Warning: Cavitating

MaxAstroMaxAstro Join Date: 2005-07-07 Member: 55451Members Posts: 136 Advanced user
...I'm in ahead flank mode. Explicitly described as "emergency speed". I know I'm making noise, computer. Please shut up about it! :)
"The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go." - Sanae Hanekoma
matijas_05the_marinerCaptainFearlessgamer1000k0x6A7232SansTheSkelebroRalij

Comments

  • phantomfinchphantomfinch West Philadelphia , born and raised on the playground is where I spent most of my days. Join Date: 2016-09-06 Member: 222128Members Posts: 1,123 Advanced user
    Its implace incase the player either misclicks the wrong speed or they forget that the speed creates the loudest noise somehow.

    Btw just noticed your picture was of simon from gurren laggan. Nice
    Shit happens
  • MaxAstroMaxAstro Join Date: 2005-07-07 Member: 55451Members Posts: 136 Advanced user
    edited June 2017
    That message pops up whenever you go above a certain speed - you can trigger it by moving forward and diving at the same time on normal speed, for example.

    The really annoying part though is that it triggers every 30 seconds or so on ahead flank even if all you are doing is driving straight forward.

    Warning the player they are making a lot of noise? Good. Telling them something they already know every 30 seconds? Bad.

    An ideal solution would be to play that message only if you are in an area with predators that could hurt the cyclops. Getting that warning when you are travelling through the kelp forest is kinda silly...
    "The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go." - Sanae Hanekoma
  • MaxAstroMaxAstro Join Date: 2005-07-07 Member: 55451Members Posts: 136 Advanced user
    Also, the game doesn't currently do a good job of informing you why cavitating is bad. When the player gets constant warnings whenever they do a thing, it trains them not to do that thing. But as I understand it, there's not really any reason to avoid noise unless there are bonesharks+ near. And I feel like when a player is warned not to do a thing, but doesn't see any negative consequences for doing that thing, it kinda drives them crazy wondering what invisible repercussions they might be suffering for doing the thing.

    That's what goes through my head, anyway. :)
    "The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go." - Sanae Hanekoma
    Rainstorm
  • zetachronzetachron Germany Join Date: 2014-11-14 Member: 199655Members Posts: 1,189 Advanced user
    MaxAstro wrote: »
    Also, the game doesn't currently do a good job of informing you why cavitating is bad. When the player gets constant warnings whenever they do a thing, it trains them not to do that thing. But as I understand it, there's not really any reason to avoid noise unless there are bonesharks+ near. And I feel like when a player is warned not to do a thing, but doesn't see any negative consequences for doing that thing, it kinda drives them crazy wondering what invisible repercussions they might be suffering for doing the thing.

    That's what goes through my head, anyway. :)

    With the rebalanced Cyclops damaging I can run through swarms of bonesharks with only mild damage as long as I stay at flank speed forward, as the creatures have no time to act much with that speed. The worst thing you can do is to run into a boneshark swarm with flank setting and stopping then. Right now there is only the Sea Dragon that is dangerous in true running flank speed and that is still managable now.

    So the best the devs could do is to replace the flank speed warning with a better creature alert warning. Creatures might get their coloring tuned not only to their aggression, but also to the Cyclops noise level. Like:
    • Blue for something big but peaceful like a reefback
    • Green if a creature could harm the Cyclops but can't hear it
    • Yellow if a creature can hear the Cyclops and is aggressive
    • Orange if its a leviathan that can't hear the Cyclops
    • Red if its a leviathan that can hear the Cyclops
    Then the flank warning gets replaced with reports on yellow-red coded creatures near. Or simply a creature alert and you can look at the display yourself.



    But something different:

    The Cyclops navigation looks like the devs are playing too much in VR mode where head turns while driving forward is no issue. If you have no VR though, you just wish for a creature attack display HUD like that of the scanner room HUD. So you can see which creature is where via HUD, best with distance display like with the signals.

    Because when you're occupied with navigation you don't really have much time turning your head to see where the creatures are on the side display. But in VR it might be acceptable.
  • zetachronzetachron Germany Join Date: 2014-11-14 Member: 199655Members Posts: 1,189 Advanced user
    Although flank speed could get reworked to "actual" emergency speed. That means you can only do it for a short time until it burns out or the engine starts to get on fire. Then the warning itself would be useful.
  • WiirlakWiirlak Blaton Join Date: 2017-05-26 Member: 230772Members Posts: 95 Advanced user
    zetachron wrote: »
    Although flank speed could get reworked to "actual" emergency speed. That means you can only do it for a short time until it burns out or the engine starts to get on fire. Then the warning itself would be useful.

