that much.

    Welding gates & rts is really good and if what you are doing is useful then you will end up winning more games, simple as that :). Just check for gorge rush too, most of the time the gorge building that mighy tunnel is far in the scoreboard, but well he allows the team to win just because of it.

    Last example: snipers, not doing much but killing a single guy here and there, but in the long run this is what makes to difference or in NS2, pinching low health lifeforms or keeping your teammates alive. Try to see the big teamwork picture and don't be fooled by the scoreboard.
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    .trixX.
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    Well, at least gorgie gameplay is really fun! You play as a cute piggy, have a lots to do - heal, clogs, hydras, very important tunnels and babblers to increase survival of your teammates. So i don't care how much scores im getting as a gorgie at all. But full time welding marine is just a marine with a welder, boring as hell and unrewarding at all :/
    And again, i don't care about scores - i just wonder what logic are used in score calculations for heavy welding activities.
    ps sorry for bad english

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  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 1,701 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    Your welding services were very much needed and appreciated even tho not everyone said it or the scoreboard honored it.
    Each moment can be very rewarding, when you realize you just saved that crucial structure from going down or that Exo from dieing or you kept that ARC alive for its final killing shot on the Hive, because you were the only one welding it instantly.

    On another note I agree that some support abilities, on alien-side too, should give more score points.
    Post edited by pSyk0mAn on


  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    Fun thing is, i managed to repair 2 arcs out of 3 at the same time and in that case one gorge wasn't enough to drop them down with bile - their hp stucked on ~5% hp while i repaired them :D
    ps sorry for bad english

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  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,815 admin
    edited February 17
    The idea behind the current score system is to award points for destroying enemy resources (both tres & pres) and thus give players feedback how much they contributed to their team's progress towards victory (as victory is gained by taking over the enemy's territory).

    Repairing/constructing structures gives very few to no score point because those activities just don't fit into that system. Maybe we could reward some more points based on the time a player spent repairing and constructing structures using the current avg. score points/min value, so it's a little more rewarding. But we need to avoid adding a reward that allows one team to gain significant more score points than the other because at that point the score system wouldn't be usable to compare the teams progress anymore.
    Developer, Modder and Server Admin of Survival of the Fattest - Ingame Nick: Ghoul
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 252 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    The idea behind the current score system is to award points for destroying enemy resources (both tres & pres) and thus give players feedback how much they contributed to their team's progress towards victory (as victory is gained by taking over the enemy's territory).

    Repairing/constructing structures gives very few to no score point because those activities just don't fit into that system. Maybe we could reward some more points based on the time a player spent repairing and constructing structures using the current avg. score points/min value, so it's a little more rewarding. But we need to avoid adding a reward that allows one team to gain significant more score points than the other because at that point the score system wouldn't be usable to compare the teams progress anymore.
    100% this.

    The proper alternative that would make most people happy without borking the score system's balance would be to include more robust end-of-round stats / round trophies. Weld time and/or armor welded, hp healed (for gorges), damage mitigated (umbra), etc.
    Post edited by NousWanderer on
    .trixX.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 152 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.

    People who doesn't weld their hard carries lose more often and their team get less kills.
    Most players don't weld each other between fights, they just run around and get one-swipe killed by a mediocre fade with focus.
    Marines welding each other during the appropriate times is part of the kill

    I don't care about the score, but marine welding time (only welding marines, not structures) should appear on the end-of-round stats
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    The idea behind the current score system is to award points for destroying enemy resources (both tres & pres) and thus give players feedback how much they contributed to their team's progress towards victory (as victory is gained by taking over the enemy's territory).
    Okay, thanks for the answer!
    Repairing/constructing structures gives very few to no score point because those activities just don't fit into that system. Maybe we could reward some more points based on the time a player spent repairing and constructing structures using the current avg. score points/min value, so it's a little more rewarding. But we need to avoid adding a reward that allows one team to gain significant more score points than the other because at that point the score system wouldn't be usable to compare the teams progress anymore.
    A bit more rewards for repairing would be nice to see!
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.
    Are you really sure of that? Because for me, that pattern might work for deathmatch gamemode in Call of Duty, but not in the teamplay game like Natural Selection.
    Don't get me wrong, i understand the importance of killing enemies and its bindings with necessity of expand, but repairing is way too underrated in comparison to killing.
    ps sorry for bad english

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  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 152 Advanced user
    2d0x wrote: »
    A bit more rewards for repairing would be nice to see!

