Stupid Initial Building Strategies
NinjaBurger
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9931Members
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Avoid common mistakes</div> You know the skulk rush is coming. It always comes.
Inevitably, what gets dropped is:
2 Spawn Portals
Armory
Turret Factory
2-27 Turrets
Usually in that order.
Evaluating those choices:
2 Spawn Portals - necessary, of course, because if they get in and eat your marines and cc, you lose in the first minute of gameplay. Placement is more important than anything here. Newbie comms typically drop these any old place, usually right next to one another. This makes them vulnerable to rushes, splash attacks, etc. A better idea would be to drop one, then after the first rush, drop the other somewhere further away. Obviously, they have to be close to one another, but that doesn't mean they have to be Siamese Twin Spawn Portals.
Armory - No No No No No. Armory is necessary, yes. But as one of the first things you build before the rush? No way. Dropping the armory means the marines are immediately thinking "ammo!" and they tend to lose their focus. Now they have to build it, and then they all spend 15 seconds huddled around it clicking for ammo like rats pressing a lever to dispense food. When's the last time you, as a marine, had a chance to use up more than 100 rounds from the LMG during the initial rush? And even if you somehow manage to do that, what about your pistol? Point being, you don't need an armory for the initial rush. It's a distraction. It should wait until the first rush is over, and quite possibly until the second rush is over, depending on how well your marines conserve ammo.
Turret Factory - Necessary because you need your marines to move out ASAP, and you need the base protected. So yes, drop it, please. But for god's sake, be smart about where you put it. First one in early game should probably be in the middle of the floor, so you can cover it with turrets easily and keep skulks from chewing it. Later, to prevent Fades from splashing it with acid, you'll want to build a second redundant Factory off to one side, out of the range of easy splashes. But for now, you want to keep skulks from gnawing it, and that means visibility. You put it off to one side and you give a skulk a place to eat.
2-27 Turrets - More than 3 is unnecessary at this stage. You want to keep Skulks from eating things, not shoot down passing spacecraft. If your TF is centered properly, you can cover the factory with 2 turrets, with a third to cover the blind spot behind your Command Console. But this implies that you placed the turrets correctly. Dumbest place to put them is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. Stupid. Skulks can almost always rush past them and get in, and if they're smart they can quickly find the blind spots. Turrets in front of a door will almost never dissuade skulks from entering your base. So assume they will get in. Now you have to cover the base. So spread the turrets out. With a broader range of fire, you can cover more area with fewer turrets. One on either side of the factory, and then a third behind the CC.
With this your base should be fairly well covered. Another good idea, however, is to keep one marine back and give him some mines. Intelligent mine placement (3 mines per door and maybe one on the floor) will keep skulks out at a very low cost. Remember, the enemy can't afford anything more than a skulk or gorge at this point, so anything more than defense against skulks is overkill and a waste of resources. You could be spending that money on upgrades, or an observation tower, instead of dozens of turrets.
At this point you'll send marines out for resources and/or a hive, so during the secondary building phase (post skulk rush), you should focus on improving your marines ability to survive what's coming. That means an armory (yes, NOW you do it, not during the rush), a phase gate for backup, and the oft-forgotten observatory.
So build order as I see it (with some leeway) is:
GAME START
infantry portal
turret factory
SKULK RUSH 1 COMES
2-3 turrets (depending on map)
infantry portal
SKULK RUSH 2 COMES
armory
mines (for the builder in the base)
SEND MARINES OUT
observatory
upgrades
Yes, everyone gets nervous when they see the armory doesn't show up until after the second rush, but really, half the marines will die in the first rush and respawn with full ammo anyway, and those who survive have plenty of ammo (100 in the LMG and 20 in the pistol) to fend off two rushes. If they can't, 100 extra rounds of ammo is not going to keep them alive any longer.
Thoughts?
Inevitably, what gets dropped is:
2 Spawn Portals
Armory
Turret Factory
2-27 Turrets
Usually in that order.
Evaluating those choices:
2 Spawn Portals - necessary, of course, because if they get in and eat your marines and cc, you lose in the first minute of gameplay. Placement is more important than anything here. Newbie comms typically drop these any old place, usually right next to one another. This makes them vulnerable to rushes, splash attacks, etc. A better idea would be to drop one, then after the first rush, drop the other somewhere further away. Obviously, they have to be close to one another, but that doesn't mean they have to be Siamese Twin Spawn Portals.
Armory - No No No No No. Armory is necessary, yes. But as one of the first things you build before the rush? No way. Dropping the armory means the marines are immediately thinking "ammo!" and they tend to lose their focus. Now they have to build it, and then they all spend 15 seconds huddled around it clicking for ammo like rats pressing a lever to dispense food. When's the last time you, as a marine, had a chance to use up more than 100 rounds from the LMG during the initial rush? And even if you somehow manage to do that, what about your pistol? Point being, you don't need an armory for the initial rush. It's a distraction. It should wait until the first rush is over, and quite possibly until the second rush is over, depending on how well your marines conserve ammo.
