MARINE JUMP broken since today's patch

BauerJankinsBauerJankins GERMANY, WASHINGTON Join Date: 2016-04-14 Member: 215772Members Posts: 6 Fully active user
Hello I am really sad because your patch broke the mechanic most dear to me in this game - marine movement.

The problem is as follows: your marine, since today's patch, now always makes sounds on the initial jump. You can be standing still or moving, crouched or standing up, you will always make noise on the INITIAL JUMP. Here I need to clarifiy, since a lot of people are having trouble understanding my concerns, there are 2 different sounds connected to jumping: the sound you make when you press space, right as you lift off; and the sound you make when you land on the ground. Those two are very different in terms of impact on the game and in their ways of reproducing them.

The way it used to be you could do a lot of SILENT jumps, moving around the map SILENTLY, for example speeding up movement in vents, jumping up props, and basically just getting places you'd otherwise not get to, faster than just crouching, and that silently. There is more to this than just the initial jumping mechanic, the way you land factors in a lot whether or not you make noise with a jump, but that is not something I want to write an article about right now.
I really just want to put this out there right now and see if the devs have anything to say to this, if this is an intentional or unintentional change and see if we can get some answers.

Because the way this is right now I can't play the game if yet another skill-mechanic is just SILENTLY taken out of the game by the devs, whether it was intentional or not.
KasharicKeatsGoldenValoHandschuhTyrwingThe_Welsh_WizardydydevelNintendows

Comments

  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,006 Advanced user
    edited August 25
    Yea I exploited the silent crouch jump a lot. Honestly; Good riddance.

    Marines are already WAY too mobile as it is. As for "skill-mechanic". Give me a fucking break. It consists of you holding crouch and +forward and then jump and time a +back. This is a trick that relies on having that exclusive knowledge, it's not a difficult skill mechanic. And I don't really think it should have a place even if it was super difficult to pull off.

    I say good riddance, even though it's gonna affect my play.
    ydyThe_Welsh_WizarddevelMe9aTriggerHappyBroNintendows
  • BauerJankinsBauerJankins GERMANY, WASHINGTON Join Date: 2016-04-14 Member: 215772Members Posts: 6 Fully active user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    As for "skill-mechanic". Give me a fucking break. It consists of you holding crouch and +forward and then jump and time a +back. This is a trick that relies on having that exclusive knowledge, it's not a difficult skill mechanic.

    Because moving around the map silently by exploting movement (which is more than always JUST jumping around with W and sfopping midair) is not skilled xddd
    Because pulling off certain jumps aliens wouldnt expect you to isn't skilled xddd
    Because sneaking should be completely removed as a whole right? Xd
    SantaClaws
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,120 admin
    edited August 25
    So.. to preface, this was definitely an unintentional fix that occurred from fixing another bug:
    "* Fixed that the damage taken/flinch sound effects didn’t play after the first time. We are planning to redo the complete flinch sound system in one of the next builds to make the damage feeback more consistent."

    You can now hear continued pain sounds from first person and in the world, when taking multiple hits from Hydras or lerk spikes etc. Previously it would only play once.
    As mentioned in the changelog, there are still many issues with damage sounds that we've identified and it will require a refactor on how the flinch/sound system works. (this is planned)
    _____________________________________________

    In fixing this, we obviously fixed other items unintentionally that have existed for a long time such as this hidden mechanic.

    In short: If this bug is desirable and creates a bit of depth or more interesting play, we can re-incorporate it into the game in a proper manner.
    This essentially means : communicated or observable and thus more likely to be discovered by your average player, more than likely through revised animations and other means.

    EDIT: to clarify.. since the results of crouch jump is the same whether you crouch immediately or 20 ms into a jump, (as opposed to HL1 movement) this means that you can press crouch at the same time as jump and we can use this to nullify the initial sound made. And since crouch jump is used most often in the scenarios you provided (vents, props, getting up higher to places) it makes sense to make it so only crouch jumping allows for the silent execution - but the animation will have to look notably different, since currently jumping and crouch jumping play the same animation..

