How is silence on shift hive still a thing?

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  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user

    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).

    Either you have it or you do not imo.

    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Here is a relevant thread with statistics on alien first hive choice.
    https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/148204/ns2-stats-first-hive-choice-preferences-discuss/p1

    2cough has a way with words.

    Scatter wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).

    Either you have it or you do not imo.

    How about you can drop one of the upgrade buildings for cheap, and then select which relevant upgrade to evolve there, like at the hive? Would also open up some tactical decisions about which upgrade to go for.

    :\
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.

    I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.

    I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    Scatter wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).

    Either you have it or you do not imo.

    There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    Scatter wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).

    Either you have it or you do not imo.

    There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.

    It was annoying having to beg the com to research the niche (read anything other than carapace, regen, celerity, adren) upgrades though.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 770 Advanced user
    Scatter wrote: »
    Scatter wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    Could we not just ditch the 3 levels of upgrade thing since it's not that interesting, makes a minute difference for some upgrades and generally only in the early game, or tends to make some upgrades nearly useless (focus).

    Either you have it or you do not imo.

    There was a time when you had to drop one upgrade chamber for every upgrade you want to evolve (one for cara, one for regen) which made much more sense.

    It was annoying having to beg the com to research the niche (read anything other than carapace, regen, celerity, adren) upgrades though.

    You are right and maybe that was the reason why it was changed. However, I think this should never be a reason. You must beg a lot during a round of NS2 because comms won't research Umbra, metabolize, don't place PVE, don't research shotungs, skip armor 2 etc. It is a team game and you are very dependant on the other players on your team and also on your comm. And that is a good thing.

    Having the possibility to either pay less resources for one upgrade or more resources for 2 or even all 3 upgrades atleast a little more strategic depth.
    Vetinari
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user

    You are right and maybe that was the reason why it was changed. However, I think this should never be a reason. You must beg a lot during a round of NS2 because comms won't research Umbra, metabolize, don't place PVE, don't research shotungs, skip armor 2 etc. It is a team game and you are very dependant on the other players on your team and also on your comm. And that is a good thing.

    Having the possibility to either pay less resources for one upgrade or more resources for 2 or even all 3 upgrades atleast a little more strategic depth.

    Yeah but given nothing is ever equal there's always going to be favourites that get researched 90% of the time while neglecting the rest of the content the game has to offer. Giving the field player some choice isn't a bad thing otherwise we might as well get rid of pres marine weapons and have them purely commander dropped like in ns1 days.

  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2017
    Better solution that fixes other stuff too: Fix the damnable sound occlusion system. Then it becomes easier to tune the volume for greater ranges.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • ResistorResistor Russia Join Date: 2014-08-01 Member: 197747Members Posts: 33 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    I suggest something radical:
    - move silence to shade hive and combine it with invisibility;
    - restrict some upgrade combinations (like celerity + phantom);
    - (optionally) move focus to shift hive

    The pont is (for pub games):
    cel+silence+invisibility = op
    Cel+anyupgrade = ok
    silence+invisibility+anyupgradeExceptCel = ok

    P.S. I find solutions above quite useful, just trying to add some thoughts.
    Post edited by Resistor on
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    Resistor wrote: »
    I suggest something radical:
    - move silence to shade hive and combine it with invisibility;
    - restrict some upgrade combinations (like celerity + phantom);
    - (optionally) move focus to shift hive

    The pont is (for pub games):
    cel+silence+invisibility = op
    Cel+anyupgrade = ok
    silence+invisibility+anyupgradeExceptCel = ok

    P.S. I find solutions above quite useful, just trying to add some thoughts.

    A more elegant way to deal with this would be assigning a point value to each upgrade, and restricting how many points worth of upgrades you can get.

    For example, if both silence and celerity are worth 2 points, and skulks can only spend 3 points on upgrades in total, they can't get both silence and celerity.

