Plz bring back fade vertical to horizontal speed conversion on blink

RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
Fade used to have the most fun skill based movement back before they removed half of it for no reason, please bring it back.
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For those who dont know vertical velocity (falling) would get converted into forward speed by using blink, great fast paced sensation now gone for unknown reasons.
NintendowsIeptBarakatLocklearTriggerHappyBro
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Comments

  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 830 Advanced user
    suddenly gaining speed of 25+ was amazing indeed. The reason it got removed in the first place was becasue this behaviour was never intended. Everyone thought it was a feature but it was a bug instead.
    return to zero
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited February 2
    Why always the need to exagerate your point beyond proportions lol I dont remember exactly what the conversion rate was but for sure to get instant 25 horizontal speed out resting state (horizontally) thats totally impossible except maybe if falling from a skyscrapper for 2 minutes!

    Maybe it was a bug so what who cares? bunnyhop was a bug too (not to say fade vertical conversion was anywhere near as impactful on gameplay as bhop) but it' still cool and much more unique than bhop. I really dont see how it did interfere with the gameplay in any way.
    The effect was quite subtle, unless falling from great heights the impact on how you aim a fade was extremely small and yet gave it a whole new dimension. twas fun and unique

    Of course I understand the PDT objective is to erase from the fabric of spacetime any mechanic that raises the skill ceiling the slightest, regardless weither it a fun one or not. So this thread is pointless.
    Kasharic
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    Why always the need to exagerate your point beyond proportions lol I dont remember exactly what the conversion rate was but for sure to get instant 25 horizontal speed out resting state (horizontally) thats totally impossible except maybe if falling from a skyscrapper for 2 minutes!

    Maybe it was a bug so what who cares? bunnyhop was a bug too (not to say fade vertical conversion was anywhere near as impactful on gameplay as bhop) but it' still cool and much more unique than bhop. I really dont see how it did interfere with the gameplay in any way.
    The effect was quite subtle, unless falling from great heights the impact on how you aim a fade was extremely small and yet gave it a whole new dimension. twas fun and unique

    Of course I understand the PDT objective is to erase from the fabric of spacetime any mechanic that raises the skill ceiling the slightest, regardless weither it a fun one or not. So this thread is pointless.

    Oh sorry, not instant, the time it took to blink 3 times. Oh man big difference when considering the size of a map and the time it takes to turn a corner after a fight
    mattji104
    RevanCorana
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    wat can you try in english
    Kasharic
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited February 3
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 499 Advanced user
    Hitting 25 speed with celerity could be done in 1 - 2 blinks depending on height and skill, without celerity it required more blinks but was still possible.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    RevanCorana
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    Even if that was true (which it isnt) they couldve tweaked the conversion rate. it doesnt excuse dumbing down the mechanic
    Kasharic
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 499 Advanced user
    Even if that was true (which it isnt) they couldve tweaked the conversion rate. it doesnt excuse dumbing down the mechanic

    "Mechanic" = unintentional and abusable bug that was being exploited by lots of people.

    It is true, I, a bad fade, was able to do it relatively easily.

    HITTING a speed and MAINTAINING a speed are two different things, HITTING 25 was easy and back when the bug you're referring to was still present, I was able to (with celerity) relatively easily traverse almost any map maintaining high speed. It wasn't difficult, It wasn't a skill ceiling increase, it wasn't interesting, it was a hidden and exploitable bug.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    RevanCorana
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited February 5
    "Mechanic" = unintentional and abusable bug that was being exploited by lots of people.

    Bunnyhop was a bug too

    Quick recap since you seem a bit slow on the pedal: just about everything at comp level will fit that style of definition.

    BUG, EXPLOIT all the negative words you can think of (not much) wont make your point stronger.

    In fact, it was a really beautiful mechanic that made fade all its aerial movement flavor so only a super retarded, blind, ignorant or lazy (or any combination of those) devs could ever think to erase that from the game.
    (or maybe some kind of code nazzi trying to eradicate bugs regardless their effects are good or bad like yourself seem so evangelical about just because)

    HITTING a speed and MAINTAINING a speed are two different things, HITTING 25 was easy and back when the bug you're referring to was still present, I was able to (with celerity) relatively easily traverse almost any map maintaining high speed. It wasn't difficult, It wasn't a skill ceiling increase, it wasn't interesting, it was a hidden and exploitable bug.

