Some recipe ingredient thoughts...

Greyfairer

Rebreather -

+enameled glass (based on the idea of depth of use)



Seamoth -

the x2 glass should be enameled as above

+computer chip, I mean come on its a sub that talks

+basic wiring kit



Cyclops-

+computer chip


Prawn-

+computer chip

+advanced wiring kit



The above are just a few observations and I base my suggestions on what the items do, how high 'level' they are and what other items you similar ingredients.

Thoughts?


Greyfairer

scifiwriterguy

In terms of realism, absolutely. No argument there.

Having to collect that many stalker teeth in a nonviolent game just to progress beyond the safe area...I'm wondering if the devs didn't put in the enameled glass requirement early just so they avoid putting off new players.

But the addition of wiring kits and computer chips for clearly high-tech vehicles? No doubt about it.

DrownedOut

Right now, there's a lock of four different ingredients on recipes, so anything extra that exceeds that is off-limits. Not that I know why that lock exists in the first place, but there's that. And if any extra materials are going into making a PRAWN or Cyclops, I'd much rather have it be power cells so one can't "cheat" the energy section of the gameplay.

I don't see the value of adding a computer chip to any recipe that already incorporates an advanced wiring kit, since a computer chip is part of that recipe.

For ease of early gameplay, I think it's fair that the Seamoth does not need enameled glass. What I would like to see though is it being part of the pressure compensator series. It's weird how the focus is on enforcing the metal with lithium, while leaving the glass a gaping liability.

Greyfairer

I completely forgot about the Advanced Wiring Kit needing a computer chip as a subcomponent. good point.

Adding the glass requirement to the pressure comp series is good idea; more along the lines of a vehicle refit as opposed to merely a module update.

I suppose I have been lucky in finding teeth when I need them so I have not had an issue with enameled glass.

Tarkannen

@Greyfairer I mostly agree with your ideas, but I want to make a modification. Instead of needing Enameled Glass for the base Seamoth, I would suggest adding it (and maybe a Plasteel Ingot) for the actual Depth upgrade modules. Although it's 'just a game', I can't quite get behind how installing something as small as a 2-liter soda bottle can reinforce the hull. Despite the description stating that it 'reorganizes the molecules' (paraphrasing here), the Seamoth seems to stay the same with it in or out. Having 'reinforcement' ingredients would at least make more sense.

I've made points in the past about certain recipes, but I wanted to add to your Cyclops request. First is the fact it's pre-built with six Power Cells, but none are needed in the recipe. True, you don't need six, but having at least one as a template makes more sense. Also, I have to ask why if we have to unlock the Cyclops Bridge/Engine/Hull recipes to make the Cyclops... why aren't they needed in the recipe?

I know this suggestion will get Disagrees at it will require more work, but in addition to the current recipe materials I think we should also need to craft a Bridge, Engine and Hull piece to go along with it. Despite all the materials it needs, I fail to see how the current materials can cover everything the final product uses.

scifiwriterguy

Greyfairer wrote: »

I completely forgot about the Advanced Wiring Kit needing a computer chip as a subcomponent. good point.

Adding the glass requirement to the pressure comp series is good idea; more along the lines of a vehicle refit as opposed to merely a module update.

I suppose I have been lucky in finding teeth when I need them so I have not had an issue with enameled glass.

Even a Toyota Celica has more than one CPU chip in it, and while it can submerge, it doesn't re-surface nearly as easily as my Seamoth. Maybe keeping the extra chip out of the Seamoth would be fair, but the Cyclops should need several...and even the PRAWN should need a couple. Whether it's part of additional Adv. Wiring Kits or just chips on their own would depend on the four-ingredient limit, but it's still more than fair to require multiple processors in complex machinery.

Tarkannen wrote: »

@Greyfairer I mostly agree with your ideas, but I want to make a modification. Instead of needing Enameled Glass for the base Seamoth, I would suggest adding it (and maybe a Plasteel Ingot) for the actual Depth upgrade modules. Although it's 'just a game', I can't quite get behind how installing something as small as a 2-liter soda bottle can reinforce the hull. Despite the description stating that it 'reorganizes the molecules' (paraphrasing here), the Seamoth seems to stay the same with it in or out. Having 'reinforcement' ingredients would at least make more sense.