    Different lifeforms could have different amounts of points to spend.

    edit: For example:

    - 3 Points: Silence
    - 2 Points: Celerity, Aura
    - 1 Point: Adrenaline, Vampirism, Focus, Crush, Carapace, Regen

    Now give Skulks 4 points, Gorges 6, Lerks and Fade 5, and Onos 6.

    (I came up with these numbers on the fly, it's just meant to clarify the concept.)

    With a system like this you could even stop restricting players to one upgrade per chamber. (To prevent überskulks on hive 1 you could unlock upgrade slots with biomass or something.)
    This would allow for interesting combinations like regen + carapace. But of course, as always, this would take a lot of work to balance properly.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    Resistor
  • ResistorResistor Russia Join Date: 2014-08-01 Member: 197747Members Posts: 33 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    Vetinari wrote: »
    A more elegant way to deal with this would be assigning a point value to each upgrade, and restricting how many points worth of upgrades you can get.

    For example, if both silence and celerity are worth 2 points, and skulks can only spend 3 points on upgrades in total, they can't get both silence and celerity.

    Different lifeforms could have different amounts of points to spend.

    Had the same thought, just couldn't think of the appropriate implementation. System with different points for different upgrades and lifeforms sounds a little too complicated.
    We basically would get a RPG system :D
    Vetinari
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    @coolitic do you disagree that such a system would be more elegant or do you think such a system would simply be a bad idea?
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    I think it reduces creativity, and that each upgrade should be balanced to work equally in their own rights. It would be a bandaid solution for an inability to balance those upgrades.

    I also don't think silence + celerity was ever OP against anyone except noobs, but balancing a game for noobs is sheer stupidity (which is also why I think NS2 has been bad for the past year).
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    The_Welsh_WizardMoFo1
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    edit: For example:

    - 3 Points: Silence
    - 2 Points: Celerity, Aura
    - 1 Point: Adrenaline, Vampirism, Focus, Crush, Carapace, Regen

    Now give Skulks 4 points, Gorges 6, Lerks and Fade 5, and Onos 6.

    (I came up with these numbers on the fly, it's just meant to clarify the concept.)

    With a system like this you could even stop restricting players to one upgrade per chamber. (To prevent überskulks on hive 1 you could unlock upgrade slots with biomass or something.)
    This would allow for interesting combinations like regen + carapace. But of course, as always, this would take a lot of work to balance properly.

    I would take regen and carapace over celerity or silence anytime. This would be so much fun. Ooh, what if I also had the healing factor from vampirism. I can't wait for my oober health skulk.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 635 Advanced user
    At the very least allow upgrades from the same hive type as I don't really see any overly OP combos currently that couldn't be balanced.
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 953 Advanced user
    tbh if you would still be able to get 1 upgrade per hive but are not limited to 1 upgrade per hivetype anymore you would get alot of creativity.

    Like @Nordic said you would be able to go cara, regen and vamprism that way (if you have 3 hives)
    return to zero
    VetinariHandschuh
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    tbh if you would still be able to get 1 upgrade per hive but are not limited to 1 upgrade per hivetype anymore you would get alot of creativity.

    Like @Nordic said you would be able to go cara, regen and vamprism that way (if you have 3 hives)

    It would also give you another angle to balance things - a bunch of easily adjustable numerical values.

    Which could easily prevent über health skulks if they turn out to be op :P
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,730 Advanced user
    edited August 2017
    Ssh. Don't let people know about my uber skulk. Let all the rookies think they are cool with silence, celerity, and focus. I'll stick to my maximum health build. It suits my playstyle.

    edit: Great, you ended my perfect count of 888 awesomes.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 850 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    @coolitic do you disagree that such a system would be more elegant or do you think such a system would simply be a bad idea?

    the idea is awesome, i would love something like that. it would make it much easier for the devs to balance to upgrades...
    but the general public will only be confused, since it adds another layer of complexity that is not inherently logical (gameplay-wise)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 953 Advanced user
    @Nordic please shame on @Vetinari in your signature now for ending your 888 awesomes
    return to zero
  • StarClawsStarClaws Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9974Members Posts: 125 Advanced user
    Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas. The chambers have always been health/armor, movement/speed, sensory. It is an even balance. Shift is a well rounded upgrade chamber and the least likely to be countered effectively by the marines which is why it is take first generally. Crag leave you slow and reduces you to a more defensive mindset making you unable to close effectively with speed or silence while cloaking is countered with observatory and scans and focus is underpowered I believe. It should be 2 bite marines on armor 1 if it isn't already.