    More lies, reiterating your lies enough times wont make them truths. It's kinda funny how determined you are on this because you're wrong but either way it's totally irrelevant.
    Even if that was true could just reduce the speed conversion ratio to make it less preominent.
    Similar to bhop in CS1.6 vs CS:GO

    There was no reason to gut it completely except when cast under the light of their admitted objective to lower the skill ceiling at any cost.

    Kasharic
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    Make a mod and let people try it, or record a video to show how it's a fair and balanced mechanic.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    I'd love to but I dont really have the time for it.

  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 261 Advanced user
    edited February 6
    Bunnyhop was a bug too

    On a serious note - was it a bug?

    For NS2 probably not, since I know all ns1 veterans with skill cried their eyes out to get that movement into NS2.. at least that's what I heard from the ppl I know :)


    I don't know about Halflife though
    LocklearArchie
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 482 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.

    wat
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.

    wat

    Fades can reach over 20 m/s easily. No other life form can get even close to that. And fades can change to any direction nearly instantly by using blink. What life form do you think is more manoeuvrable? Lerk? It can't do any of that and maintain over 10 m/s.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 499 Advanced user
    edited February 6
    "Mechanic" = unintentional and abusable bug that was being exploited by lots of people.

    Bunnyhop was a bug too

    Quick recap since you seem a bit slow on the pedal: just about everything at comp level will fit that style of definition.

    BUG, EXPLOIT all the negative words you can think of (not much) wont make your point stronger.

    In fact, it was a really beautiful mechanic that made fade all its aerial movement flavor so only a super retarded, blind, ignorant or lazy (or any combination of those) devs could ever think to erase that from the game.
    (or maybe some kind of code nazzi trying to eradicate bugs regardless their effects are good or bad like yourself seem so evangelical about just because)

    HITTING a speed and MAINTAINING a speed are two different things, HITTING 25 was easy and back when the bug you're referring to was still present, I was able to (with celerity) relatively easily traverse almost any map maintaining high speed. It wasn't difficult, It wasn't a skill ceiling increase, it wasn't interesting, it was a hidden and exploitable bug.

    More lies, reiterating your lies enough times wont make them truths. It's kinda funny how determined you are on this because you're wrong but either way it's totally irrelevant.
    Even if that was true could just reduce the speed conversion ratio to make it less preominent.
    Similar to bhop in CS1.6 vs CS:GO

    There was no reason to gut it completely except when cast under the light of their admitted objective to lower the skill ceiling at any cost.

    Bunnyhop was a bug, yes, and it was embraced by the masses, but if you haven't noticed, games progressed, and that BUG got REMOVED. Other than the occasional arena shooter like Reflex most games now don't have bunny hop.

    Its also very funny that you think i'm lying about fade movement being able to hit 25 with relative ease. It tells me that you're a bad fade, because as much as you choose to disbelieve me, I did it, pretty easily... Here's a video, some of the things discussed are now outdated, but its still very worth a watch.

    www.qolabs.com/partners/rant1.flv

    This was Rantology teaching my old team (about 2 - 3 years ago) how to fade well, The information starts at about 12 1/2 minutes in. One of the first things she explained was the old movement bug, which lead to me practising that one thing for a very long time.

    Whether you choose to believe me or not is irrelevant, The movement bug was a hidden mechanic and didn't actually make fading more fun (opinion), it being gone makes more sense, Having hidden mechanics without explanation in game doesn't make sense. Also, it didn't increase the skill ceiling of the fade, the fade is arguably more difficult now, making you require more skill to play a fade well, combat aside, attaining high speed now is much more difficult as a fade, and maintaining that high speed is also more difficult, it requires much more game awareness and map knowledge to be as effective as possible.

    The reason you want the bug back is so that you can exploit it to play as a fade better... Just practice and get better at fade, don't cry that your exploit is gone.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    Nintendows
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 482 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.

    wat

    Fades can reach over 20 m/s easily. No other life form can get even close to that. And fades can change to any direction nearly instantly by using blink. What life form do you think is more manoeuvrable? Lerk? It can't do any of that and maintain over 10 m/s.

