How will NS2 run on Ryzen?

James1986James1986 Members Join Date: 2007-03-15 Member: 60366Posts: 25 Fully active user
Hi all,

Just wondering how NS2 is likely to run on Rzyen as I'm hoping to win a comp soon! Is NS2 GPU based, or would it benefit from a nicely multithreaded CPU?

Kind regards,
T4

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  • ArchieArchie AntarcticaMembers, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Posts: 441 Advanced user
    I'll let you know in April when i steal Sylvis new computer for a few hours before she uses it for "testing" :D

    I'll compare to
    AMD 8350 4.8ghz
    AMD 1055xt 3.9ghz
    intel xeon 5650 4.ghz
    intel i7920 @4ghz

    NS2 is generally a single core performance based game, seriously 4.5ghz is generally the sweet spot for intel CPU >2009, amd on the other hand falls behind quite a bit. We'll see.
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    Indeed, NS2 is a combination of high single core speeds with a decently powered GPU, it's not multithreaded by any stretch of the imagination, using around 1.25/1.5 cores. Multithreading is not all it's cracked up to be anyways for mutliplayer games ;)

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  • HamletHamlet Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-08-17 Member: 64837Posts: 373 Advanced user
    Heard of Battlefield 1 and/or the Frostbyte Engine?
    RevanCorana
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Those games are built from the ground up to do multithreading. What I meant was, it's not all it's cracked up to be, because the code itself would become more complex and much easier to bug out.

    And with NS2 at a maximum of DX11, which is buggy and has worse performance as well. Even that DX version is not designed for proper multithreading, add to this the Lua design. If NS2 is still running on an older version of C++ (pre C++ 11), it also has to do some magic low<->high level code dancing to multithread, getting those dreaded diminishing returns.
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    The main problem with NS2 performance isnt average framerate, it's framerate drop in places with lots of entities and/or people.

    I think there should be an option to toggle simple models to switch all entities and players models to alternate versions with way less polygons and simplified animations.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Thanks @GhoulofGSG9 for clearing that up, seems like one hell of a project still though :o

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  • barniebarnie Members Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Posts: 46 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    James1986 wrote: »
    Just wondering how NS2 is likely to run on Rzyen as I'm hoping to win a comp soon! Is NS2 GPU based, or would it benefit from a nicely multithreaded CPU?

    Will it benefit from more then 4 threads? NO! - i checked.
    Got a 1800X here, does it run better then my old [email protected]? Yes!
    [Make sure you pin the NS2 threads to one compute complex unless using the adware disguised as an operating system called Windows 10.]

    ps. Vulcan support when?
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    At this point we can just throw better hardware at NS2 instead of completely rewriting the code. I'm not quite getting consistent 120FPS, but its pretty close, and thats with a locked second gen i7 (no OC) and a GTX 1050ti. I find it hard to believe that later gen i7s can't run NS2 at 120+ FPS considering how old my CPU is.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    Will NS2 perform better on an Ryzen compared to an AMD FX CPU? Of course, AMD made a huge step forward in singlethread performance.
    But my 6 years old intel 2500k is still faster in programs that need single thread perfomance.
    So for NS2 intel is still the best choice.

    If you build a pure gaming PC, a i7 or i5 is still the way to go.
    The consoles are the leading platforms for gaming, so the question is:
    Can a 4 core 4,5 ghz PC compete against a 2,1ghz 8 core Jaguar (PS4 Neo)
    Im pretty sure it can.
    Current mid class PCs are already faster than the PS4 Neo.

    Thats why im sure that you dont need a 8 core CPU for PC-gaming the next 4 years.
    For Video editing or transcoding a Ryzen is a nice cheap alternative to Intel.
    image
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Consoles being the leading platform for gaming is highly debatable, the market share is fairly evenly distributed across the platforms with PC pushing the boundaries of what can be done. Them consoles tend to hold technological advancements back and introduce compromises more tha....


    Never mind this is going off-topic :D

    2500K is a legendary best in any case!



    At this point we can just throw better hardware at NS2 instead of completely rewriting the code. I'm not quite getting consistent 120FPS, but its pretty close, and thats with a locked second gen i7 (no OC) and a GTX 1050ti. I find it hard to believe that later gen i7s can't run NS2 at 120+ FPS considering how old my CPU is.


