Combat++
White_Wizard
United States Join Date: 2018-01-01 Member: 234742Members
United States Join Date: 2018-01-01 Member: 234742Members
Hey guys! I've been wanting to work on a mod for NS2 for some time now. Back in October I started thinking that it would be great to bring the combat mode back to NS2. There are many reason why. I know there was quite a big following in the NS1 days. And I know personally that sometimes I just want to login and kill things and not have to worry about all the little nuances of the main game.
Apparently I was not alone in this idea because I came to these forums and found recent posts in the "Combat Mode Relaunch" thread. At the time I had already started some initial work on Combat++. After reading the last few pages of that thread, it seemed like the consensus was that if it were to happen, it would need to be a new mod started from scratch (which is what I had set out to do anyway).
So, I began working on Combat++. I did quite a bit of work back in the fall, took a break and did quite a bit more work on it over the holidays. I'm finally far enough along that I can show off a little bit to the community.
Just a few notes:
- I know there was a NS2: Combat that was released as an official game. I never played it but I have watched lots of youtube videos for inspiration. I feel that it is important that combat mode be reestablished in the main game executable.
- Its been a while (10+) years since I played the NS1 Combat mod so my memory is a little hazy on the fine details. So, if any of the gameplay seems odd or out of place compared to the original, let me know. I'd like to make this as good as I possibly can.
- So far, most of my development has been on gamestate and the Marine team. I'm set to start working on the Aliens next.
- I have several ideas for gameplay tweaks, most of which are tied to the idea of earning skill points for more than just kills.
It would be great to get the community involved. I'd take any help I can get. I just want to see this happen.
The current source code is uploaded on GitHub at the moment. It's still just an early WIP. I'm only about halfway through documenting what I've done thus far.
I have have a little early progress trailer for you guys too. Let me know what you think!
NS2 Combat++ - Early Progress Marine Trailer
Apparently I was not alone in this idea because I came to these forums and found recent posts in the "Combat Mode Relaunch" thread. At the time I had already started some initial work on Combat++. After reading the last few pages of that thread, it seemed like the consensus was that if it were to happen, it would need to be a new mod started from scratch (which is what I had set out to do anyway).
So, I began working on Combat++. I did quite a bit of work back in the fall, took a break and did quite a bit more work on it over the holidays. I'm finally far enough along that I can show off a little bit to the community.
Just a few notes:
- I know there was a NS2: Combat that was released as an official game. I never played it but I have watched lots of youtube videos for inspiration. I feel that it is important that combat mode be reestablished in the main game executable.
- Its been a while (10+) years since I played the NS1 Combat mod so my memory is a little hazy on the fine details. So, if any of the gameplay seems odd or out of place compared to the original, let me know. I'd like to make this as good as I possibly can.
- So far, most of my development has been on gamestate and the Marine team. I'm set to start working on the Aliens next.
- I have several ideas for gameplay tweaks, most of which are tied to the idea of earning skill points for more than just kills.
It would be great to get the community involved. I'd take any help I can get. I just want to see this happen.
The current source code is uploaded on GitHub at the moment. It's still just an early WIP. I'm only about halfway through documenting what I've done thus far.
I have have a little early progress trailer for you guys too. Let me know what you think!
NS2 Combat++ - Early Progress Marine Trailer
Comments
Currently, the only things on the Marine buy menu not implemented are the consumables. The plan right now is to override the 'request med pack', 'request ammo pack', and 'request orders' to use the med pack, ammo pack, and cat pack. These items will persist with the player after they are bought, until used. There will be a visual indicator on the HUD to indicate what consumables the player has in their inventory. I'm still brainstorming on how the scan will work.
Neat. So basically a heal/resupply ammo/scan/inject drugs ability on a somewhat long cooldown?
I haven't decided if there will be the need to introduce a cool down or not. The consumables are purchasable so that should be enough to deter spamming. When I say persist, I mean that once you buy a consumable, it stays with you until used (as opposed to instantly applying it). You would have to buy it again after you've used it. The idea is that you can buy med packs and ammo packs when you spawn (outside of being in the middle of combat) and have them quickly hot keyed for use.
Already tracking. Its not in the video but I've started working on tracking welding the same way damage is tracked. Players will receive xp for welding and healing and there will also be skill point awards for doing 'x' amount of welding or healing in a single life span.
Oh. But why would you ever buy a consumable when you could get a permanent upgrade instead?
Do you get the upgrade points back? Is there an unlimited amount of upgrade points with progressively higher XP requirements? Do your XP reset every time you die?
No, it persists throughout the entirety of the match.
The official combat standalone game radically changed the way many things worked from the core NS2 experience, thus making it useless as a way to practice key things from the core game. That was one reason a lot people liked the original NS2 combat mod so much and the standalone failed, because it was the exact same units /w the same stats and ability's just no com/RTS factors. I suggest you don't go down that road and keep stats, ability's/weapons and movement physics the same as the core game. Things like weapon/ability timings or how you acquire them (points per kill, exp or something of that nature) doesn't matter.
FYI the ns2 combat mod was recently licensed under the MIT license, so you might be able to use some of the code/assets from it: https://github.com/AlexHayton/NS2Combat
Thanks for the advice! I have no plans to change the way the weapons behave or the alien abilities work. I'm basically changing the res system to an xp/skill points system, removing the commander, and rerouting some of the commander specific things (placing and upgrading structures, becons, scans, etc.) and allowing them to be done at the player level by purchasing them with skill points. I don't plan to tweak the balance of the weapons and abilities, so that as NS2 gets patched, those balance tweaks will automatically be reflected in Combat++. I agree with you, combat mode is a great way to practice life forms and such for the main game.
