Water Filtration Really needs a speed buff

mikeloevenmikeloeven Join Date: 2017-04-14 Member: 229623Members Posts: 82 Advanced user
edited July 2017 in Ideas and Suggestions
I know that people will immediately pop up screaming balance and difficulty and thus came prepared (holds up giant whack-a-mole mallet with SCIENCE written on it).

There is a major problem in the timing of the water filtration system. Just googling the numbers for a small reverse osmosis filter such as would be used for a home aquarium, you still get a flow rate of about 50 gallons per day which is already a heck of a lot more than the player would ever need. the filtration system used in the survival habitats is several times larger than those home systems would produce alot more water a heck of alot faster.

Additionally a machine that size would have a lot more storage space for water and salt than the UI allows (why is the machine even generating salt deposits in the first place most RO systems just backflush the concentrated brine out of the system).

With the power grid issues in the most recent experimental build it is completely impossible to run keep running multiple filtration systems even with a very robust power grid as the power requirements will drain a 5k power grid rapidly. (Prior to voice of the deep I was running 4 filtration machines off this grid with no problems)

Something's gotta give here and i hope this will be fixed in the future but for now ill be using the filterfast console command completely guilt free cause the devs broke my existing sytem.
gamer1000kTarkannenHunterG22

Comments

  • jamintheinfinite_1jamintheinfinite_1 Jupiter Join Date: 2016-12-03 Member: 224524Members Posts: 1,062 Advanced user
    edited July 2017
    Wow, it still has dang power issues?
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    ShuttleBugrosawalton
  • gamer1000kgamer1000k Join Date: 2017-04-29 Member: 230121Members Posts: 313 Advanced user
    The whole water purifier system doesn't make any sense to me either with how slow and inefficient it is. This seems to be a case of the devs using it as a placeholder power sink and had to make it use obscene amounts of energy given how little else there is in a base to use the energy.

    Hopefully with the new power balance they'll bring some sanity to this.
  • TarkannenTarkannen North Carolina Join Date: 2016-08-15 Member: 221304Members Posts: 669 Advanced user
    What also bugs me about the WFM, in addition to the severe delay in item creation (it should take no more than 4 hours game-time to process one bottle of water) and the fact it uses so much power (do you really need a friggin nuclear reactor just to split salt from water? :pensive: But also for the fact of where this process all takes place: in a saltwater ocean. When you swim around, the water is mostly clear - that is to say, it's not hazy or has 'chunks' of substance in it. That means that the water we swim around (and in fact, what the flora and fauna on 4546B thrive in) consists more of water than that of salt. According to a report from the National Weather Service:
    Sea water salinity is expressed as a ratio of salt (in grams) to liter of water. In sea water there is typically close to 35 grams of dissolved salts in each liter. It is written as 35‰ The normal range of ocean salinity ranges between 33-37 grams per liter (33‰ - 37‰).

    So on average, there is a higher water ratio than a salt ratio. In gameplay terms, this means that water should be created faster and more frequently than that of salt. Now you could go on to counter "But bruh! It's an alien ocean, who knows WHAT its made of?" But hydrogen and oxygen (water), and sodium and chloride (salt) are some of the most common elements in the universe. Even in a gameplay setting, you have to take realism into approach that the WFM just shouldn't operate like it does at present. (Unless perhaps, it's part of Alterra's line of stellar quality products...)