    You know, this really feels like good ol' days with NS pushing GoldSrc beyond what it was designed for and newer PC's kinda being able to brute force it. But GoldSrc was bottlenecked in how much it could render, push through the pipes etc... Spark seems limited by tickrate and bandwidth mostly, so even with us being able to bruteforce it with newer tech. Spark seems to be the bottleneck right now (once again :D ), similar to how GoldSrc is for NS...


    Oh how much dejavu can we handle, it's too much I telzz ya :dizzy:


    Hehe dem dev type peeps are kinda pushing Unity beyond what it can do as well :tongue:

    Unknown Worlds Entertainment: To boldly go where no engine has gone before
    b7da04892bdd41e2e58b4d536ec2ad39.jpg00279465f627dd27058a19c7e29916f6.jpg
    Post edited by Kouji_San on

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  • James1986James1986 Members Join Date: 2007-03-15 Member: 60366Posts: 25 Fully active user
    Hahaha! Thanks for the input guys, its interesting to find out about all this stuff. I have no idea really about coding or game engines, but I do love NS2. Someone mentioned it earlier; is a vulkan update in the mix? Or is that an impossibility for some reason? I hear nothing but good things about it!

    Kind regards,
    T4
    Help me win the AMD Ryzen Last Clip Standing competion, no signup required, just scroll down and vote! woobox.com/yog2u7/gallery/qNjgbPUXEY8 #noshame
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    1) Vulkan support is not planned. It would require a lot of work that is probably better spent elsewhere.

    2) AMD seems to be scoring similarly in single threaded benchmarks to Intel's Sandy Bridge. I would expect 3.4Ghz + Ryzen would do about as well as the 2500k/2600k. That means Ryzen would do fairly well with NS2, but newer intel cpu's would do even better.

    3) Intel CPU's have made marginal improvements in performance since sandy bridge. They do perform better, but the performance jump is less than prior generations. Intel has been focusing on power efficiency.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    coolitic
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    why is spark limited to tickrate?
    You mean the meh entity tickrate which I cant care less about?
    Or the main loop which for must servers right now runs on *checks* 130 to 160?

    A main loop of 160 sounds plenty fast to me.
    If game mods have shown anything it is that stuff like cpu load can be much less on spark if the game simply doesnt need to calculate a gazilion entities in combination with players.
    Sounds more of a game rather than a engine problem to me. :)
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    If Spark was used for a garden variety FPS, it would be able to run at much higher ticks indeed. It's just the "NS2 mod" running on Spark, pushes it to it's, dare I say beyond, it's limits.

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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited March 2017
    dePARA wrote: »
    Will NS2 perform better on an Ryzen compared to an AMD FX CPU? Of course, AMD made a huge step forward in singlethread performance.
    I heard the opposite? Or at least that they are still behind Intel in that regard..

    "AMD’s big failure with its previous FX processors was single-threaded performance and it just so happens that games are particularly sensitive to just that.

    In Cinebench’s single-threaded mode, the Ryzen 7 1700X is between 10 and 20 per cent slower than various gaming-relevant Intel CPUs, with about 10% of that due to a slight comparative deficiency in Ryzen’s architecture and the other 10% thanks to clockspeed."

    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/03/02/hands-on-with-amds-fab-new-ryzen-cpu/
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
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  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    The problem isnt average fps. Its framerate drops. The problem isnt early game it's late game. Late game when rushing a base NO CURRENT HARDWARE supports even 120 fps it's laughably laggy when a lot of shit is going on simultaneously thats the biggest weakness of the engine and one that is visible every round that has a late game so its not some "remote unrealistic situation".
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    @IronHorse
    Thats what i said above. Its noticable faster than a FX but still slower than the Intel ones.

    Looks like the Ryzen X1800 is on the same level like my i5 2500k @ default speed, wich is a huge improvement over the AMD FX.
    https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html
    But:
    I can OC my to 4,6ghz while the Ryzen goes up to only 4ghz with luck 4,1ghz.

