Bad player or no player? Which is worst?

maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 466 Advanced user
edited January 11 in NS2 General Discussion
Ever notice that people complain about being down 200 hive but if your short a player no one cares? Imagine a 8v9 game with 1800 hive avg, the team with 8 effectively has a 0 hive player so their acctual hive score is 1600. Even worst when your down a player because someone good left so it showes 1700 vs 1800 BUT its really closer to 1500vs1800.

Still wishing that the end of round stats had a skill and player count chart.

Comments

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,427 Advanced user
    edited January 11
    The following link shows a function in wolframalpha that shows the probability of winning given a hive skill difference. A 200 hive skill difference will put the down team at about a 10% chance of winning, at least if I am reading this correctly.

    Not quite what you are looking for, but related.

    Edit: The above function is something Moultono did, not me. I only linked his work.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    VetinaricooliticSupaFred
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 91 Advanced user
    The "hive skill" calculations that are currently in use assume an equal player count.
    Nordic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,331 Advanced user
    Nordic, have I ever told you I love you and your data?

    Other than that, an empty slot has the potential to be filled by a good player. A player slot filled by a bad player does not.
    And bad players can make things worse. Ever had rounds where marines would get up three phase gates, then would clump up around the one in the front and keep suciding into a nearby alien occupied room while aliens took the rest of the map? Of course you did.
    It takes bad players to keep the momentum of these plays up, and that's a bad thing. I'd rather have one player less overall to make these kinds of situations more obviously hopeless so maybe the rest of the team will catch on.
    It's also less frustrating to look at five useless players on your team instead of six.
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  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 816 Advanced user
    a low skill player is better than no player. If we play 9v9 with a low skill player the team elo will drop and therefor hive predicts a different outcome. with 8v9 the teamskill of the 8 member team is higher even though the team is not stronger and therefor hive would predict a bigger likelyhood of the 8 team winning which would mean that the players on that team lose more elo.
    return to zero
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 241 Advanced user
    Another note: As long as the team has issues with the spawnqueue what happens quite often on pubs due to "Lemmingness" the player can have even more negative impact
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,331 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Edit: The above function is something Moultono did, not me. I only linked his work.

    I take everything back.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    Check out my new Balance Mod
    IronHorse
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    Bad player because the no player spot can be filled by someone who isn't bad.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,059 Advanced user
    edited January 11
    G_Lock wrote: »
    Bad player because the no player spot can be filled by someone who isn't bad.

    In short. You can upgrade a player slot by populating it, potentially getting a good or above average player, while there's still a chance for a bad player to spawn in. However you can't upgrade a bad player instantly :tongue:


    But hey, even bad players can be used for cannon fodder and distractions, whereas an empty slot, well is quite absent for anything really :D


    Why no comparison between AFK and bad player, also how bad is this hypothetical player we're talking about here!?

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  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 520 Advanced user
    Even without the possibility of a good player coming in, a bad player can clog your spawn queue, block your shots/movement and expose your location. What do you get from a bad player? A meat shield who probably also doesn't weld?
    G_LockVetinariHandschuh
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 605 Advanced user
    edited January 11
    Vetinari wrote: »
    an empty slot has the potential to be filled by a good player. A player slot filled by a bad player does not.
    And bad players can make things worse.
    G_Lock wrote: »
    Bad player because the no player spot can be filled by someone who isn't bad.


    ^ This is the kind of mentality that leads to innocent people (mostly rookies) being harassed and/or votekicked just because they're a bad player.


    An empty slot is an empty slot, and has just as much potential to be filled by a bad player as by a good one.

    Also the slot taken by the bad player isn't "locked in" as they could potentially leave (or be votekicked) at any time and be replaced by a "good" player. (or another bad one)


    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    Ever notice that people complain about being down 200 hive but if your short a player no one cares? Imagine a 8v9 game with 1800 hive avg, the team with 8 effectively has a 0 hive player so their acctual hive score is 1600. Even worst when your down a player because someone good left so it showes 1700 vs 1800 BUT its really closer to 1500vs1800.

    People just like to complain... You can literally have a game start like this

    Marines - 2400 vs Aliens - 2500...

    15 minutes into the game Marines are clearly winning and someone on Alien leaves, so it changes

    Marines - 2400 vs Aliens - 2200

    7 minutes later the game ends with a Marine victory and people on Alien will point to hive and go "we lost because we were down 200 hivescore the whole game!!!!"