    I would say give a boost in speed to every speed (not silent running, I guess) and make emergency speed way faster, no cooldown or duration but as you said high risk of fire in the engine room if we use it for too much.
    The IA should give us warning when using this speed because fire is bad ..
  • ThePassionateGamerThePassionateGamer Germany Join Date: 2016-06-07 Member: 218219Members Posts: 303 Advanced user
    zetachron wrote: »
    Although flank speed could get reworked to "actual" emergency speed. That means you can only do it for a short time until it burns out or the engine starts to get on fire. Then the warning itself would be useful.

    I read something on a Trello card that @The08MetroidMan mentioned that they plan to introduce "Noise circles" on the creature radar and that the "ping" on the creature radar will change colour accourding to the creature aggresion level. That should greatly improve your awareness.

    They also mention on that "Cyclops silent running 2nd pass" - card, that they will introduce a heat system where flank speed will produce heat which will rise as long as you use it and lower when you stop and or switch to a lower speed.
    My guess is that they do this to discourage players from using flank speed too carelessly. So you can't speed across the whole map in flank speed, just to go silent running when near the first predator and be safe.
    You would have to wait a certain timeframe in which your engine cools down where you still would pull aggro, which is fine I guess since flank speed is most likely not meant to be your best "travel speed". It believe it is meant for short "escape" situations and the new heat system reflects that.
  • zetachronzetachron Germany Join Date: 2014-11-14 Member: 199655Members Posts: 1,189 Advanced user
    zetachron wrote: »
    Although flank speed could get reworked to "actual" emergency speed. That means you can only do it for a short time until it burns out or the engine starts to get on fire. Then the warning itself would be useful.

    I read something on a Trello card that @The08MetroidMan mentioned that they plan to introduce "Noise circles" on the creature radar and that the "ping" on the creature radar will change colour accourding to the creature aggresion level. That should greatly improve your awareness.

    They also mention on that "Cyclops silent running 2nd pass" - card, that they will introduce a heat system where flank speed will produce heat which will rise as long as you use it and lower when you stop and or switch to a lower speed.
    My guess is that they do this to discourage players from using flank speed too carelessly. So you can't speed across the whole map in flank speed, just to go silent running when near the first predator and be safe.
    You would have to wait a certain timeframe in which your engine cools down where you still would pull aggro, which is fine I guess since flank speed is most likely not meant to be your best "travel speed". It believe it is meant for short "escape" situations and the new heat system reflects that.

    They reworked the Cyclops quite well so far, but it's really still too slow. I think it's the last obstacle to make it useful. Not every player is a slow driving nomad, who uses the Cyclops for mass harvesting or as a replacement for living in a base. It simply takes too much time to travel with non flank speed to the other map parts.

    What happens if I want to travel back to the surface from the lava zone? Do I do it with the Cyclops or just exit it with my Prawn that needs far less time for the walk? And the player who decide to get back to the surface ... will they travel there in flank speed or slow speed? Not counted the warp gate speedup for my Prawn that makes travelling time with the Cyclops even worse.



    Finally, it's a nice thing to have an "emergency" flank speed system. But where exactly should I need to use it? There is no working emergency in the game now that the silent running is allmighty. And you could never really escape the fast Sea Dragon when he wrecked the Cyclops faster than it could turn around. The Reaper leviathan in open water would be good for escape with flank speed, but doesn't do too much damage and better dealt with in silent running now.

    The Cyclops turning speed is much too slow to give flank speed any other meaning than hunting forward and turning for escape with flank speed can only work in big open water.

    I tend to think the devs tested the usability of the Cyclops down in the narrow deep much too rarely. They probably only did so in open water and half of the testers probably use a VR headset that makes operating the Cyclops totally different (piloting with headturns).
    Jacke
  • ThePassionateGamerThePassionateGamer Germany Join Date: 2016-06-07 Member: 218219Members Posts: 303 Advanced user
    zetachron wrote: »
    They reworked the Cyclops quite well so far, but it's really still too slow. I think it's the last obstacle to make it useful. Not every player is a slow driving nomad, who uses the Cyclops for mass harvesting or as a replacement for living in a base. It simply takes too much time to travel with non flank speed to the other map parts.