    You shouldn't obsess over the score, it is just a guideline. It doesn't mean much.
    There is not a single decent player who tries to maximize his score during a game.

    Some of the most fundamental actions in the game doesn't award any score at all. Like laneblocking or saving extractors. You just do them because it is the optimal play
    NordicpSyk0mAnVetinari
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Blrg wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.

    People who doesn't weld their hard carries lose more often and their team get less kills.
    Most players don't weld each other between fights, they just run around and get one-swipe killed by a mediocre fade with focus.
    Marines welding each other during the appropriate times is part of the kill

    I don't care about the score, but marine welding time (only welding marines, not structures) should appear on the end-of-round stats
    It is recorded by ns2+stats. The data is there
    .
    2d0x wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.
    Are you really sure of that? Because for me, that pattern might work for deathmatch gamemode in Call of Duty, but not in the teamplay game like Natural Selection.
    Don't get me wrong, i understand the importance of killing enemies and its bindings with necessity of expand, but repairing is way too underrated in comparison to killing.
    To give little context to the rest of this comment, I am one of the few people who has access to certain NS2 datasets. I have done quite a bit of exploratory analysis of NS2 data.

    Let me put it a different way. Kill/deaths has a much stronger correlation to hive skill and wins/losses. It has a higher correlation than any other metric that I have checked. This includes score per minute, player damage a minute, structure damage a minute.

    Now you might say that this is not very scientific, and it is not. I can not say conclusively that getting kills is the most important skill in the game. It is just my opinion based on the stats.

    If you think about it, almost everything you need to do on the rts side is either dependent or assisted by the ability to get kills.

    I am not saying that mechanical skill is the only skill that you need. There are some very mechanically skilled players that don't win very often despite being very good at killing other players. The most skilled players in this game have a combination of high mechanical skill, what I will call the ability to field comm well, and other skills. Rts style decision making is extremely important but is even stronger if accompanied by high mechanical skill.


    To wrap this back around to the subject at hand, support roles in NS2 are not as important as they are in other games. Welding makes a big difference, but it is not necessary to win. I have played way too many games at all skill levels where nobody welds
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Blrg
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.

    People who doesn't weld their hard carries lose more often and their team get less kills.
    Most players don't weld each other between fights, they just run around and get one-swipe killed by a mediocre fade with focus.
    Marines welding each other during the appropriate times is part of the kill

    I don't care about the score, but marine welding time (only welding marines, not structures) should appear on the end-of-round stats
    It is recorded by ns2+stats. The data is there

    @Nordic are you sure? I don't see it mentioned on GitHub.
    PM sent.
    Stark
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    Keats wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Blrg wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.

    People who doesn't weld their hard carries lose more often and their team get less kills.
    Most players don't weld each other between fights, they just run around and get one-swipe killed by a mediocre fade with focus.
    Marines welding each other during the appropriate times is part of the kill

    I don't care about the score, but marine welding time (only welding marines, not structures) should appear on the end-of-round stats
    It is recorded by ns2+stats. The data is there

    Nordic are you sure? I don't see it mentioned on GitHub.

    I am not home so I can't look at my files, but I am certain that I have data on weld time by player. My player data is NS2+ based.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    To wrap this back around to the subject at hand, support roles in NS2 are not as important as they are in other games. Welding makes a big difference, but it is not necessary to win. I have played way too many games at all skill levels where nobody welds
    Are you sure about "all skill levels"? I think you are speaking mostly about high-level skilled players in that games. Because if a rookie, or just a bad marine shooter (as me), joins the team - he can't shoot anything, because he is surrounded by 5000 hours played flying at sonic speeds skulks and fades. All he can do to be useful is weld. But even if he weld hard, he doesn't get anything at return. Its boring (not the same as fun gorgie) and unrewarding.
    At least i get some explanations over this, for which im grateful!

    ps sorry for bad english

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  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 366 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    Welding people is important... it takes me an average time 3 full shotgun blasts in a face of a marine till he picks the welder out.. people are so slow... anyway

    Welding structures is not always the most useful thing.... wenn you weld every single rt which is low on veil for example like overlook and skylight you might waste your time there.

