Frontline or Support?

Nautical_NickNautical_Nick Australia Join Date: 2016-06-12 Member: 218444Members Posts: 803 Advanced user
So, I recently had some NS2 players tell me that Gorges should are better at fighting than any other lifeform in the game. In fact, they even said that Gorges should lead fights and even fight solo if possible. So, what does the general community think? Are Gorges hardened battle born or specialized support and builders? Or are they something different? I would love to get @BeigeAlert on this thread too so he could give his expert opinion.
#SAVETHEROCKPUNCHER
Theorist, 2nd in Command of the PH/SP Warper Forces, Gamer!
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Comments

  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    Every player is obligated to be useful.

    If there is nothing left to build as a gorge, you need to help your team in fights to be useful.
    Good gorges bait marines into ambushes, initiate engagements by tanking bullets and chip down marine armor with spit/bile.

    NordiccooliticHandschuhIronHorse
  • Nautical_NickNautical_Nick Australia Join Date: 2016-06-12 Member: 218444Members Posts: 803 Advanced user
    So you both agree that Gorges shouldn't engage head first without backup?
    #SAVETHEROCKPUNCHER
    Theorist, 2nd in Command of the PH/SP Warper Forces, Gamer!
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 600 Advanced user
    If you ignore edge-cases, then yes, that's a reasonable attitude towards gorge gameplay.

    For eg; there COULD be a lone marine without any armour building a phasegate, and your teammates could be far off.
    In that case, even if you're a bad aimer, you should go for the kill, because the reward (denying the phase gate) trumps the cost (of your death).
    But these situations are rare, and you need experience to be aware of them in the first place:]
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Nordiccoolitic
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited April 12
    The questions are:
    Is killing the marine useful at that moment?
    and
    how high are the chances of winning that engagement?

    You kill marines in order to have time to hurt the marines economy. If you don't have bile and no skulks around to bite RTs, there is no point in killing a single marine in marine territory.
    The marine comm can easily outmed gorge spits, so commiting to a 1vs1 as a gorge is high risk gamble, that depends on low marine res flow or a bad marine comm.

    However, a gorge without support may harass marines by staying out of their kill range and constantly applying spit damage. It costs the marines Tres and may distract them from hurting your economy.
    Nordic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,204 Advanced user
    Yes, please. Gorges should be a lot more aggressive. Me and my fellow marines really struggle to take them down, it would be a shame if someone would exploit this weakness.

    :>
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    BeigeAlertNordic
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,695 admin
    edited April 12
    If you've got good accuracy with gorge spit, it can be really powerful. Late game, though, gorges should focus on bile bombing groups of marines amid the chaos so they can be more easily cleaned up by their higher lifeforms. Even a few bile bombs into a crowd turns 4-bite marines into 3-bites or even 2 bites to kill, which can mean the difference between losing an engagement, or taking the room.
    NordicVetinaricoolitic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,317 Advanced user
    edited April 12
    In addition to what has been mentioned: It can be very effective if a gorge leads the way into an engagement, tanking some damage so that the marines have enough bullets to kill the skulks. The also splits the marines attention because they want to kill the gorge to cost the alien team pres, but the skulks are more of a threat. While doing this, the gorge can also heal the skulks in the engagement giving them a lot more effective health. A gorge and 2_ skulks is a force to be reckon with if used appropriately. It is typically not worth attempting this unless you are confident you can escape the engagement alive. It is not really worth trading a gorges life for an RT, but it might be to take down a phasegate. I guess you could call this aggressive frontline support.

    Another tip for gorges, but not related to being aggressive. I wish more gorges would put up clog pillars in open areas to give aliens places to hide behind. There are many places where two clogs on top of each other can block a very long line of site. This can save escaping lifeforms, or allow them to close the distance.
    BeigeAlert ... expert opinion.
    How do I become an expert like Beige? I want to be the very best there ever was.