    I think relative to size, their "manoeuverability" counts for very little because of their hitbox and energy demands to maintain such speeds before/after/during combat. This is why I think reverting this change would be a good thing.
    Locklear
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.

    wat

    Fades can reach over 20 m/s easily. No other life form can get even close to that. And fades can change to any direction nearly instantly by using blink. What life form do you think is more manoeuvrable? Lerk? It can't do any of that and maintain over 10 m/s.

    I think relative to size, their "manoeuverability" counts for very little because of their hitbox and energy demands to maintain such speeds before/after/during combat. This is why I think reverting this change would be a good thing.

    Could you post a video of you struggling to maintain a high speed as a fade? Maybe we can give you some tips.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,467 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    It's going to be very difficult to convince anyone to change the fade to this new system without showing them what it's like. By your short description, it seems to make the fastest and most manoeuvrable life form even faster and more manoeuvrable, and that seems crazy.

    wat

    Fades can reach over 20 m/s easily. No other life form can get even close to that. And fades can change to any direction nearly instantly by using blink. What life form do you think is more manoeuvrable? Lerk? It can't do any of that and maintain over 10 m/s.

    I think relative to size, their "manoeuverability" counts for very little because of their hitbox and energy demands to maintain such speeds before/after/during combat. This is why I think reverting this change would be a good thing.

    Could you post a video of you struggling to maintain a high speed as a fade? Maybe we can give you some tips.

    Hear that Wob. Your 6000 hive skill isn't enough. Nin wants you to learn to fade better so that you may break the 7000 barrier.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 1,335 Advanced user
    edited February 7
    That bug needed to be fixed. You can still get 24 m/s as fade if you actually have skill with the movement it's just not brain dead easy anymore. You shouldn't be able to get it with one blink because you fell from a high point. It was a necessary change.

    https://youtu.be/_bohgFuHIo8
    "If great visuals brings players in, great gameplay gets them to stay." - Valve
    KasharicNousWanderer
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 482 Advanced user
    I suppose I just disagree because I think it's silly how brain dead easy it is to get 40% marine accuracy these days. I think this is an important factor to take into account to be able to contextualise the "triviality" of gaining that speed as a fade. I also think that the sound made by metabolise and skulks is far too loud, and marine movement far too fast making marine positioning and reaction timing too forgiving.

    At this point in time I'd rather the game was more difficult from a marine perspective and easier from an alien perspective. This is not a change (revert) I'm married to.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,367 Advanced user
    Wob wrote: »
    I suppose I just disagree because I think it's silly how brain dead easy it is to get 40% marine accuracy these days.

    Well, you do have a very unique perspective on things :D

    Me an 90% of the playerbase couldn't hit fades if their lives depended on it.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    Check out my new Balance Mod
    Saffron_baker
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    It's true the change to fade movement was made back when shooting 25% was like 35% now. Makes you question if it would have been a change that needed to happen if the order was switched
    mattji104
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,047 Advanced user
    I too think the Fade is awfully weak these days. But I don't see how a buff in movement really takes care of the problem. The fade is either too squishy or has too large a hitbox. The movement buff is not going to change the fact that you can barely stay in a fight long enough to swipe twice against good shooters.

    It seems to me it either needs a health buff or smaller modelsize or perhaps even an entirely new active ability.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,467 Advanced user
    edited February 10
    Regardless of if you like or dislike the hitbox changes, it affected many aspects of the game. UWE almost immediately increased the skulk health. It took some convincing, but UWE also increased lerk health after the hitbox changes. Maybe the fade needs a health increase too.

    One of the more popular suggestions before the lerk health was increased, was to increase the lerk speed. I generally dislike the idea of increasing speed further because more speed increases cases of interp kills and hit reg errors. I am not sure increasing the fades speed would be such a good idea.

    I am not sure if the fades health should be increased either, but that is what UWE did for other lifeforms. I don't play fade. I am only trying to add some reference information to enhance the discussion.

