Assisted Lerk Flapping Mode

IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
I was discussing with others before about the minimum skill required to be effective with lerks and how a majority of the skill required lies within it's movement mechanics, which got me thinking if we could raise the effectiveness of a new or inexperienced lerk without nerfing it in any major way, so presenting my idea for Assisted Lerk Flapping Mode.

Assisted Lerk Flapping Mode is an auto enabled mode(for new players at least) that you can toggle in the options menu, which when a player evolves into a lerk it immediately lifts them up by a relative distance to the floor and keeps the player flapping to maintain that distance. The player can flap additionally to raise elevation and descend using the descend key which overrides auto flapping, they can also glide normally if they so choose, and pressing or holding shift would allow them to attach to a surface or floor if they wish to.

I believe this would give new players a better introduction to the lerk as an aerial lifeform and raise their minimum effectiveness in the battlefield without removing any of the skill or effectiveness in advanced lerk play.
coolitic

Comments

  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    So you want to introduce new players to lerk movement by preventing them from using lerk movement? Is this just a hovars without flapping joke?
    mattji104
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Frozen wrote: »
    So you want to introduce new players to lerk movement by preventing them from using lerk movement? Is this just a hovars without flapping joke?


    No...? The idea behind it was to get them situated into lerk movement from the get go, the only thing this does is rhythmic flapping.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 797 Advanced user
    A better incentive would be to show the "getting hurt" indicator on the HUD if the lork keeps paddling on the ground.
    No HP would be lost, only visual effects, like when hallucinations bite the marines.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    Ground lerk is friend! @Tachi
    coolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,668 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Would this really raise their minimum effectiveness? The difficulty of the movement comes from the erratic evasive maneuvers and knowing when to enter and exit an engagement.

    Simply putting them in the air does not make them more evasive, nor does it help them learn to be evasive, or help them know when and how to engage a marine. I imagine it would make them play like a skulk except a relative distance above the floor. I don't see how that actually helps them learn the basics of lerking. They would die just as fast as they do as a skulk, except they would do it 2 feet in the air after spending 18 pres. As I understand it, this suggestion only helps new players realize they can fly which is so basic I don't think they need help with that.

    I don't like to be so negative, but I do not see how this raises the minimum effectiveness unless they were walking the whole time as a lerk. Maybe others or yourself could elaborate on that.

    In my opinion, the most necessary skill of the lerk is not the evasive maneuvers but how to engage a marine and when to leave. This is the same skill players struggle with as a skulk, lerk, and fade. Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush and your health pool is low compared to your relative size. If we could teach players how to engage better, it would help far more than lerk even though lerk has a few extra requirements.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    .trixX.cooliticNousWanderer
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    I don't like to be so negative, but I do not see how this raises the minimum effectiveness unless they were walking the whole time as a lerk. Maybe others or yourself could elaborate on that.

    I don't have any onhand recordings as proof but I have on occasion shot a lerk to death as he was crawling away from me. My suggestion was simply for them to get a better understanding that the lifeform should be played in the air as opposed to flapping sluggishly in short bursts in as I've seen them do.
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my opinion, the most necessary skill of the lerk is not the evasive maneuvers but how to engage a marine and when to leave. This is the same skill players struggle with as a skulk, lerk, and fade. Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush and your health pool is low compared to your relative size. If we could teach players how to engage better, it would help far more than lerk even though lerk has a few extra requirements.

    Having a low health indicator when a player reaches 40% eHP remaining would help this a lot.
    cooliticIeptBarakatKouji_SanNordic
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    There are a few things which make sense.