Turret Factory - Necessary because you need your marines to move out ASAP, and you need the base protected. So yes, drop it, please. But for god's sake, be smart about where you put it. First one in early game should probably be in the middle of the floor, so you can cover it with turrets easily and keep skulks from chewing it. Later, to prevent Fades from splashing it with acid, you'll want to build a second redundant Factory off to one side, out of the range of easy splashes. But for now, you want to keep skulks from gnawing it, and that means visibility. You put it off to one side and you give a skulk a place to eat.
2-27 Turrets - More than 3 is unnecessary at this stage. You want to keep Skulks from eating things, not shoot down passing spacecraft. If your TF is centered properly, you can cover the factory with 2 turrets, with a third to cover the blind spot behind your Command Console. But this implies that you placed the turrets correctly. Dumbest place to put them is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. Stupid. Skulks can almost always rush past them and get in, and if they're smart they can quickly find the blind spots. Turrets in front of a door will almost never dissuade skulks from entering your base. So assume they will get in. Now you have to cover the base. So spread the turrets out. With a broader range of fire, you can cover more area with fewer turrets. One on either side of the factory, and then a third behind the CC.
With this your base should be fairly well covered. Another good idea, however, is to keep one marine back and give him some mines. Intelligent mine placement (3 mines per door and maybe one on the floor) will keep skulks out at a very low cost. Remember, the enemy can't afford anything more than a skulk or gorge at this point, so anything more than defense against skulks is overkill and a waste of resources. You could be spending that money on upgrades, or an observation tower, instead of dozens of turrets.
At this point you'll send marines out for resources and/or a hive, so during the secondary building phase (post skulk rush), you should focus on improving your marines ability to survive what's coming. That means an armory (yes, NOW you do it, not during the rush), a phase gate for backup, and the oft-forgotten observatory.
So build order as I see it (with some leeway) is:
GAME START
infantry portal
turret factory
SKULK RUSH 1 COMES
2-3 turrets (depending on map)
infantry portal
SKULK RUSH 2 COMES
armory
mines (for the builder in the base)
SEND MARINES OUT
observatory
upgrades
Yes, everyone gets nervous when they see the armory doesn't show up until after the second rush, but really, half the marines will die in the first rush and respawn with full ammo anyway, and those who survive have plenty of ammo (100 in the LMG and 20 in the pistol) to fend off two rushes. If they can't, 100 extra rounds of ammo is not going to keep them alive any longer.
Thoughts?
Comments
These things are situational.
I have no idea why comms don't drop mines more often in the early game.
I'd use mines more but I never have marines ask for them. since they are not something I use at all I don't drop them because then they are used randomly. Though I have seen some intersting mine setup by skilled marines.
Drop the skulk rush...load up...move out. You shouldn't be in the spawn for any longer then 2 minutes...EVER. If you are then those couple skulks are locking you in your spawn while thier gorges enjoy the ability to control the whole map enemie free. Get out of the spawn...control some nodes...get some RP's...start locking down the map. When you start to turtle up, you are surrending the map to the aliens. You handicape yourself out of the gate.
That was basically my point. I don't consider 2 turrets and mines to be turtling up. The point in doing that is to allow the marines to move out, while giving the cc some basic protection so the commander doesn't have to jump out of the console to deal with skulks. Every time I've seen him jump out, he dies.
1 portal
1 TF
3 turrets
2nd portal
For me, it's all about getting a few turrets up, as most players cannot defend a base to save their lives (which I guess it would do, if you think about it...).
2 spawn portals off the bat.
Armory.
2 packs of mines to the least-dumb player
Observatory.
Motion tracking.
With one marine back defending/building the whole time.
As soon as the first hive is secured, I come back for turrets, arms lab and all that junk in main. I find One marine with mine defense to be much more effective, and MUCH more efficient than 3 turrets and a Tfac.
82 RP's turrets is of much higher cost than One marine+16 RP's mines.
- 2x IPs
- 1x armory
- 1 x tf
- as many turrets as the comm needs to feel safe.
The timeline is roughly:
IPx2 started & finished
Skulk rush starts
1/2 marines dead, other 1/2 low on ammo. [sometimes better, sometimes worse - but that is what I would reliably count on.]
** at this point, without an armory your marines are confined to base. They cannot realistically secure a hive low on ammo. [I typically use 1+ clip getting there, and then 1-2 clips before phase gate is up] (and switching weapons with dead marines is a *bad* idea - they always seem to have 10 bullets left <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->).