    "Plus Charlie doesn't know anything about technology..." -Max
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited October 2017
    I disagree with every single sentence in that post @StarClaws but I'm gonna stick to the beginning for briefness sake.
    StarClaws wrote: »
    Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas.
    Scan is not a counter to silence. It is completely inadequate and far too expensive. The closest to a counter we have, is essentially armor 2 and medpacks, but that opens a whole other can of worms.
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,822 admin
    edited October 2017
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I disagree with every single sentence in that post @StarClaws but I'm gonna stick to the beginning for briefness sake.
    StarClaws wrote: »
    Silence works fine. It gives the marines an incentive to scan areas.
    Scan is not a counter to silence. It is completely inadequate and far too expensive. The closest to a counter we have, is essentially armor 2 and medpacks, but that opens a whole other can of worms.

    The "real counter" of silence is the marine's LOS (line of sight) map detection which can be fully utilized by "scanning" (rapid camera turns) all directions while moving. Still silence is very powerful because it cancels out one of the main feedback channels (sound) marines normally use to detect the position of incoming aliens.

    Moving Silence back to Shade is also more about equalizing the popularity of the hive types than really the efficiency of the upgrade.
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  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
    I think silence is not fun for either team and should be removed completely
    PM sent.
    VetinariThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 258 Advanced user
    Silence is super fun for aliens. Should still be removed.
    NordicVetinariantou
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 123 Advanced user
    I want to see silence get removed, just so i can witness the astronomical amounts of complaints you'd get from alien players, then watch it get patched back in a week later. lol
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 15,780 Advanced user
    G_Lock wrote: »
    I want to see silence get removed, just so i can witness the astronomical amounts of complaints you'd get from alien players, then watch it get patched back in a week later. lol

    Aha you also feed on salt and tears I see :tongue:

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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.

    I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.

    I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.

    Repeating this for emphasis. Silence currently does two things: 1) makes it easier to get within bite range. 2) creates confusion in combat.

    Confusion in combat is bad for the feel of the game, and disproportionately hurts new players without adding anything interesting for vets. It makes the game feel less crisp.

    Silence should be changed to only mute movement sounds, and play attack sounds normally.
    Vetinari
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,463 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I think silence needs a bit of a Nerf. I love using it, but I think it makes the game less fun overall. When you can't use your ears to play, the game feels broken, and even more confusing than it already is.

    I'd like to see silence instead reduce the radius of the sounds you make to something very small, but have them play at half volume within that radius. This would retain its utility for getting around the map without detection, and getting within bite distance, but would negate it's effect once you are in close combat.

    I feel like half of the benefit of silence right now is that it makes combat so confusing for Marines, and I don't think that makes for very fun gameplay.

    I've been saying this for a while, unfortunately our sound system doesn't make that easy. Volume, we can control easily for each sound, but changing the 3d distances is something static for each sound. So in order for this to work, we'd need to make 3 additional copies of every single sound affected by silence with the different ranges. :( It's certainly do-able... just not very much fun to work on. Then, if we ever wanted to change what those ranges are... ugh...

    How do you feel about silencing the movement sounds but not the attacks? That seems like it would still be workable given these constraints.

    Repeating this for emphasis. Silence currently does two things: 1) makes it easier to get within bite range. 2) creates confusion in combat.

    Confusion in combat is bad for the feel of the game, and disproportionately hurts new players without adding anything interesting for vets. It makes the game feel less crisp.

    Silence should be changed to only mute movement sounds, and play attack sounds normally.

    Ghoul's mod does this. It's a lot better than vanilla. Still very powerful, but not as broken as vanilla.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

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