    - Most shooter games have that "close to empty clip sound" the emptier it gets.
    - A most recent example, DooM 2016 has that *beep* *beep* when your HP is below a certain point, heck even DooM 3 had this!
    - And we had a mod where the ammo indicator would blink red (now implemented) along with the DooM with a low ammo *beep* *beep*

    For aliens we should have those as well, a low energy and HP warning sound and HUD indicator

    Also we definitely need tutorials like this for Lerk pancakes :tongue:

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" AdminModerator

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    Nintendowscoolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,668 Advanced user
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my opinion, the most necessary skill of the lerk is not the evasive maneuvers but how to engage a marine and when to leave. This is the same skill players struggle with as a skulk, lerk, and fade. Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush and your health pool is low compared to your relative size. If we could teach players how to engage better, it would help far more than lerk even though lerk has a few extra requirements.

    Having a low health indicator when a player reaches 40% eHP remaining would help this a lot.

    Are you sure 40% is the right number? It might work for some lifeforms but not others
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 929 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush...

    I try to ambush as lerk constantly. The difference in ambush here is not by sitting in a corner though (even though I still do that) but in coming in from angles silently the marines can't see me from. Some also refer to this as flanking

    return to zero
    Nordic
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my opinion, the most necessary skill of the lerk is not the evasive maneuvers but how to engage a marine and when to leave. This is the same skill players struggle with as a skulk, lerk, and fade. Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush and your health pool is low compared to your relative size. If we could teach players how to engage better, it would help far more than lerk even though lerk has a few extra requirements.

    Having a low health indicator when a player reaches 40% eHP remaining would help this a lot.

    Are you sure 40% is the right number? It might work for some lifeforms but not others

    It's purely subjective, but it seems to work well in my testing. I've been using it on Siege++ and my MvM server for about 2 months.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,668 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    Mephilles wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush...

    I try to ambush as lerk constantly. The difference in ambush here is not by sitting in a corner though (even though I still do that) but in coming in from angles silently the marines can't see me from. Some also refer to this as flanking

    Well, yes, but I wouldn't call that ambushing. At least it is not at all like the ambushing you would do as a skulk. In my original post, I was describing this behavior you mentioned as how to engage a marine. This is a basic skill that players need to learn on all lifeforms.
    Nordic wrote: »
    I don't like to be so negative, but I do not see how this raises the minimum effectiveness unless they were walking the whole time as a lerk. Maybe others or yourself could elaborate on that.

    I don't have any onhand recordings as proof but I have on occasion shot a lerk to death as he was crawling away from me. My suggestion was simply for them to get a better understanding that the lifeform should be played in the air as opposed to flapping sluggishly in short bursts in as I've seen them do.

    To be fair, I have seen that behavior too. I said my initial post with that behavior in mind.
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    In my opinion, the most necessary skill of the lerk is not the evasive maneuvers but how to engage a marine and when to leave. This is the same skill players struggle with as a skulk, lerk, and fade. Lerk makes it harder because you don't ambush and your health pool is low compared to your relative size. If we could teach players how to engage better, it would help far more than lerk even though lerk has a few extra requirements.

    Having a low health indicator when a player reaches 40% eHP remaining would help this a lot.

    Are you sure 40% is the right number? It might work for some lifeforms but not others

    It's purely subjective, but it seems to work well in my testing. I've been using it on Siege++ and my MvM server for about 2 months.

    Some kind of "YOUR ABOUT TO DIE" indicator should exist. With lerk and fade, you often want to leave long before you even hit that point. I have thought that a good rule of thumb on at least lerk and onos is leaving when you are out of armor.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 253 Advanced user
    edited January 2018
    I see that this is now a prototype card on the dev/bug board: https://trello.com/c/6Bup5p6B/909-flappy-lerk-prototype
    sweets wrote:
    I agree with everything said by Katzenfleisch. Also, it's jarring that when sharking on the ground (holding forward and space) if you want to get another flap it boosts you up in the air. This can have unintended affects where you are boosted upward out of cover. It also feels unnatural compared to the current lerk.
    Please, please don't fuck up the existing lerk mechanics in an attempt to integrate "flappy lerk mode".