    Please do not awesome anymore of my posts. I have 888 awesome's, and I would like to keep it that way. Shame on @Vetinari,
    @cooltic, and @.trixX. for ending it.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    .trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,204 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Another tip for gorges, but not related to being aggressive. I wish more gorges would put up clog pillars in open areas to give aliens places to hide behind. There are many places where two clogs on top of each other can block a very long line of site. This can save escaping lifeforms, or allow them to close the distance.

    Slightly OT, but...

    Man, remember when people used to build those stupid side-to-side clog bridges? In the entrances of rooms? They were usually positioned in such a way that they block Fades and Onos from going through, and marines only had to destroy one clog to reduce the whole thing to rubble. It was so pointless. I don't know how it ever got popular.

    Interestingly, I haven't seen it in ages. Granted, I don't play a lot anymore, but apparently people got the message.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,317 Advanced user
    That still happens to me fairly often. I lost an onos the other night because some rookie put some clogs in the entrance to repair from ore. I escaped the ore gate with 600 health, but couldn't break the clog wall down before the marines got me.

    I don't think it was something that grew popular. I think it something a rookie views an intuitive. I think this is a rookie habit, not even a low skill habit. Once you experience it once yourself, you will never do it again.

    This is not the same strategic impenetrable gorge walls. I have seen two gorges put up 20 clogs and 6 hydras strategically in entrance to system on veil. If a group of marines even attempted to knock the wall down, it took some time. If they took the time, they would run into hydras and be slowed down further and require meds. They can still go through the vent, but it still slows them down a lot. It makes system very hard to take, and nano harder to push.

    This only works in larger games like 12v12 where you can have gorges to spare. It is more effective with a sub hive. You need to have some minimum level of team organization so that all your skulks push the right side. Any marine who goes to the left side is just wasting time, and in my experience they don't stop going to the left.
    Please do not awesome anymore of my posts. I have 888 awesome's, and I would like to keep it that way. Shame on @Vetinari,
    @cooltic, and @.trixX. for ending it.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    .trixX.BicsumBestProfileName
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,695 admin
    edited April 12
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Man, remember when people used to build those stupid side-to-side clog bridges?

    Used to?

    Also, not sure what I did to be considered an expert on this subject... :/
    BestProfileName
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,204 Advanced user
    I rest my case. I should play more often.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    Nordic
  • Nautical_NickNautical_Nick Australia Join Date: 2016-06-12 Member: 218444Members Posts: 803 Advanced user
    edited April 13
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Man, remember when people used to build those stupid side-to-side clog bridges?

    Used to?

    Also, not sure what I did to be considered an expert on this subject... :/

    Expert opinion since you work on the game itself. You had a say in the design of Gorges.
    Sorta OT story but I was playing a game and a Marine on my team said that there were Georges in Nanogrid. Another teammate said that they must be very curious creatures.
    #SAVETHEROCKPUNCHER
    Theorist, 2nd in Command of the PH/SP Warper Forces, Gamer!
    Nordic.trixX.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 158 Advanced user
    edited April 13
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Every player is obligated to be useful.

    That and other stuff is what ppl tried to tell you and the other afk gorges who were literally doing nothing and waited at their safehouse... maybe giving one or two healsprays for a lifeform going to the hive was the utmost the gorges did every minute at maximum once ... (even that was useless since they mostly stayed just outside of the healingrange of the hive/crag) so no time optimizing at all)
    That is being useless or being dead meat.. going near the front and starting to spit and heal would be more useful... or going skulk and trying to bite rts..
    Gorges can easily draw fire to them instead of waiting for the marines to come to them... because at that point yesterday it was already lost because we had 3 useless gorges which gave basically no support as scaredycats...

    So in the end marines teched up, got exos and “suprisingly“ lost.. end of the round after which that topic came up... couldnt kill hubgate or keep their rts down like that even though we were dominating ... not even speaking about the usual pub-issue lack of /late lifeforms... 2 onos came up after w3 and exos
    Post edited by Handschuh on
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 600 Advanced user
    edited April 13
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Man, remember when people used to build those stupid side-to-side clog bridges?

    Used to?