    What happens if I want to travel back to the surface from the lava zone? Do I do it with the Cyclops or just exit it with my Prawn that needs far less time for the walk? And the player who decide to get back to the surface ... will they travel there in flank speed or slow speed? Not counted the warp gate speedup for my Prawn that makes travelling time with the Cyclops even worse.

    Finally, it's a nice thing to have an "emergency" flank speed system. But where exactly should I need to use it? There is no working emergency in the game now that the silent running is allmighty. And you could never really escape the fast Sea Dragon when he wrecked the Cyclops faster than it could turn around. The Reaper leviathan in open water would be good for escape with flank speed, but doesn't do too much damage and better dealt with in silent running now.

    The Cyclops turning speed is much too slow to give flank speed any other meaning than hunting forward and turning for escape with flank speed can only work in big open water.

    I tend to think the devs tested the usability of the Cyclops down in the narrow deep much too rarely. They probably only did so in open water and half of the testers probably use a VR headset that makes operating the Cyclops totally different (piloting with headturns).

    The question is how fast should it be?

    The current speeds are this:
    • Silent running 4.1 m/s
    • Ahead slow 5.4 m/s
    • Ahead standard 7.4 m/s
    • Ahead flank 8.2 m/s
    • Seamoth 12.7 m/s
    • P.R.A.W.N 6.0 m/s

    That makes the Seamoth "only" 54% faster. Compared to the size and mass difference that is not that much. I think the problem is not the speed itself it is more about maneuverability and awareness of your surroundings in those deeper biomes. As you said. It already isn't very usable when you drive it at flank speed. How should more speed improve upon that? Besides the fact that those deeper biomes contain more predatory threats which partly prevent you from driving too fast anyways.

    I don't know how or in which biomes they playtestet the Cyclops and I think you are right, that they haven't quite found the sweet spot of maneuverability and speed yet. But I am a little unsure what could be done to help with that now that most of the map is done and a major rework to include more "space" to fit the Cyclops through is out of the question. Someone mentioned that we maybe could "shrink" the Cyclops a little bit. That could work. Together with a hull reinforcement module maybe, that lets you crash into the environment without taking damage when you are on "slow" or "silent running" speed? Making it way faster isn't the solution I think. Maybe you could up all speeds a little bit (Flank beeing close to 10m/s maybe 9.5 m/s or so) but without added maneuverbility or a smaller hull you won't gain that much travel time out of it. And compairing the P.R.A.W.N to it just does not fit. You surely took jumpjet phases and or grappling and swinging through the biomes into your calculation because the pure walking speed is just in between "slow" and "standard" speeds. So you won't at least in theory be much faster with the P.R.A.W.N if you would just walk everywhere.

    With my lines regarding "flank speed" as a kind of emergency escape speed I did not mean to say that there are a whole lot of situations that you could or need to escape of. I just think the devs gave us that last speed setting for those kind of situations instead of just the fastest travel speed. Which would be slightly proofed by the point that the upcoming heat system seems to discourage the player to use flank speed for extended periods.
  • zetachronzetachron Germany Join Date: 2014-11-14 Member: 199655Members Posts: 1,189 Advanced user
    @ThePassionateGamer
    I almost never walk with my Prawn and constantly jumpjet or additionally hook. But the main advantage is the turning speed and maneuverability. The Cyclops can't strafe and turning time is absolutely aweful.

    I would probably be satisfied with Cyclops flank speed, as I tested it and it was fast enough to get me through in time, even through those tight spaces because I knew them by heart and could run through them with flank speed after they changed the Cyclops terrain damage to minimal. Try running against a mountain with full flank speed and you know what I mean.

    But flank speed shouldn't be misused as running all the time, so I would be limited a bit more. Maybe I'll give standart 7.4 another try to see if that's already good. I think my biggest problem is using the Cyclops not as a nomad vehicle, but as a direct fetch and return vehicle. I'd want to go back to a surface place when I'm down in the lava zone and then back and that multiple times. I'm used to doing that in 8-12 m/s with flexible turning, so I'm not having fun with the Cyclops. The visibility problem is another one, though meantime I'm used to drive by Cyclops cockpit sight only, even if that still pains my eyes. And not being able to strafe to correct a navigation path is important, that's for sure.

    Maybe the solution would be just to slightly increase turning speed of the Cyclops and allow minimal strafing.
  • gamer1000kgamer1000k Join Date: 2017-04-29 Member: 230121Members Posts: 313 Advanced user
    edited June 2017
    As mentioned, all the speeds (except maybe silent running) really need to be buffed.