    Talking again about the above poster's point that it takes days (gametime) to even produce one bottle of water, goes to show that both the WFM runs too slowly, and yet again, the game days just run by too quickly. I love this game and appreciate all the work UWE are doing on it! But with 1.0 coming up sooner than later, they really should look into adding more common sense realism to the game. Even though it's "just a game" and there should be Acceptable Breaks From Reality, this is one point of contention that really gets to me. :neutral:
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  • mikeloevenmikeloeven Join Date: 2017-04-14 Member: 229623Members Posts: 82 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    The thing I always say to game developers is that you can make a game as unrealistic as you want as long as your creative and you can make a game as difficult as you want as long as the gameplay remains intuitive. when devs keep falling back on power/material/time sinks in such a way that degrades the game-play that's when you get complaints
    Tarkannen
  • Timelord_FredTimelord_Fred Join Date: 2017-07-05 Member: 231596Members Posts: 264 Advanced user
    Your science hammer doesn't apply here. This is a game. Science should be cast aside for gameplays sake. The filtration machine is a cheap way to permanently solve the water problem once you unlock it early-mid game. It's supposed to cost a high (but not insane as seen in experimental) power cost. This helps to encourage the player to move to other sources of power than solar but give them a way to deal with water without having a bladder fish farm. I didn't even consider bio reactors untill I built my first filtration machine and lost all power one night. It might be more acceptable to rebalancing the recipe (how do you get a water filter out of titanium alone?) And make a more efficient version to replace this one, or make an upgraded version. Perhaps put these fragments in the Dunes wreck
    leenpowellLulzesjamintheinfinite_1
  • mikeloevenmikeloeven Join Date: 2017-04-14 Member: 229623Members Posts: 82 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    Never went nuclear but how would one of those compare to the reactor on say a modern day sub ?? I am pretty sure those rods last a long time. Not sure how long nuclear rods last in subnautica because according the power estimates on the subnautica wiki each rod only has 10k energy. I dont think any of the numbers on the wiki are updated or accurate for the experimental builds and info for the experimental builds doesn't exist or is extremely hard to find
  • leenpowellleenpowell Join Date: 2017-07-19 Member: 231926Members Posts: 26 Advanced user
    I disagree on the speed buff for the sheer fact that it is unnecessary. Realism aside, there are numerous ways to get bottled water in the game. Use the salt from the machine to make even more if you need to. Speeding up the machine will just make other ways of getting water obsolete and drinking more of a chore than a mechanic that needs to be balanced out.

    How many people actually die from starvation or dehydration in this game? Once you've built an adequate base, even early on, you can build some indoor plots and grow some melons. The growth rate is unrealistically fast so it'll cover your water needs. Use that while you farm resources to and from your base, occasionally emptying your filtration machine and storing the water. That way, when you want to go on a long mission away from base, you can bring water with you that can't spoil.
  • TarkannenTarkannen North Carolina Join Date: 2016-08-15 Member: 221304Members Posts: 669 Advanced user
    @Timelord_Fred Well see, I'm actually happy with the current values of the WFM. It should take a long time to make water (else it would be trivial to die of thirst) and it should take a lot of power to do so (again, risk/reward tradeoff). What I'm unhappy with is how quickly the day and night passes by in the game. It takes about ten minutes real-time for a full "24 hours" to pass in game, which makes it take almost four days of game-time to make one bottle of water. That's what breaks immersion for me. If they were to slow down the passage of time to a more reasonable amount, then the game's flow would be better paced.

    Also while we're on the subject, why does the WFM take such a long time to work its magic? I mean, I know it's for gameplay balance, but think about it from the Alterra perspective. We have technology to instantly craft bottles of water, lubricant and bleach from a Fabricator - as well as more technologically dense items. Handheld tools with computer chips, personal vehicles and elaborate building structures can be built in mere seconds in real-time... or just a minute in game-time. If technology is so precise and reliable for that... why does the WFM take days in-game to just make one measly bottle of water?

    I'm sure someone will point out that the machine itself is filtering water as it gets it, and it's not molecular technology like what the Fabricator uses. But why isn't it? The Fabricator can immediately cauterize a Bladderfish, extract the water from its body in an instant, and it's instantly purified. Why then does the WFM take so long to do what it does? Why not just increase its water flow, laser out its impurities (we don't really need salt anyways) and filter it the same way the Fabricator does with everything else it processes?

    Alterra sure likes to pick-and-choose how their technology decides to work and adhere to logic, it seems to me. :pensive:
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  • gamer1000kgamer1000k Join Date: 2017-04-29 Member: 230121Members Posts: 313 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    Your science hammer doesn't apply here. This is a game. Science should be cast aside for gameplays sake. The filtration machine is a cheap way to permanently solve the water problem once you unlock it early-mid game. It's supposed to cost a high (but not insane as seen in experimental) power cost. This helps to encourage the player to move to other sources of power than solar but give them a way to deal with water without having a bladder fish farm. I didn't even consider bio reactors untill I built my first filtration machine and lost all power one night. It might be more acceptable to rebalancing the recipe (how do you get a water filter out of titanium alone?) And make a more efficient version to replace this one, or make an upgraded version. Perhaps put these fragments in the Dunes wreck

    I understand what you're getting at here, and in many cases it is acceptable to cast aside science in the name of gameplay (especially in a science fiction game), but when something that isn't terribly difficult in the real world is made to be much more difficult in a game (and one set far in the future at that) with no plausible explanation, it smacks to me of lazy game design. I tend to be much more forgiving when things in a game are made easier than the real world for the sake of gameplay and convenience, but it really bugs me when it goes the other way. Internal inconsistencies (like the fact that the fabricator can purify a fish for eating, but can't directly purify water for "reasons") are also a pet peeve of mine.