    The trick is to prevent skulks from biting like covering west junction from skulks which slip through system or nano vents. This job is a thousand times more useful than welding the rt while the other rt get's bitten down while you weld yours

    I've spend quite some games with over 4k hiveskill by camping west junction and got topscore
    I only did 3 things
    a) covering nano vent and skulks who tried to slip through system..
    b) when a skulk came through sub I jumped into the overlook vent from westjunction (easy trickjunp) and covered overlook
    c) when system was getting crushed I rotated into system to cover / flank our pg

    I never spent a single second welding but rather held the lane, our rt's and our ressflow.

    Even with bad aim you can cover a lane by playing smart. Don't give up your position, give your enemy a surprise and at an angle where you have tons of time to empty all your clips before he has a chance to bite you or an rt... and preaim exactly where the skulk might pop im your view... that alone increases you acc by 5%
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 685 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Even with bad aim you can cover a lane by playing smart. Don't give up your position, give your enemy a surprise and at an angle where you have tons of time to empty all your clips before he has a chance to bite you or an rt... and preaim exactly where the skulk might pop im your view... that alone increases you acc by 5%

    That 5% acc increase doesn't do a whole lot when your acc is only 5% to 10% in the first place. lol

    Even when I have near perfect positioning and can survive long enough to empty 2-3 whole clips at a lone attacking skulk, I'll often fail to get the kill.



    Marines wouldn't be so bad if it had a support role similar to the role Gorge plays.. By that I mean on Alien if you're not good at killing you can go Gorge and build stuff, heal aliens, bile stuff, get tunnels up, etc, and feel like you're contributing to the team effort (near the top of the scoreboard) On Marine if you're not good at killing you can run around, build stuff, weld stuff, and die feeling like you accomplished nothing (on the bottom of the scoreboard)

    That's what it feels like anyway.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    edited February 17
    2d0x wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    To wrap this back around to the subject at hand, support roles in NS2 are not as important as they are in other games. Welding makes a big difference, but it is not necessary to win. I have played way too many games at all skill levels where nobody welds
    Are you sure about "all skill levels"? I think you are speaking mostly about high-level skilled players in that games. Because if a rookie, or just a bad marine shooter (as me), joins the team - he can't shoot anything, because he is surrounded by 5000 hours played flying at sonic speeds skulks and fades. All he can do to be useful is weld. But even if he weld hard, he doesn't get anything at return. Its boring (not the same as fun gorgie) and unrewarding.
    At least i get some explanations over this, for which im grateful!
    Yes. I do mean all skill levels. From games where most players have only played 10 hours or so to games where most players have thousands of hours. In my experience too few people weld regardless of skill level. Even though welding isn't necessary to win, it is so helpful and I wish more people would weld their team mates.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    Blrg wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Others have suggested it, but getting kills is the most important skill in the game. People who get more kills win more often. Teams that get more kills win more often. It may be an FPS/RTS but the emphasis on the FPS.

    People who doesn't weld their hard carries lose more often and their team get less kills.
    Most players don't weld each other between fights, they just run around and get one-swipe killed by a mediocre fade with focus.
    Marines welding each other during the appropriate times is part of the kill

    I don't care about the score, but marine welding time (only welding marines, not structures) should appear on the end-of-round stats

    Idc about score points, but there should really be player and structure welding stats to help emphasize it to players.
    mattji104
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    edited February 18
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my experience too few people weld regardless of skill level. Even though welding isn't necessary to win, it is so helpful and I wish more people would weld their team mates.
    So lets make it a bit more rewarding, by adding 25-30% bonus to current welding scores! ;) Maybe this will inspire players to weld more often and bad shooters also will contribute to the team with some results (in numbers at scores tab, but still something).
    Or yeah, don't touch the scores and just add additional tab to game results, showing how much damage healed/repaired. Isn't that nice? o:)
    ps sorry for bad english

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  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,576 Advanced user
    Hey man, I love the fact that you are a team player and are willing to keep armor and structures alive.