    IMHO, flank speed should at least match what the Seamoth does, and maybe even be a bit faster (fast enough to easily outrun a leviathan in open water). Ahead standard should be a nice cruising speed for traversing open waters without wasting too much of the player's time, maybe around 10-12 m/s. Ahead slow should be geared for tight spaces and caves, maybe it could also provide a significant turn speed buff and the ability to strafe to encourage players to choose the appropriate speed for the situation instead of just jumping between fast and silent running all the time.

    If the map wasn't so small, I would say that the Cyclops should be able to do at least 30 knots like real subs.
    zetachronJacke
  • RalijRalij US Join Date: 2016-05-20 Member: 217092Members Posts: 602 Advanced user
    Being able to strafe in silent running mode would be awesome.
    zetachron
  • MaxAstroMaxAstro Join Date: 2005-07-07 Member: 55451Members Posts: 136 Advanced user
    edited June 2017
    Currently I feel like the most useless speed is Ahead Slow - why would you ever use that instead of Silent Running? So perhaps giving the Cyclops much improved maneuverability in Ahead Slow (that doesn't apply to silent running because the turning jets are shut down or whatever technobabble you want to apply) would be nice. I do think Ahead Flank could stand to be faster, but it should probably also tank your power in addition to the other drawbacks. Maybe reinforce the shields, too? So Ahead Flank can be "I need to be gone, NOW, and I don't care how much power it takes".

    That way you would have a nice range of uses: Silent Running for sneaking, Ahead Slow for maneuvering in tight spaces, Ahead Standard for general use, and Ahead Flank for GTFO.
    "The world ends with you. If you want to enjoy life, expand your world. You gotta push your horizons out as far as they'll go." - Sanae Hanekoma
    gamer1000kFathom
  • ThePassionateGamerThePassionateGamer Germany Join Date: 2016-06-07 Member: 218219Members Posts: 303 Advanced user
    zetachron wrote: »
    @ThePassionateGamer
    I almost never walk with my Prawn and constantly jumpjet or additionally hook. But the main advantage is the turning speed and maneuverability. The Cyclops can't strafe and turning time is absolutely aweful.

    I would probably be satisfied with Cyclops flank speed, as I tested it and it was fast enough to get me through in time, even through those tight spaces because I knew them by heart and could run through them with flank speed after they changed the Cyclops terrain damage to minimal. Try running against a mountain with full flank speed and you know what I mean.

    But flank speed shouldn't be misused as running all the time, so I would be limited a bit more. Maybe I'll give standart 7.4 another try to see if that's already good. I think my biggest problem is using the Cyclops not as a nomad vehicle, but as a direct fetch and return vehicle. I'd want to go back to a surface place when I'm down in the lava zone and then back and that multiple times. I'm used to doing that in 8-12 m/s with flexible turning, so I'm not having fun with the Cyclops. The visibility problem is another one, though meantime I'm used to drive by Cyclops cockpit sight only, even if that still pains my eyes. And not being able to strafe to correct a navigation path is important, that's for sure.

    Maybe the solution would be just to slightly increase turning speed of the Cyclops and allow minimal strafing.

    Silent Running 2.0 in this thread I read about the upcoming changes to the Cyclops. They are going to make current flank speed the new "standard" speed and add an even faster "Flank Speed" setting on top of that. But the "Heat System" that I misinterpreted as a system to keep Aggro for some time, is instead applied to the new flank speed. This means if you push your engines in flank too hard, you have a chance after 20seconds flank speed to overheat your engine and create a fire onboard as a result. So you could only use it for short, fast "sprints". That sounds good and well thought-out to me.

    Yes, as written before, visibility is my main issue when it comes to Cyclops maneuvering. But yes it could be more agily in slow speed especially because they said it is meant to help you navigate narrow passages.

    Did not yet test out the new terrain damage model. Is that already available in the stable version? Because I must admit I don't run two differnt versions of subnautica anymore. I mostly play the stable version and that's it. So I have to wait longer for changes to actually play them.
  • zetachronzetachron Germany Join Date: 2014-11-14 Member: 199655Members Posts: 1,189 Advanced user
    @ThePassionateGamer
    I'm on experimental, so it's a long time since I checked stable and thus can't say for sure, but the terrain damage in stable was already reduced quite a bit, so I advice you to test it yourself as I said. Just ram the big mountain or any other big wall that is near your Cyclops in flank speed. Test it a few times, then if damage is moderate try running and squeezing yourself with force through the dense terrain in the depth and look how much overall damage you got.
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