    There are plenty of ways the base power usage (and power usage in general in the game) could be balanced without effectively violating the laws of physics to the player's detriment. Oxygen production is a big one. That is definitely something that takes a LOT of power and could open up some neat gameplay opportunities with pipes to bring down oxygen from the surface for early bases that don't have enough power to sustain full O2 production. The devs are already moving this direction somewhat with adding power usage to each base piece.

    Maybe the core issue here is that we don't really need separate food and water bars and just need hunger (say that the survival suit includes a water purification system so the player always gets the water they need). Most of the food items already provide both, and even with the unrealistic energy use and very slow purification time the water purifier (and the stillsuit), not to mention plant pots with marblemelons make water a non-issue early in the game anyways.
    ShuttleBugTarkannen
  • ShuttleBugShuttleBug USA Join Date: 2017-03-15 Member: 228943Members Posts: 567 Advanced user
    I mean, the water filtration machine is an Alterra product right? Its not exactly known for its exceptionally great products. The WFM could be a terrible excuse for a filtration machine, far worse than the current modern day version. And besides, the WFM was probably mass produced for nearly every Alterra starship or mechanical facility in a large region and if I was an Alterra product designer I would find out how to make the machine as cheap as possible, meaning it would probably break half the time or run very slowly. On a gameplay stand point, I agree with @Tarkannen 's point on making the days longer. I can barely get around before the sun set, making it very difficult to accomplish much :lol:
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  • darntrooldarntrool Россия, Амурская область, город Благовещенск. Join Date: 2017-07-23 Member: 231983Members Posts: 6 Fully active user
    Машине для фильтрации воды нужно небольшое меню где можно выберать что производить воду,соль или оба сразу. Мне в процессе игры поваренная соль была уже не нужна и ее приходилось выкидывать в урну. А вот в воде я нуждался больше.
  • HunterG22HunterG22 United States Join Date: 2017-08-03 Member: 232205Members Posts: 4 Fully active user
    edited August 2017
    Honestly think its a bug I got one with around 30 solar panels and it wont keep up.
  • ShuttleBugShuttleBug USA Join Date: 2017-03-15 Member: 228943Members Posts: 567 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    darntrool wrote: »
    Машине для фильтрации воды нужно небольшое меню где можно выберать что производить воду,соль или оба сразу. Мне в процессе игры поваренная соль была уже не нужна и ее приходилось выкидывать в урну. А вот в воде я нуждался больше.

    @darntrool

    Машина для фильтрации воды может использовать некоторую балансировку перед выпуском, например, скорость и потребление энергии. Мне нравится ваша идея, хотя :)
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  • Timelord_FredTimelord_Fred Join Date: 2017-07-05 Member: 231596Members Posts: 264 Advanced user
    gamer1000k wrote: »
    Your science hammer doesn't apply here. This is a game. Science should be cast aside for gameplays sake. The filtration machine is a cheap way to permanently solve the water problem once you unlock it early-mid game. It's supposed to cost a high (but not insane as seen in experimental) power cost. This helps to encourage the player to move to other sources of power than solar but give them a way to deal with water without having a bladder fish farm. I didn't even consider bio reactors untill I built my first filtration machine and lost all power one night. It might be more acceptable to rebalancing the recipe (how do you get a water filter out of titanium alone?) And make a more efficient version to replace this one, or make an upgraded version. Perhaps put these fragments in the Dunes wreck

    I understand what you're getting at here, and in many cases it is acceptable to cast aside science in the name of gameplay (especially in a science fiction game), but when something that isn't terribly difficult in the real world is made to be much more difficult in a game (and one set far in the future at that) with no plausible explanation, it smacks to me of lazy game design. I tend to be much more forgiving when things in a game are made easier than the real world for the sake of gameplay and convenience, but it really bugs me when it goes the other way. Internal inconsistencies (like the fact that the fabricator can purify a fish for eating, but can't directly purify water for "reasons") are also a pet peeve of mine.