    However, there is an opportunity cost for prolonged weldings. You gotta weigh the value of welding a structure vs. taking territory and killing lifeforms.

    A game where you did nothing but weld does reflect accurately on the scoreboard. You do have a powerful impact, but not as much as another player who prioritized their time to the most important welds and still kept up the aggression.

    Take a damaged RT, for example. Ideally you would weld it just enough for it to be alive while another marine respawns behind you and follows your lane. You weld a little bit, then scout/push ahead and trust your teammate to close the gap and finish the weld if need be. Lane coverage is often more important than 100% health of your buildings.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 366 Advanced user
    edited February 19
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Even with bad aim you can cover a lane by playing smart. Don't give up your position, give your enemy a surprise and at an angle where you have tons of time to empty all your clips before he has a chance to bite you or an rt... and preaim exactly where the skulk might pop im your view... that alone increases you acc by 5%

    That 5% acc increase doesn't do a whole lot when your acc is only 5% to 10% in the first place. lol

    Even when I have near perfect positioning and can survive long enough to empty 2-3 whole clips at a lone attacking skulk, I'll often fail to get the kill
    If you have 5% to begin with after such long hours - that is lower than any rookie..., then you neither preaim nor stop holding down the mousebutton... when you loose track you just click again once you're on the target... and 90% of the skulks out of the nanovent have no incredible movement and this is a bad place to get fast... anyway please stop making arguments like a guy with supremely huge inferiority complexes - it's getting annoying.
    Even if a rookie is waiting near the vent my chances of surviving without leap are kinda bad
    Basically I deny that you're even qualified to be in this discussion. Even though you've got tons of hours and you're showered with tips and hint's what you do wrong, you're still a smartass who does not listen to advice at all but talks like he knows everything about the game. Last time I've seen you, you were still walking into ambushes while you could've seen the skulks on the map... then you still take the "short way" around a corner and die without hitting any bullets. You still are never using the backwardsjump to gain distance - even though you know the aliens gonna crush you in 10 seconds because the guys in front of you died to several skulks... you still go close to tunnels while killing it it's like you're trying to kill a tiger with your knife instead of shooting it...

    In my opinion it's like I'm talking to an adult who is still calculating with his fingers to do some math even though ppl always recommend learn calculating in your head or JUST USE A CALCULATOR.
    Post edited by Handschuh on
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    edited February 19
    You gotta weigh the value of welding a structure vs. taking territory and killing lifeforms.
    Yeah, i did that. As i said, it was a crrrrrrrazy intense game, with nonstop attack from all directions. I realised that if i drop the welding, and start to hitting another unbreakable wall of defence with other marines, our buildings and captured rooms will simple start to fall.
    Actually this is what happened and ruined us - i wasnt able to repair too much damage, we lost an important room and game ended in a few minutes after.

    P.S. And about killing lifeforms - i have played 512 hours since the release in 2012 (most of the time played on 2012-2013), ~at 2015 i stopped playing and havent played for 1-2 years. Even back in 2012-13 i was bad at shooting but it wasn't THAT bad as it is right now. Im rusty and surrounded by players with thousands of hours played. Killing a skilled lerk or fade is literally impossible for me, no matter what. Im trying to relearn things with all that crazy alien movements, acceleration, trajectories, but it still very-very hard. Also it starting to be frustrating, because sometimes i want to play alien (im a bit better on skulking in the ceilings or playing gorgeous gorgie), but im getting shuffled at marines again and again and again for hours. And im dying dying dying all the time. Welding and mines (spending lots of moneys on them, protecting vents+extractors) is all satisfaction i can get at this moment.
    ps sorry for bad english

    imgdev.php?id=2d0x
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,576 Advanced user
    You'll be fine, since you're actively putting in effort to learn the game. 512 hours is just enough to reach that next plateau where you can middle-score and sometimes top-score
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,661 Advanced user
    The idea behind the current score system is to award points for destroying enemy resources (both tres & pres) and thus give players feedback how much they contributed to their team's progress towards victory (as victory is gained by taking over the enemy's territory).