    It's even worse with playercount. Nobody ever cares if the team is down 1 player, yet people freak out like there's no hope of victory if their team is down 2 players for any longer than 30 seconds. Nobody seems to be aware (or care) that autobalance keeps the other team from spawning those extra two players... (If anything being down 2 players HELPS because it keeps 2 people locked in spawn, whereas being 1 player down doesn't trigger autobalance at all)
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    Still wishing that the end of round stats had a skill and player count chart.

    I second that wish. More stats is always nice.
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 99 Advanced user
    ^ This is the kind of mentality that leads to innocent people (mostly rookies) being harassed and/or votekicked just because they're a bad player.

    There's a huge difference between a bad player and someone who just stands in the same spot accomplishing nothing all game trolling their team, bad players aren't kicked, they get yelled at with the proper information to not be bad in that particular scenario. Trolls who do nothing on propose because they feel like they "don't have to do what you tell me" and cripple their team (in a heavily TEAMWORK oriented game) get kicked.

    Calling someone "bad" is not harassment, sorry if you feel like it is. If your sensitive enough to perceive smack/trash talk as harassment internet gaming is not for you.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,427 Advanced user
    edited January 11
    Even after they leave rookie status, the so called bad players greatly outnumber the so called good players.
    1lqiyylpin5f.png

    A bad player is also a highly subjective term. I still consider myself a bad player even though I am technically far above average.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,421 mod
    How many are there in that 4-5,000 range?
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • Vman007Vman007 New York Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Members Posts: 14 Fully active user
    edited January 11
    If its 8 marines vs 9 aliens. Then one alien wont spawn. That alien could be their best player or worst. Also the new player filling the slot could be better or worse. Players leaving multiplayer games is a tale as old as time.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,331 Advanced user
    Vman007 wrote: »
    If its 8 marines vs 9 aliens. Then one alien wont spawn. That alien could be their best player or worst. Also the new player filling the slot could be better or worse. Players leaving multiplayer games is a tale as old as time.

    I think auto balance only kicks in if the difference is two players or more, but I'm not sure. Used to be that way, anyway.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    Check out my new Balance Mod
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,427 Advanced user
    edited January 13
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Vman007 wrote: »
    If its 8 marines vs 9 aliens. Then one alien wont spawn. That alien could be their best player or worst. Also the new player filling the slot could be better or worse. Players leaving multiplayer games is a tale as old as time.

    I think auto balance only kicks in if the difference is two players or more, but I'm not sure. Used to be that way, anyway.

    It is or was server configured. The default is or was two.
    Mouse wrote: »
    How many are there in that 4-5,000 range?
    There are currently 91 players above 4000. There are 5 players above 5000, although Novorei doesn't count because he abused the Hive 1 system to get there.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    Keats
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,421 mod
    It's amazing seeing the degree to which those players can affect a game and carry the team.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • Vman007Vman007 New York Join Date: 2014-01-22 Member: 193411Members Posts: 14 Fully active user
    edited January 12
    Ah ok. server admins should change it to one. That way it always stay even with one person queuing in spawn till one of their teammates dies or another player joins.

    People join and leave any multiplayer game. Which has a negative impact on the said game. And while some games “play now” button would push similar skill players into that empty player slot, NS2 doesn't have enough players clicking on the play now button simultaneously to find an equal level player to put into the slot. So it just puts anyone in that hits the button. Otherwise you would be waiting forever to fill the void with an equal skill player from the person who left.

    Post edited by Vman007 on
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 605 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Even after they leave rookie status, the so called bad players greatly outnumber the so called good players.
    1lqiyylpin5f.png

    A bad player is also a highly subjective term. I still consider myself a bad player even though I am technically far above average.

    So an empty slot actually has a higher chance of being filled by a bad player.


    G_Lock wrote: »
    There's a huge difference between a bad player and someone who just stands in the same spot accomplishing nothing all game trolling their team,

    Of course there is, but we're not talking about trolls here, we're talking about bad players.
    G_Lock wrote: »
    Calling someone "bad" is not harassment

    I never even hinted that it was.. that would be ridiculous.

    Raging at someone who failed to kill an injured Fade by telling them to uninstall and kill themselves, that is harassment.
    Using racial slurs to insult someone is harassment, trying to get them kicked by lying and saying they're doing something they aren't, is harassment.