A TF really isn't the most important piece of kit at this stage anyway:
- if you take the hive, the skulks will be much more interested in it than your base.
- you have all the respawning marines to defend the base from skulks, who will respawn slowly and tend to attack individually/hide outside the base.
- a TF is pointless without a few (4?) turrets, and even with 4 they aren't *that* good.
I see no harm in getting the armoury first before the TF.
1 IP,
1 Armory,
1 Observatory.
Scan for hives, upgrade motion tracking.
If i can't rely on my marines to down a skulk rush, I've still got my distress signal. Then I have a few camp base and the rest ready to pillage hives and resource nozzles.
Whenever I don't command, I lose a lot of respect for the comm when they start with a turret factory after portal. It tells me that they assume turrets are better defence than marines, and that we'll move out when our comm is secure with our base defences (which could be a while). Meanwhile, hives are getting built.
Note, not all comms are like this and quickly redeem themselves one way or another, but I really hate seeing any turrets over used, especially on a resource node that is nowhere near a hive.
I prefer spending it on phase gates and praying my marines know something. They tend to know a little more these days.
This strategy also nullifies any use of cloaking by aliens who want to be different than all the public servers. It also helps us track the fatties and slow their resource gathering. In my opinion, much more useful than a few turrets.
I don't believe that an all-active defence can be working forever, once the Xeno's get fades, they will pretty much rip up any marines they are up against.
firstly i'm heavily into the 2 hive rush (don't have to defend against fades if they dont got em) and secondly i absolutely hate rambo's and jackasses
so my build order is 1 inf port, 1 turret fac, 3 turrets (2 covering fac 1 on chair) then rush off to a hive and build the armory there
probably not the best on a pub server where you can't get people to hear your orders over the whining, but when it works it's fun to watch the clued in people start butchering aliens while the jackasses are still whining in the base <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the biggest problem with an armory in the base (pub servers anyway) is that all the marines tend to instantly flock around it and hump it for half the game to try and get that extra clip that they'll never use. this lines em up real good for the skulk rush and stops them being useful.
now that i think about it, i really shouldn't command, i hate marines too much :/
2 IPs
1 Observatory
1 ammo fact
Then when resources permit, go for TF and turrets. Personally I think marines make better defense than turrets so I usually place a couple at home base to defend.
1: go around them, over them ect.
2: Run as fast as they can through them, and probably surviving because of the explosion delay
3: Wait untill a Marine walks outside then set the mines off taking some one out with them
4: Just Suicide Charge into the mines plowing the path for more skulks
Fades, Onos, and Gorges are the only things big and slow enough for mines to affect.
Fades Shoot them.
Gorges are NOT going to be attacking your base
Onos ignore the damage
Conclusion: Mines are generaly a waste of resorces when fighting Kaharra
Edit: O ya, i agree with the Build Order exept for mines.
He who hesitates (to secure a hive) is lost.
If a skulk sees a corridor with a few mines in he has to slow down to plan his route rather than just bolt straight through.
I often only see mines given out during the final marine battle when the comm is getting worried and starts handing out anything he can afford. If you ask for mines at the start of the game two or three people usually reply that mines are worthless.
Mines are cheap and good. Commanders, give them out. Marines, learn how to use them effectively at the start of the game.
1 IP,
1 Armory,
1 Observatory.
Scan for hives, upgrade motion tracking.
If i can't rely on my marines to down a skulk rush, I've still got my distress signal. Then I have a few camp base and the rest ready to pillage hives and resource nozzles.
Whenever I don't command, I lose a lot of respect for the comm when they start with a turret factory after portal. It tells me that they assume turrets are better defence than marines, and that we'll move out when our comm is secure with our base defences (which could be a while). Meanwhile, hives are getting built.
Note, not all comms are like this and quickly redeem themselves one way or another, but I really hate seeing any turrets over used, especially on a resource node that is nowhere near a hive.
I prefer spending it on phase gates and praying my marines know something. They tend to know a little more these days.
This strategy also nullifies any use of cloaking by aliens who want to be different than all the public servers. It also helps us track the fatties and slow their resource gathering. In my opinion, much more useful than a few turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man is a genius. I suggest you all use this tactic once or twice.
That being said, getting motion tracking can completely rule aliens.
Gorges cant hide, skulks cant ambush, aliens = meat.
In short, obs+motion tracking > tfac and 2-3 turrets.
One skulk, or maybe two beats a tfac and 2-3 turrets. Your "decent" marines will ALMOST NEVER die once you get motion tracking.
One dedicated marine with competent aim, motion tracking, and a few mines at key entries is MORE than enough to secure your main base from skulks until you can secure a hive and enough res so that a few turrets as insurance won't severly deplete your stocks.
At all times, but especially in the early game, giving your tropps advantages over the marines is infinitely more effective and cheap than building turret farms.