    Wrong thread!
    Post edited by NousWanderer on
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    I see that this is now a prototype card on the dev/bug board: https://trello.com/c/6Bup5p6B/909-flappy-lerk-prototype
    sweets wrote:
    I agree with everything said by Katzenfleisch. Also, it's jarring that when sharking on the ground (holding forward and space) if you want to get another flap it boosts you up in the air. This can have unintended affects where you are boosted upward out of cover. It also feels unnatural compared to the current lerk.
    Please, please don't fuck up the existing lerk mechanics in an attempt to integrate "flappy lerk mode".

    "Flappy lerk" as the mod is a very different idea than what this thread is talking about. You can give it a try here and leave feedback for Steelcap on workshop: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1259445997
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,553 mod
    edited January 2018
    There are two main difficulties to learning to lerk:
    1. There are two distinct ways to engage marines as a lerk, in melee with bite or at range with spikes, spores or umbra. An important skill is being able to tell when you should be attacking at range, when you should be attacking in melee, and when to transition between the two.
    2. When a lerk is in the air there's a momentum & predictability to its movement, this makes them easy to track. An important skill is knowing that once you've engaged in combat with a marine you need to spasm about and actively fight against the momentum in a lerk's movement.

    It might actually be useful if the lerk's special movement ability caused your momentum to be dramatically reduced instead of causing you to drop towards the ground - an air brake of sorts.
    Post edited by Mouse on
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Not sure about lerk flapping mode, I dont play lerk much, but theres a similar thing for fade that couldve been added ages ago to make it much easier to learn (less walker fades) WITHOUT reducing skill ceiling and that would be a autohop to basically as long as spacebar is pressed, spam jump whenever inair=false like in arena shooters.
    Because right now you really have to learn every little protrusion of geometry in every map (other classes too but fade more) and there are many
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    I think one of the main barriers to entry for the fade is that you have to constantly be pressing CTRL, W, spacebar, shift, and the A or D keys. That's all 5 of your fingers on one hand just to move around, and you have to shift them around when you press the strafe keys, and that's not counting mouse movements or right-click to blink.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Yes not only do you have more commands to press simultaneously (can bind some to mouse side buttons) but with energy consumption if you want to move efficiently you also have to be able to spam the shit out of your spacebar, because when you go up a ramp/stairs would you rather waste a blink of energy aiming upward or just spam jump which costs no energy at all?


  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,668 Advanced user
    edited February 2018
    Nintendows wrote: »
    I think one of the main barriers to entry for the fade is that you have to constantly be pressing CTRL, W, spacebar, shift, and the A or D keys. That's all 5 of your fingers on one hand just to move around, and you have to shift them around when you press the strafe keys, and that's not counting mouse movements or right-click to blink.

    You don't have to hold control. It does make you a smaller target though. It is not a barrier when it isn't necessary. A fair point though.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 328 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nintendows wrote: »
    I think one of the main barriers to entry for the fade is that you have to constantly be pressing CTRL, W, spacebar, shift, and the A or D keys. That's all 5 of your fingers on one hand just to move around, and you have to shift them around when you press the strafe keys, and that's not counting mouse movements or right-click to blink.

    You don't have to hold control. It does make you a smaller target though.

    For bullets? No.

  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,988 Advanced user
    edited March 2018
    I would like Lerk to be able to glide after taking (jumping) off from the ground. It currently requires two flaps to glide, and flapping once lets the Lerk hover briefly and then fall to the ground, which can confuse new players.

    Lerk air control (when not gliding) feels quite low, as it is less than half of the Fade's. Which is very ironic since Lerk is the one with wings.

    I also find Lerk flight to be highly inconsistent in regard to reward vs skill complexity. Gliding is superior in control and ease of use than constantly flapping, the latter costs much more energy and causes lerk to move in a more predictable way. I wish flapping would help lerk evade fire by changing direction faster than holding glide and waving one's mouse wildly.
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