    Just the other day I saw a rookie get kicked and he wasn't doing anything wrong. (from what I saw he spent most of his time attacking their back res towers) Some elitist jerk just got mad we were losing and decided to blame the rookie. They started by yelling at/insulting them, then they started throwing up vote kicks and lying by saying "afk"... Then when I pointed out that they were not afk, the jerk turned around and lied again by saying "he's been sitting in a corner doing nothing all game" Before I could type out "no he isn't, he's been attacking their res" the vote passed and the rookie was gone.

    It's sad when a player with less than 100 hours gets kicked for "trolling" when they didn't do anything even remotely wrong. Even on a "competitive" server like TGNS his worst possible offense would've been not being able to hear the jerk yelling at him (he probably muted them because they were yelling at people)



  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 466 Advanced user
    Really i just got annoyed when people were complaining about skill balance when The team with the higher skill was short a player... if they had averaged in a imaginary 500 skill player it would have been even.

    But tis true people wana complain....

    I just really want those end of round stats so i can be like “nope, the skill was even until 12 minutes, then you were actually up 200 hive, you wernt down hive/players until 20min, which was after our exis crushed your hive!!!” Not that any one would listen, *sigh*
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,427 Advanced user
    edited January 12
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    I just really want those end of round stats so i can be like “nope, the skill was even until 12 minutes, then you were actually up 200 hive, you wernt down hive/players until 20min, which was after our exis crushed your hive!!!” Not that any one would listen, *sigh*

    Find a modder willing to code it and make a pull request on github https://github.com/sclark39/NS2Plus (or whatever you programmers call it)
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 241 Advanced user
    edited January 12
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Just the other day I saw a rookie get kicked and he wasn't doing anything wrong. (from what I saw he spent most of his time attacking their back res towers) Some elitist jerk just got mad we were losing and decided to blame the rookie. They started by yelling at/insulting them, then they started throwing up vote kicks and lying by saying "afk"... Then when I pointed out that they were not afk, the jerk turned around and lied again by saying "he's been sitting in a corner doing nothing all game" Before I could type out "no he isn't, he's been attacking their res" the vote passed and the rookie was gone.

    It's sad when a player with less than 100 hours gets kicked for "trolling" when they didn't do anything even remotely wrong.

    Since I've seen your incredibly low "mapawareness" several times on pubs, your view might very likely wrong as well... just because you looked at the map and noticed he did something useful, that could still mean he is 90% of the round hiding in a dark place...
    You usually see those kinds of players from time to time who think their hiding is useful... and Yes I've seen them kicked by "normal" players...
    since I wasn't there I don't know, but in my point of view you lost your credibility for those statements long time ago.


    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Even on a "competitive" server like TGNS
    Can't you feel the chills or already hear the snickering while writing that...?
    But maybe you have a different (/naive) opinion what competitive means....

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 520 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Vman007 wrote: »
    If its 8 marines vs 9 aliens. Then one alien wont spawn. That alien could be their best player or worst. Also the new player filling the slot could be better or worse. Players leaving multiplayer games is a tale as old as time.

    I think auto balance only kicks in if the difference is two players or more, but I'm not sure. Used to be that way, anyway.

    It is server configured. The default is two.

    I thought auto balance was disabled a while back?

    Nintendows
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 605 Advanced user
    edited January 12
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Since I've seen your incredibly low "mapawareness" several times on pubs,

    Just out of curiosity I'd love to know how long ago this was, and whether or not I was on Marine.
    Handschuh wrote: »
    your view might very likely wrong as well... just because you looked at the map and noticed he did something useful, that could still mean he is 90% of the round hiding in a dark place...

    You are making assumptions here. I'd point out how I saw him half a dozen times biting back res alongside myself, or mention the score he attained without getting any kills, but I don't see the point since...
    Handschuh wrote: »
    you lost your credibility

    Of course I have... I have an extremely hard time explaining myself, plus I've lost my temper and rage posted from time to time...

    Doesn't mean I'm wrong though.

    The # of people who abuse the votekick system and lie to kick "bad" players is much much higher than anyone around here will admit.

    Some food for thought, if you happened to be one of the 10 people on the other team who voted yes, you would've left that game thinking that a troublemaking troll just got rightfully kicked, when in fact it was a bad player being harassed right under your nose without you ever realizing it.

    Handschuh wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Even on a "competitive" server like TGNS
    Can't you feel the chills or already hear the snickering while writing that...?

    You apparently missed the significance of the quotes... I merely used the word "competitive" for lack of a better term.

    Their rules did make it more of a serious "competitive" atmosphere than what you find in the typical pub server after all.

    I certainly didn't mean to imply that TGNS was an actual competitive server.

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