    There are plenty of ways the base power usage (and power usage in general in the game) could be balanced without effectively violating the laws of physics to the player's detriment. Oxygen production is a big one. That is definitely something that takes a LOT of power and could open up some neat gameplay opportunities with pipes to bring down oxygen from the surface for early bases that don't have enough power to sustain full O2 production. The devs are already moving this direction somewhat with adding power usage to each base piece.

    Maybe the core issue here is that we don't really need separate food and water bars and just need hunger (say that the survival suit includes a water purification system so the player always gets the water they need). Most of the food items already provide both, and even with the unrealistic energy use and very slow purification time the water purifier (and the stillsuit), not to mention plant pots with marblemelons make water a non-issue early in the game anyways.

    The filtration machine is supposed to be slow. If it worked as fats as real filters water wouldn't even be a chore.
  • gamer1000kgamer1000k Join Date: 2017-04-29 Member: 230121Members Posts: 313 Advanced user
    The filtration machine is supposed to be slow. If it worked as fats as real filters water wouldn't even be a chore.

    That's kind of my point. It seems like the devs are having to work really hard to make water relevant, to the point of nerfing the water filtration machine to be about as efficient as a solar still or dew collecting tarp despite the obscene amounts of energy it uses. Maybe the real question is whether water should even be a separate survival need from food. If the game was rebalanced around just food, then it would be easy to make growing crops/farming fish take awhile to balance the gameplay without having to resort to immersion breaking things like we're seeing with the WFM.
  • leenpowellleenpowell Join Date: 2017-07-19 Member: 231926Members Posts: 26 Advanced user
    HunterG22 wrote: »
    Honestly think its a bug I got one with around 30 solar panels and it wont keep up.

    How deep is your base? I run one easily off of 2 panels from the surface.
  • TarkannenTarkannen North Carolina Join Date: 2016-08-15 Member: 221304Members Posts: 669 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    leenpowell wrote: »
    HunterG22 wrote: »
    Honestly think its a bug I got one with around 30 solar panels and it wont keep up.

    How deep is your base? I run one easily off of 2 panels from the surface.

    Solar Panels got a HUGE buff this last update. They hold more energy per panel now (I think 250 each vs old value of 100) and just two of them at the surface seems to provide as much power as a single Thermal Reactor. Now the trade-off of course is that the output diminishes as you go deeper, but this makes the early game far more accessible now when you're just trying to get on your feet and move out of your 1-bedroom apartment Lifepod. :tongue:

    I thought there was a bug with my game after the last update; four TPs at a thermal spout was more than adequate to run two WFMs at once before, but it took nine TPS just to keep one going without brownouts. Come to find out with the new power distribution setup, TPs output energy relative to the temperatue - after that I was able to get just two TPs to run one WFM without issue. Likewise the energy changes have caused behavior differences with the Solar Panels as well, is my guess.
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    Timelord_Fred
  • LulzesLulzes Join Date: 2017-07-25 Member: 232050Members Posts: 121 Advanced user
    HunterG22 wrote: »
    Honestly think its a bug I got one with around 30 solar panels and it wont keep up.

    It is a bug, and the devs will fix it. I think Fred nailed it, it's not science it's a game, and once the power issues are sorted out I think it'll be well balanced. The whole base power system needs rehauling, power switches are a must and if you think WFMs are power hungry try adding a couple of floodlights. No seriously, try it, look at the results and press F8, that's the way to get stuff changed :)
    ShuttleBug
  • tommy21toestommy21toes Subnautica Join Date: 2017-05-21 Member: 230666Members Posts: 64 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    It works as a game mechanic so it's not overpowered. How about explaining it away. The water filtration has to deal with unrecognized impurities in the water.
    Namely one that could wipe out a highly advanced race that could threaten the universe. It's got some bugs due to the scanning of the water source and having problems identifying what was being put into it. Eventually it's able to decontaminate it, or believes it's succeded, but still doesn't have any sort of record in it's database of what is being processed.

    Give it a warning
    "Processing taking longer than expected. Unrecognized biological material in the processing chamber."
    "Possible biohazard. Standard thermal decontamination and molecular seperation failed. Implementing Level 12 biohazard decontamination protocol"

    Kind of scary after you've been drinking from a fish.
    Timelord_Fred
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