    Also, not sure what I did to be considered an expert on this subject... :/

    Expert opinion since you work on the game itself. You had a say in the design of Gorges.
    Sorta OT story but I was playing a game and a Marine on my team said that there were Georges in Nanogrid. Another teammate said that they must be very curious creatures.

    Oooh, they ARE quite curious creatures, those piglets... really interested in how human flesh tastes x)

    Post edited by .trixX. on
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • G_of_the_JG_of_the_J Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186764Members Posts: 60 Fully active user
    edited April 13
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Man, remember when people used to build those stupid side-to-side clog bridges? In the entrances of rooms? They were usually positioned in such a way that they block Fades and Onos from going through, and marines only had to destroy one clog to reduce the whole thing to rubble. It was so pointless. I don't know how it ever got popular.

    Interestingly, I haven't seen it in ages. Granted, I don't play a lot anymore, but apparently people got the message.

    It´s still usefull in early games (before fades). Trick here is that you can spit effectively under "bridge" and force marines to crouch if they want to hunt you down, or waste bullets to clogbridge. While you spit them to death, or let your teammates deal with crouching marine, or reloading marine. Marines cant jump over properly built clogbridge. It doesnt matter that bridge is destroyed with half a clip, its still enough to force them reload and you can rebuild bridge in seconds after you or teammates have destroyed rine. If there more than couple rines, you should plan for you escape anyway. Infact you should always plan for your escape.

    You have to make sure that you destroy bridges before fades or onoses. And be sure that you dont make bridge so poorly that skulks and lerks get stuck with it.

    With clog pillars you cant do that in same manner. While rines lose eyesight with pilars, so do you as a gorge.
    Where it all began...? Gloom
    .trixX.HandschuhWob
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 158 Advanced user
    edited April 13
    Against 3-4marines you dont escape from nano.. having clogtowers makes an environment in which you can defend where you win a fight with much less casualties than you would have if one marines wastes 25 bullets with which you leave the rt with zero obstacles at all..
    In hindsight of the rest of the team having smartly build clogtowers are invaluable compared to other choices...if you dont have any whips you're usually toast

    You should think about what happens if two good marines with some teamplay enter the room...

    Having killled tunnels like nano now hundreds of times I can say the successrate is highest with bridges :) clogwalls are harder because you have lower distance at which you can start shooting, but hardest is mostly the clogtower since skulks can hide behind it.. especially if several skulks come in and notice they are being focused they use these obstacles...
    NousWanderer
  • G_of_the_JG_of_the_J Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186764Members Posts: 60 Fully active user
    edited April 13
    ^thats all true against div1 and heavily comp mentality guys. They know what they do and can execute that (accuracy). Also communicate well. You can easily escape even best of rines just if you be able to realize there is godlike guys against (communication). Just enter tunnel. Sometimes attack is so well performed that both corriders comes rine sneaking and focus fire at you. You can only turn, jump and be dead. But then its 2 guys communicating and no1 communigating me at my team. Also you shouldnt be alone in nano, what are you even doing alone in there? Must be better stuff to do than being lonely in nano, like healing skulks at frontline.

    I know comp strats are bit different. In comp you very rarely want to engage 1-1 to rine.

    I can only comment on pubs where i play. I like to watch comp thou.
    Where it all began...? Gloom
    .trixX.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 158 Advanced user
    edited April 13
    I'm surely not talking div1 here but lower.. Im talking about a situation where 2(!) guys come along with a small bit of understanding about teamwork.. and you know what, in pubs you can have 5 marines rushing in... these situations happen every day, that the results are the same, that clogtowers help much more during the fight because most of them are not being shot down (on purpose).. even though it might be smarter to rush base...
    the point still stands that the way gorges put up clogs on pubs is far less effective, because they do it wrong like in a rts game and you think you can block marines entirely...
    The lower your accuracy is the harder times you actually got against skulks dancing between those pillars.. and the longer it takes you to crush the tunnel the higher is your risc of failing it all together with zero damage at all
  • G_of_the_JG_of_the_J Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186764Members Posts: 60 Fully active user
    All im saying it can be usefull. I dont do bridges usually but i can understand whats point of them. 2 guys dont kill you in nano with bridges if you have simpliest clue whats going on. Or they are godlike. I agree that clogtowers are better. You just dont see any use of bridges. See my first post.
    Trick here is that you can spit effectively under "bridge" and force marines to crouch if they want to hunt you down, or waste bullets to clogbridge. While you spit them to death, or let your teammates deal with crouching marine, or reloading marine. Marines cant jump over properly built clogbridge
    Where it all began...? Gloom
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members Posts: 55 Fully active user
    edited April 13
    Gorges have a support role but a gorge supporting the frontline can help increase that frontline further IF you have a good team that keeps pushing after their death.
    Here is a short video i made a while ago keep in mind this is on a large server but it kinda shows that healing skulks biling enemy armor(weapons on ground) can help a long way.