I've made points in the past about certain recipes, but I wanted to add to your Cyclops request. First is the fact it's pre-built with six Power Cells, but none are needed in the recipe. True, you don't need six, but having at least one as a template makes more sense. Also, I have to ask why if we have to unlock the Cyclops Bridge/Engine/Hull recipes to make the Cyclops... why aren't they needed in the recipe?

I know this suggestion will get Disagrees at it will require more work, but in addition to the current recipe materials I think we should also need to craft a Bridge, Engine and Hull piece to go along with it. Despite all the materials it needs, I fail to see how the current materials can cover everything the final product uses.

All fair points and, frankly, I agree with you, @Tarkannen. I think the lack of Power Cells and other bits in Cyclops construction comes down to the limitation of how many ingredients can be part of a given recipe. And while I completely agree that the construction of the Cyclops subassemblies prior to building the finished product would both solve that problem and be more reasonable, I'd wager that the devs did it the way it's implemented strictly for the gameplay aspect. They likely always planned to have the Cyclops as a destroyable vehicle, and if you had to redo a three-part subassembly plus construction, there'd be a revolt among the gamers. (Hell, there's already a revolt going on.) So while I'd back it, I can nevertheless see why they didn't do it.

As for how a soda can can reinforce the vehicle: metals are crystalline by nature. The more those crystals are blended, the stronger the metal becomes because the crystal fracture planes become smaller and more disorganized; large cracks have more trouble propagating. In the ultimate reinforcement module, it could be molecularly altering the titanium alloy to be completely amorphous - a glasslike metal without any defined crystal structure. Hypothetically, it could make for very strong structures without a change that would be visible at the macro level. (Take a look at it through the appropriate T-E or S-E microscope, though, and you'll see it out right quick.) How that little tin can manages to molecularly reorganize the hull metal but do so in a reversible, impermanent way...who knows. That part makes no sense. Admittedly, this is a Game Theory-level explanation; as written, the devs just kinda invoked Space Magic as the answer.

Tarkannen

scifiwriterguy wrote: »

Greyfairer wrote: »

I completely forgot about the Advanced Wiring Kit needing a computer chip as a subcomponent. good point.

Adding the glass requirement to the pressure comp series is good idea; more along the lines of a vehicle refit as opposed to merely a module update.

I suppose I have been lucky in finding teeth when I need them so I have not had an issue with enameled glass.

Even a Toyota Celica has more than one CPU chip in it, and while it can submerge, it doesn't re-surface nearly as easily as my Seamoth. Maybe keeping the extra chip out of the Seamoth would be fair, but the Cyclops should need several...and even the PRAWN should need a couple. Whether it's part of additional Adv. Wiring Kits or just chips on their own would depend on the four-ingredient limit, but it's still more than fair to require multiple processors in complex machinery.

Tarkannen wrote: »

@Greyfairer I mostly agree with your ideas, but I want to make a modification. Instead of needing Enameled Glass for the base Seamoth, I would suggest adding it (and maybe a Plasteel Ingot) for the actual Depth upgrade modules. Although it's 'just a game', I can't quite get behind how installing something as small as a 2-liter soda bottle can reinforce the hull. Despite the description stating that it 'reorganizes the molecules' (paraphrasing here), the Seamoth seems to stay the same with it in or out. Having 'reinforcement' ingredients would at least make more sense.

I've made points in the past about certain recipes, but I wanted to add to your Cyclops request. First is the fact it's pre-built with six Power Cells, but none are needed in the recipe. True, you don't need six, but having at least one as a template makes more sense. Also, I have to ask why if we have to unlock the Cyclops Bridge/Engine/Hull recipes to make the Cyclops... why aren't they needed in the recipe?

I know this suggestion will get Disagrees at it will require more work, but in addition to the current recipe materials I think we should also need to craft a Bridge, Engine and Hull piece to go along with it. Despite all the materials it needs, I fail to see how the current materials can cover everything the final product uses.

All fair points and, frankly, I agree with you, @Tarkannen. I think the lack of Power Cells and other bits in Cyclops construction comes down to the limitation of how many ingredients can be part of a given recipe. And while I completely agree that the construction of the Cyclops subassemblies prior to building the finished product would both solve that problem and be more reasonable, I'd wager that the devs did it the way it's implemented strictly for the gameplay aspect. They likely always planned to have the Cyclops as a destroyable vehicle, and if you had to redo a three-part subassembly plus construction, there'd be a revolt among the gamers. (Hell, there's already a revolt going on.) So while I'd back it, I can nevertheless see why they didn't do it.