    If that's good enough for all of you then read no further.
    If you'd like more of a lengthy rant or reasoning behind the decision:

    While we obviously wish to encourage skillful movement mechanics that lend to depth in NS2, we are against hidden mechanics that only serve to divide the skill gap, that are often only discovered through word of mouth and by no other means.

    We support clearly communicated or observable mechanics that therefore can be intuitive or learned through experience, especially against other players.
    Walljumping was initially a bug.. but it allowed for some interesting depth and was highly observable for all to see and learn from, and thus felt like a good fit.
    The same can be said about bunnyhopping in Quake, whereas it was unintentional and began as an exploit it quickly became the defacto means of movement.

    Now, I really wish to distinguish between observable, intuitive, and/or communicated skillful mechanics that lend to depth vs hidden ones.
    • One can argue that the advantages from strafing as a skulk when walljumping is a hidden mechanic, but I'd argue that it's pretty close to being an intuitive step to come to, seeing as how strafing has been used in bunny hopping games since the beginning, and one can quickly figure out that it contains a bit of additional movement control. So it's not a stretch to assume that a player could naturally learn this over time.. even though the realistic statistics on this probably aren't that promising. It's when it's not intuitive or observable though that it becomes a real problem.
    • For example: If I knew that dropping my rifle at an exact point while reloading, while also pressing E and the ESC key at the same time somehow gave me a (barely noticeable to others) 20% increase in damage... and I told no one about it, that would be an unintended hidden knowledge mechanic that requires zero skill, is not intuitive, contains no depth and that I can exploit and abuse. It doesn't make me smart, it makes me an exploiter, and it's incredibly unfair. No one benefits from this except those very few in the know. It's not skilled or intuitive whatsoever, and isn't much different than "skybox walking" except that its far far more hidden and unobserved than that, and thus that much more harmful.
    • Now, conversely, if I discovered that crouching and looking down at a 30 degree angle while also strafing right provided a +2 max speed increase to my Lerk.. I'd begin to start to see that as possibly intuitive and requiring a bit of skill, seeing as how we know from normal flight looking down and crouching increases speed and more than likely after time others would even begin to notice this trick when playing against it. So it's something most could easily stumble upon/ is intuitive, and requires mechanical skill to pull off in situations that you need it the most, as well as being highly observable. Because of all this we'd be much more friendly to allowing such a thing to exist, even if unintended.

    When knowledge or awareness of a hidden mechanic is the only defining threshold to get an advantage, we as a team consider it a damaging thing and worth fixing and/or communicating to others if it's to stay.
    The skill should be in mastering the mechanic that lends depth, not relying on being friends with the specific person who informs you of said mechanic.




    I hope that helps explain a bit of the reasoning behind the decision to keep the unintended mechanic, but modified to be more observable.
    If you have any further questions on the topic feel free to ask in our discord, as I no longer frequent these forums unless it's a technical support issue, but was asked to respond to this thread as it appears to be an important issue for some. Thanks everyone for bringing up this matter and approaching it in a friendly manner.
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    TriggerHappyBro
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members Posts: 348 Advanced user
    Good fix.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,006 Advanced user
    Because pulling off certain jumps aliens wouldnt expect you to isn't skilled xddd
    Because sneaking should be completely removed as a whole right? Xd

    Trick jumps are great. I love trick jumps. But don't make them SILENT!

    Sneaking should not be completely removed - you should just sneak in the intended movement speed instead of exploiting a bug.
    Nintendows
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 177 Advanced user
    edited August 25
    To clarify things:
    Before the patch when marines did the crouchjump the marine heard nothing and the alien could hear it BUT this sound was significantly more silent so it was easy to overhear and gave more depth for sneaking...

    I once tested it out with someone else and the range was significantly less than a normal jump sound



    For me it would be fine to hear the crouchjump if the sound would be more silent!

    It's a nice feature because it is still hearable!
    Post edited by Handschuh on
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 514 Advanced user
    Solution 3: embrace but overhaul what was present, that means make landing noise volume scale with vertical speed and take off noise volume scale with lateral speed. No more obscure feature and the original idea is conserved and streamlined
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