    Here is a quote of the proposal in the UWE balance channel drafted by Ironhorse and myself.
    One of the most discussed balance topics is Onos explosions. This problem stems from multiple recent changes that have affected lifeform accessibility and survivability. The hitreg improvements in b279, the introduction of healthbars, and the increased size of hitboxes have all hurt lifeform survivability significantly. This has increased the difficulty of playing Lerks and Fades for lesser skilled players, hurting lifeform accessibility and therefore pushing players to instead save for the safer to utilize Onos more than they did in the past. By improving the accessibility and survivability of these lifeforms, would reduce the frequency of Onos explosions.

    Of all lifeforms, the Lerk has been affected the most, as their most important role in the round is during a crucial and fragile period where marines are currently dominating precisely due to said changes. There have been a few ideas that would improve Lerk survivability, which in turn would improve accessibility:

    1) Increase lerk eHP from 215 to 240. This would be done with an increase in base HP from 125 to 150. Health per biomass would also be reduced from 3 to 2 so that Lerks are strongest early game. Armor would would be left as is because veterans typically disengage when they run out of armor and NS2 should not increase engagement times, just escaping survivability. This increase in eHP makes its so marines have to land 2 more LMG bullets to kill a lerk.

    2) Better communicate when a lifeform’s armor hits 0. When armor hits zero there should be an audio cue and visual cue. This should lower the skill floor on all lifeforms because more players will know when to disengage.

    3) Fix Lerk animations so that really good Lerks are easier to track and kill - many of these oddities (arguably animation exploits) are what separate average Lerks from really good Lerks.

    Together, these 3 changes should improve accessibility and survivability of Lerks without making strong Lerks even stronger, and hopefully by increasing said viability, will reduce the need and occurrence of Onos explosions.

    UWE only implemented #1. #2 is an incomplete thought. #3 requires a significant amount of work by someone who can work with animations, therefore did not happen.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    Kasharic
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited February 10
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    The fade is either too squishy or has too large a hitbox.
    Why make big targets while still horribly static playermodel animations, in a game like Chivalry MW for eg you duck swings simply by looking down, you actually have some intuitive control of your player model, but not here.

    -You spaz your mouse randomly as a lerk to attempt dodging,
    Game: the animation dampens it
    -Is the skulk jumping?
    Game: a sound effect is a good enough inicator just make sure its obnoxiously loud
    -Is the skulk walljumping or crouch falling while jumping?
    Game: who cares?
    -The skulk is gripping the wall looking forward where should the model be pointing?
    Game: Upward
    -Is the fade crouching in the air?
    Game: who knows, does not matter.

    If they want to ease the beginers feeling of unfairness, start here!

    It will also help more knowledgable players by eradicating broken stuff like this (see? thats what an exploit worth removing looks like)
    WDtDDHu.jpg

    Nordic wrote: »
    Maybe the fade needs a health increase too.
    Do you know not everything can be fixed with "give it more/less HP"
    Post edited by RevanCorana on
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    broken stuff like this (see? thats what an exploit worth removing looks like)
    WDtDDHu.jpg

    That was an easy fix: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1283953867
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 562 Advanced user
    edited February 11
    Well good job thats a start. The point of my previous post wasnt this specific issue tho.
    There arr plenty other unintuitive animation causing disconnect between 1st and 3rd person (mentioned a few). and should probably all have been fixed before making bigger hitboxes.
    with this kind of appreach, seems low effort high reward but garanteed to break more stuff than fix
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,378 Advanced user
    Not even going in the whole old fade movement debate, i just want to remind some folk of bunnyhop in NS1.

    In HL1 it was considered a exploit.
    In NS1 it was considered a exploit at first.
    Then everyone used it.
    Then it became must know for alien.
    Then they patched it sort of so only alien could do it, or marines with catalyst pack. And THIS is the main kicker im trying to make here. They intentionally only tried to patch it out for MARINES. They kept it for aliens so it became intended use. (Probably due to everyone raging otherwise but still.)

    In NS2 similarities exist in this thinking. Some movement was patched out, like the fade movement in question.
    Other movement is still in (like strafing and speed, anyone?). Meaning its either intended or on their 'still need to fix' list.
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  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 139 Advanced user
    Well good job thats a start.

    Not really. It's up to each individual server to run the fix.
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