Ah, good point there. Yeah, investing more items into the construction would be a bit more troublesome. But how about this then: what if we could split the difference in the current recipe? Instead of a massive amounts of stuff for one vehicle, they could factor into the three parts seperately:

Cyclops Bridge Module: Enameled Glass x5
Cyclops Engine Module: Adv. Wiring Kit, Lubricant
Cyclops Hull Module: Plasteel Ingot x5

Once we have the three base Modules built, then those could be the actual Cyclops recipe. The amount of items didn't change, we just added a single extra step. And, if we wanted to add perhaps a Computer Chip or Power Cell additionally, they could just be added to the individual modules. What do you guys think?

scifiwriterguy

Good idea, @Tarkannen. The crafting system seems to limit you to four ingredients, but not four total input items, so duplicates of any given input are allowed. Hence, here's a proposal for the complete tree:

Cyclops Bridge Module
Enameled Glass x5
Wiring Kit x3
Computer Chip x2

Cyclops Engine Module
Adv. Wiring Kit x2
Lubricant x4
Titanium Ingot x3
Silicone Rubber x2

Cyclops Hull Module
Plasteel Ingot x5

The above three items are built at a Fabricator and produce an item with a 3x3 footprint. These are then taken to the Mobile Vehicle Bay:

Cyclops
Cyclops Bridge Module x1
Cyclops Engine Module x1
Cyclops Hull Module x1 (or x2)
Power Cell x6

This would make for a reasonable set of inputs for building a full-size submarine, but if this were to be implemented, the Cyclops has to be made more durable. Not invulnerable, but able to take its lumps. Because if someone puts this much effort into building one and a Peeper takes it out, they're going to be furious.

ThePassionateGamer

scifiwriterguy wrote: »

As for how a soda can can reinforce the vehicle: metals are crystalline by nature. The more those crystals are blended, the stronger the metal becomes because the crystal fracture planes become smaller and more disorganized; large cracks have more trouble propagating. In the ultimate reinforcement module, it could be molecularly altering the titanium alloy to be completely amorphous - a glasslike metal without any defined crystal structure. Hypothetically, it could make for very strong structures without a change that would be visible at the macro level. (Take a look at it through the appropriate T-E or S-E microscope, though, and you'll see it out right quick.) How that little tin can manages to molecularly reorganize the hull metal but do so in a reversible, impermanent way...who knows. That part makes no sense. Admittedly, this is a Game Theory-level explanation; as written, the devs just kinda invoked Space Magic as the answer.

Could that be possible via Nanites? Kinda like filling up the "pores" to create a denser material that is more restistant to pressure? I dunno how small Nanites could be and what they would be able to do but since SN uses molecular manipulating tech all along I guess you could "explain" the reinforcement module as a kind of nanite infusion. Those little machines would leave the module to form a denser more resistant hull for the sub and if removed the kinda leave the metal again? The time it would take of course would be longer then the actual ingame time but hey...video game logic and space magic make up for that I guess.

scifiwriterguy

ThePassionateGamer wrote: »

Could that be possible via Nanites? Kinda like filling up the "pores" to create a denser material that is more restistant to pressure? I dunno how small Nanites could be and what they would be able to do but since SN uses molecular manipulating tech all along I guess you could "explain" the reinforcement module as a kind of nanite infusion. Those little machines would leave the module to form a denser more resistant hull for the sub and if removed the kinda leave the metal again? The time it would take of course would be longer then the actual ingame time but hey...video game logic and space magic make up for that I guess.

It'd be a tough sell, science-wise. Nanorobots still have to be made from garden-variety atoms, so there's a lower limit on how small they can be and still be able to do something useful. Star Trek kinda spoiled us all on how nanites could look and work.

But you do bring up an interesting branch of thought: working at the atomic level. There's no known way to do this right now, but a science fiction (more science fantasy) answer could be that the mod increases the strong nuclear force and bond energy in the hull metals - essentially, makes the atoms "stickier" - so they're less inclined to either pull apart from one another or be torn apart themselves. But this is way, way beyond today's science and really borders on the fantastic. Still, with suitably advanced nuclear manipulation technology (which the Fabricator strongly hints at), it's at least plausible.