    https://youtu.be/lG5PU6rtHv0
    Post edited by Dilligaf on
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 600 Advanced user
    edited April 14
    Now that it's been derailed to gorge best-practices, I'd like to add one more:

    When you see marines dropping sentries early game, ask your com to immediately research bile bomb, because that's the most effective counter to sentry batteries.
    From then on, your job is to feel out which batteries are less protected, and keep shovering them in bile!
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    coolitic
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,414 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    TL;DR: ... are support class by design, so they shouldn't be engaging marines alone..

    This is the mentality that made this game too boring for most from the start
    mattji104
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,143 mod
    @current1y gorge. Enough said.
    Any older players or playtesters will know what I mean...
    My mods --- Watermod collaboration with Feha
    For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping. - KungFuDiscoMonkey
    Z5UIr2s.png
    IronHorse
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 600 Advanced user
    Frozen wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    TL;DR: ... are support class by design, so they shouldn't be engaging marines alone..

    This is the mentality that made this game too boring for most from the start

    Have you read the rest of the post? My other comments? There is a reason for the starting TL;DR.
    All I see from you lately is just massive whining

    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • Nautical_NickNautical_Nick Australia Join Date: 2016-06-12 Member: 218444Members Posts: 803 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Frozen wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    TL;DR: ... are support class by design, so they shouldn't be engaging marines alone..

    This is the mentality that made this game too boring for most from the start

    Have you read the rest of the post? My other comments? There is a reason for the starting TL;DR.
    All I see from you lately is just massive whining
    Frozen wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    TL;DR: ... are support class by design, so they shouldn't be engaging marines alone..

    This is the mentality that made this game too boring for most from the start

    Now now, do not fight over an online forum.
    #SAVETHEROCKPUNCHER
    Theorist, 2nd in Command of the PH/SP Warper Forces, Gamer!
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,317 Advanced user
    edited April 16
    Now now, do not fight over an online forum.
    Don't take this away from us! It is 90% of the reason half of the people come to these forums.The other half come only to complain.
    Please do not awesome anymore of my posts. I have 888 awesome's, and I would like to keep it that way. Shame on @Vetinari,
    @cooltic, and @.trixX. for ending it.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    .trixX.2coughWobVetinari
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 458 Advanced user
    I also blame bad commanders who over use Echo. To many times I see commanders echo built RT right in front of a gorge. Mean while there is an infested natural RT spot without a gorge that is clear....

    I also don't see many gorges clog RT cysts... and why do gorges have to always group their hydras? A single hydra at every RT and clogged cysts would bug the hell out of me as a rine, giving aliens more time to respond, losing a bit of armor, and ammo...
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 445 Advanced user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    I also blame bad commanders who over use Echo. To many times I see commanders echo built RT right in front of a gorge. Mean while there is an infested natural RT spot without a gorge that is clear....

    Yeah but the number of times I've dropped the RT instead of echoing it and the gorge runs off to do his own shit. Sometimes it pays to have no trust in some players. :p
  • RadimaXRadimaX Join Date: 2013-02-05 Member: 182840Members Posts: 560 Advanced user
    i had 8 consecutive kills on veil holding overlook until we made a push trough sky and won the game.
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