    So in the end: My 6 years old i5 is still faster than the Ryzen in single thread operations.
    image
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    Nice to see that I can still swear by second-gen sandy bridges and be taken seriously
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    Kouji_San
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Nice to see that I can still swear by second-gen sandy bridges and be taken seriously

    Well not much has been gained in terms of raw power, the CPU's just went into the lower power consumption and more efficiency for an average of ~10-15% more speed compared to Sandy and Ivy. Instead of the usual huge speed increase we were used to, between generations. Alongside less actual progress to get higher speeds, due to that magical 5Ghz barrier and 10 nm cores/gates not giving enough resistance to higher voltages for stable clockspeeds.

    An overclocked Sandy is still nothing to be trifled with :tongue:

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    It is nice to see a thread go in circles. It shows the quality of a thread.
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Well not much has been gained in terms of raw power, the CPU's just went into the lower power consumption and more efficiency for an average of ~10-15% more speed compared to Sandy and Ivy. Instead of the usual huge speed increase we were used to, between generations.
    Nordic wrote: »
    3) Intel CPU's have made marginal improvements in performance since sandy bridge. They do perform better, but the performance jump is less than prior generations. Intel has been focusing on power efficiency.

    :tongue: You did say it in more detail though.
    dePARA wrote: »
    Will NS2 perform better on an Ryzen compared to an AMD FX CPU? Of course, AMD made a huge step forward in singlethread performance.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I heard the opposite? Or at least that they are still behind Intel in that regard.

    "AMD’s big failure with its previous FX processors was single-threaded performance and it just so happens that games are particularly sensitive to just that.

    In Cinebench’s single-threaded mode, the Ryzen 7 1700X is between 10 and 20 per cent slower than various gaming-relevant Intel CPUs, with about 10% of that due to a slight comparative deficiency in Ryzen’s architecture and the other 10% thanks to clockspeed."
    https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/03/02/hands-on-with-amds-fab-new-ryzen-cpu/

    That article cites the i5-7600k skylake as a gaming relevant cpu. 10-20% slower than various "gaming-relevant Intel CPUs" like the i5-7600k would put it right around Sandy Bridge. That is faster than AMD's FX CPU, and is a huge step forward in single threaded performance for AMD. AMD FX cpu's were comparable to C2D quad cpu's in terms of single threaded performance. Jumping from that to Sandy Bridge level performance is a massive leap.

    You are both saying the same thing, which is similar to what I said. :tongue: Cirlces!
    Nordic wrote: »
    2) AMD seems to be scoring similarly in single threaded benchmarks to Intel's Sandy Bridge. I would expect 3.4Ghz + Ryzen would do about as well as the 2500k/2600k. That means Ryzen would do fairly well with NS2, but newer intel cpu's would do even better.

    Don't forget that these AMD cpu's are have outstanding power efficiency to performance too. AMD may not have the best "gaming" performance as intels latest CPU's, it isn't bad. They are amazing CPU's for most things.

    AMD's cheaper CPU's like the $189 1500x quad core will have practically the same gaming performance as the 1800x. The competing Intel CPU is the overclockable i3-7350K. AMD is very competetive at this price bracket.

    Post edited by Nordic on
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    Nice to see that I can still swear by second-gen sandy bridges and be taken seriously
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    NordicantouResistor
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    Hehe funny @Nordic, those two threads kinda overlap ey :D

    Indeed @SquishpokePOOPFACE, indeed \o/

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  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    Forgive my ignorance, but what does \o/ mean?
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    Forgive my ignorance, but what does \o/ mean?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0DukONKOag

    \o\ \o/ /o\ /o/ ಠ_ಠ o"

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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Not wanting to derail this to much @Kouji_San so we can PM spam if need be, but I think you are overestimating the importance of tickrate in ns2 vs the 'not shown ingame main loop' which is much more of a big deal.
    Tick in ns2 means not that much.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    It's more of a combination though, server updates per seconds (server tickrate @ that measly 30), alongside the sheer amount of data that has to be pushed trough that low update rate

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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    Im gona slap you now. tickrate can be 30, its not important. Its almost just entities. You are thinking of the main loop. :)
    Update rate is however as advertised :D
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The NetherlandsMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 15,782 Advanced user
    edited March 2017
    I'm an oldschool kinda guy, so when I say tickrate, I mean how many times the server updates between itself and the client. You know before the term apparently changed? Let's go back to the time how it was used back in the day of 14K4-56K6 and ISDN :D

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  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    @Kouji_San you must be a human encyclopedia, because your knowledge far exceeds my own
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
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