This is great news! Thanks for the heads up!
One of the things you might want to keep in mind is compatibility with other mods. Specifically Shine (for server admins) and NS2+ (for players). I don't see why Shine would be incompatible but you never know. NS2+ for clients is a big deal though, especially if you have the goal to make Combat a "practice mode" for vanilla. NS2+ helps with performance too so that's always nice to have.
It might help to know that the old NS2 combat mod used an automatic timer for scans and medpacks.
Here is an old UWE page about NS, including combat. I never played NS so I can't tell you if this is accurate. http://www.unknownworlds.com/oldwebsite/manuals/Natural_Selection_Manual.html
In your video, the command station is open and displays "Log In". Maybe you want it to always be closed and "occupied"? Same with the hive.
Edit: @White_Wizard did you have a discord account ?
Quoting this for emphasis. Fully agreed.
I was actually just thinking about this yesterday. Which one of these mods is the one that has changes to gamestate (warmup mode, and logic for how the game starts)? I know when I play on servers with those mods that the game start mechanisms (team balance, shuffle, etc.) behave different than vanilla. The reason I ask is because I have to make gamestate logic changes to short-circuit the no commander and no ip checks and so forth. I think that might possibly conflict.
If that's the case, we may have to do a fork of the NS2+ or Shine code and do one specific for Combat++. Or is there a way to do some sort of compatibility mod? I will however do my best to not conflict with those mods. I would very much like to see them running along side Combat++. They both have GitHub repos correct? I'll take a look at them and try not step on any toes if possible.
Thanks for that resource/reference.
This is great, thanks! Is the code in a GitHub repo or something like that?
My discord is WhiteWizard#0548
It's an inherently snowbally mechanic that the original combat mod suffered from as well. Not only is it anti-rookie, just because they get crushed that way, it's also somewhat anti-social, because it introduces the concept of "feeding". It's frustrating to be dragged down by a team mate that seems to just die over and over without contributing. This is especially a poor design philosophy for a game that proport to be a good "training" tool, because if you pick a lifeform you are not familiar with, you risk feeding the opponent.
So what I'd suggest is maintain the spirit of NS2, and predicate the points players gain through secondary objectives, instead of frags. For example, keep resource towers in the game, have the players cap RT's in order to gain personal resources. This way, the top fragger, who is likely also the best player on the server, won't also be the best geared fueling the snowball. Instead you are progressing based on your teams progress.
You will still have the 'jump in, frag, jump out" nature of combat. But suddenly you allow teamplay, you allow strategy, you allow yourself to play a weaker lifeform without feeding the opponent and ruining the game for your team mates. All this without necessarily taking away from the fragging.
It is more work I imagine though, but I think it will be a much better mode for it in more ways than one.
Sure that screams ns2 but that isn't necessarily better than what was already there.
So the goal here is not to solve snowballing, that's fundamentally impossible without compromising the level system. But that does not mean that it doesn't matter HOW it snowballs. So yea, it's trading one snowball for another, that's precisely the point. It matters which aspect of the game you decide to reward. Attempting to "solve" snowballing would be a fool's errand as far as I can tell.
I remember seeing the suggestion about using RTs in Combat Mode somewhere else on these forums. I'm not opposed to this type of game play mechanic but it is quite a change from the original mode. Perhaps that's a good thing. I was hoping to try and take some sort of middle ground. I'd like to respect the ideas introduced in the original mode but maybe fix some of the shortcomings like you are alluding to. But I'd like to do that by introducing some team play mechanics without making it too much like 'base NS2 minus commanders'. I'm always open to suggestions on what those improvements should be.
Just to bring it home though. RTs are not the core of my suggestion. Any type of secondary objective (SO) will do the trick.
I'll just add that SOs have this neat property of being able to direct the battles to different areas. If there are no SO, you tend to just meet in the center of the map and duke it out. That isn't necessarily bad, but good SOs seem to really enhance the maps and add a sense of variety in the games.
RTs are just a familiar type of SO, but you could make it what ever you want. Like a bomb plant ala Cstrike? Idk
Combat standalone tried to fix this issue with a more aggressive catch-up mechanic and the "random XP" drops, but it doesn't make up for it enough and it feels pretty unfair for the game to just rubber band player XP because you're ahead of them.
I think it could work something like this. Each XP award type has a base value. Then we factor in an RT count and an RT count modifier. The RT count modifier would be to balance how much the XP scales for each RT controlled.
I was thinking you could potentially have a system where xp is granted for distance travelled too, adjusted for each lifeform/marine of course.
This would prevent marines from camping base at the beginning because aliens would be able to just roam the map doing nothing but moving and they would out-xp the marines... so the marines have to actively chase down and kill the aliens.
I definitely like the idea of capping RTs though, that is a really nice idea and I would love to see how it would work out!
I'm not a fan of adding some big res tower element to vanilla combat just for the sake of camping marines, but in general adding res towers would definately spice up combat.
There was a territory combat mod for NS1 Combat, which added some res nodes to maps, but I can't really find much info about it now.
Everyone will just go adadadawedasdawdasdasdawdasdadadadaddwsdasdawswswsadadadadasdsdwwswsadsasdawdasdadwwadadad in base.