    Repairing/constructing structures gives very few to no score point because those activities just don't fit into that system. Maybe we could reward some more points based on the time a player spent repairing and constructing structures using the current avg. score points/min value, so it's a little more rewarding. But we need to avoid adding a reward that allows one team to gain significant more score points than the other because at that point the score system wouldn't be usable to compare the teams progress anymore.
    2d0x wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my experience too few people weld regardless of skill level. Even though welding isn't necessary to win, it is so helpful and I wish more people would weld their team mates.
    So lets make it a bit more rewarding, by adding 25-30% bonus to current welding scores! ;) Maybe this will inspire players to weld more often and bad shooters also will contribute to the team with some results (in numbers at scores tab, but still something).
    Or yeah, don't touch the scores and just add additional tab to game results, showing how much damage healed/repaired. Isn't that nice? o:)
    The devs could choose to reward more points for welding. As ghoul mentioned, welding doesn't really fit into the current design. Maybe the design could give points for welding based on the rest cost of the item being welded. Such as if you weld an RT up from 50% health, you would get 50% of the tres cost of the rt as score. Is this a good system? I don't know. It is an example of a way to make welding points fit into the current design.

    The real question is, is this worth development time? Opportunity cost is the the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. Would their time be better spent elsewhere?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,576 Advanced user
    To be fair the exp increase for welding is likely a 2-minute variable adjustment, tops
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    Nintendows
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 315 Advanced user
    It might take 2 minutes to change a variable, but it takes a few hours to discuss and agree on it, and then a few more hours to test it. You also risk the change breaking something or being wrong, in which case you have to repeat the process until nothing breaks or the scores are where you want it to be.
    Nordic
  • 2d0x2d0x Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184030Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 104 Advanced user
    Well, this thread already can provide some discussion feedback ;)
    ps sorry for bad english

    imgdev.php?id=2d0x
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,442 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    The idea behind the current score system is to award points for destroying enemy resources (both tres & pres) and thus give players feedback how much they contributed to their team's progress towards victory (as victory is gained by taking over the enemy's territory).

    Repairing/constructing structures gives very few to no score point because those activities just don't fit into that system. Maybe we could reward some more points based on the time a player spent repairing and constructing structures using the current avg. score points/min value, so it's a little more rewarding. But we need to avoid adding a reward that allows one team to gain significant more score points than the other because at that point the score system wouldn't be usable to compare the teams progress anymore.
    2d0x wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my experience too few people weld regardless of skill level. Even though welding isn't necessary to win, it is so helpful and I wish more people would weld their team mates.
    So lets make it a bit more rewarding, by adding 25-30% bonus to current welding scores! ;) Maybe this will inspire players to weld more often and bad shooters also will contribute to the team with some results (in numbers at scores tab, but still something).
    Or yeah, don't touch the scores and just add additional tab to game results, showing how much damage healed/repaired. Isn't that nice? o:)
    The devs could choose to reward more points for welding. As ghoul mentioned, welding doesn't really fit into the current design. Maybe the design could give points for welding based on the rest cost of the item being welded. Such as if you weld an RT up from 50% health, you would get 50% of the tres cost of the rt as score. Is this a good system? I don't know. It is an example of a way to make welding points fit into the current design.

    The real question is, is this worth development time? Opportunity cost is the the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. Would their time be better spent elsewhere?

    I'd be cautious to increase rewards like that for the reason you mentioned. Time spent welding RTs is mostly time that could be spent somewhere else proactively.

    Although not everyone who chooses to not weld an RT actually goes on to do something proactive...
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
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