Ambient Occlusion

cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,611 Advanced user
The AO in the game seems to have a sort of "static" grainy effect. Wouldn't it just be better to change the sample pattern every frame? Also, even on high settings, the AO looks sub-optimal, so it would probably be a good idea to add higher quality options or something.
When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


Comments

  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,669 admin
    I agree that AO looks pretty bad, I would like to improve this at some point as well...
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 504 Fully active user
    edited March 13
    *snip* Keep it on topic -IH
    Post edited by IronHorse on
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,108 admin
    There's some newer AO tech out there that is less demanding (and therefore less input delay) and looks better than the current high setting.
    I can't speak for others, but I can say that I have been bugging a certain developer about this for a long time now, always throwing potential AO solutions I find at them, much to their annoyance. :P
    I agree it's something that I think can make a game look better for those that want it, I just think it needs to impact performance far less before it can be considered remotely usable.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    cooliticIeptBarakat
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 504 Fully active user
    Why do you censor my comment and then answer me
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,669 admin
    Why do you censor my comment and then answer me

    We are not disputing your claim that there are fps issues in ns2 -- we know... oh God how we know... What we DO take issue with is your attitude. If you REALLY want to have a discussion about fps issues... act like it. Posting short, inflammatory sentence fragments is NOT how you start a discussion, it's how you start a flame war. When Iron says "keep it on topic", he's not worried about the discussion of fps issues, he's worried about the responses your provocative comment will bring.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 504 Fully active user
    We are not disputing your claim that there are fps issues in ns2

    Yea I mean there are fps issues with everything off and low already what I said in a contracted form because it is obvious and didnt need to be further expanded is there is no point adding better AO before having optimized the game so much so, 200 constant fps becomes easy to maintain for average hardware, and having many entities on screen is as much a challenge. Because unless that level of optimization is reached, nobody would use the new AO still because simply this is a fast paced game: action clarity > graphics

    A better antialiasing why not, it adds a lot of clarity as it removes the distracting jagged edges glitter but AO its purely fancy also way more like the framerate bulldozer.

    Sorry, I just like a good spanking once in a while

    Who would disagree one of the important reasons for the huge success of WoW, Overwatch, LoL, CS was they could run on a potato at the time of their release?
    IronHorseIeptBarakatcooliticantou
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,669 admin
    edited March 14
    Well for one, better AO != more expensive AO... I mean usually yes, but not necessarily.

    In my free time, I've been working on quite a lot of things in the graphics department... one of which is a temporal reprojection algorithm, which could be used for better AA, as well as cheaper, better AO.

    I'm also working on a small feature to add to the graphics menu, a "benchmark" tool, that loads up a level, plays a short cutscene, and gathers framerate data to present at the end. This will help us do a much better job of gauging performance, and making sure that new changes don't tank the fps. (Hard for me to tell, I've got a really beefy machine. :) )
    SupaFredIeptBarakatRevanCoranacooliticKarpman
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,108 admin
    edited March 14
    there is no point adding better AO before having optimized the game so much so, 200 constant fps becomes easy to maintain for average hardware

    I disagree.
    For one, that'll probably never be possible due to the amount of work required, you'd more than likely need to entirely re factor the game code
    Secondly, they are unrelated. Users aiming for the highest fps will typically turn down their settings anyways

    And then there are users who can afford to use better looking graphics without hampering their score in game. Not everyone plays with the lowest settings.
    For instance, you can use the OP as an example, or that I use shadows and anti aliasing and reflections and high particles and high textures etc. The only thing I don't use is bloom and atmospherics because they obscure too much.

    In fact I'd say the large majority of tech support zip files I've looked through the years have easily had over half the graphics features enabled.


    The only reason I don't use AO is because of the mouse input delay. If that can be addressed... Then why not?

    There's this common misconception that to improve on one part of a game somehow steals resources away from another and this just isn't always the case. We can improve on the optional visuals for those that enjoy and use them AND we can improve performance...
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    IeptBarakatRevanCoranacoolitic
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,332 Advanced user
    Wait wut @Ironhorse ?
    The only reason you do not use AO is for the input lag?

    I am QUITE sure you were one of the folk ive complained about for hours upon hours about NS2 AO. Im quite sure ive send you more vids and pics on the subject than on any other matter in that time period.

    More serious on topic.. This whole AO debate is kinda.. ancient news aint it? :D
    But nice if it can finally be fixed.
    IronHorse
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,203 Advanced user
    More serious on topic.. This whole AO debate is kinda.. ancient news aint it? :D
    But nice if it can finally be fixed.

    Added to the list of ancient suggestions :D MSAA, AO, Colour Grading, Gamma Correction, "Better infestation"

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" AdminModerator

    Existence Unknown

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly
    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue
    102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting | Play the Latest Version of Booster Z-Frame
    YouTube NS2 Playlists: Unusual Selection | NS2 Stuff | NS2PT | NS2 Tuts

    coolitic
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,598 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    More serious on topic.. This whole AO debate is kinda.. ancient news aint it? :D
    But nice if it can finally be fixed.

    Added to the list of ancient suggestions :D MSAA, AO, Colour Grading, Gamma Correction, "Better infestation"

    Don't forget Translucency, if I can't see through the membrane of a Lerk then I don't want any part of it!
    Kouji_SanIronHorsecooliticThe_Welsh_Wizard
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,203 Advanced user
    edited March 15
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    More serious on topic.. This whole AO debate is kinda.. ancient news aint it? :D
    But nice if it can finally be fixed.

    Added to the list of ancient suggestions :D MSAA, AO, Colour Grading, Gamma Correction, "Better infestation"

    Don't forget Translucency, if I can't see through the membrane of a Lerk then I don't want any part of it!

    Oh damn, you're right. Completely forgot about that, the transparency hack we have is wack and only usable as glass right :D We so wanted translucent skins/infestation (eggs, Hive, alien stuff mostly)

    Guardian of the "magic cookiejar" AdminModerator

    Existence Unknown

    Retired forum Admin, I mostly used a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly
    Retired EUPT Deputy | Moral Support | Squad 5 Blue
    102 1HP Skulk escapes and counting | Play the Latest Version of Booster Z-Frame
    YouTube NS2 Playlists: Unusual Selection | NS2 Stuff | NS2PT | NS2 Tuts

  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 147 Advanced user
    edited March 15
    The fps issue wouldnt be that big of a deal, if your mouse input wouldnt be laggily related to your fps.. I remember playing ns1 at top level with my real shit computer since it handles fps drops and mousemovement much more stable if there was a lot of action.. in ns2 however feels the mouseinput really squishy if your fps are changing only a little.. than you miss a fling shot against a slow fade with a shotgun even though you're 100% sure that would be a full hit with more stable fps
    antou
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,611 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    The only reason I don't use AO is because of the mouse input delay.

    What?
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,108 admin
    edited March 15
    Handschuh wrote: »
    The fps issue wouldnt be that big of a deal, if your mouse input wouldnt be laggily related to your fps..
    I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure this is how almost any game engine is set up. It's just that much more of a detriment in NS2 due to the abnormally crazy frame spikes that can destroy your intentions mid combat.

    Here's some fun data on the matter thanks to @Dictator93 , from some years back, with a theoretical solution suggested by myself and matso (fps smoothing)

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 504 Fully active user
    edited March 15
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Not everyone plays with the lowest settings.

    An exception to an average that is all. Probably less than 10% ppl using AO today.
    Because it's already hard to run the game smooth with everything disabled on average hardware.
    Theres no excuse to be both laggy and dated.
    A game that runs bad is usually for me a big no-no. A game thats a bit ugly who cares.
    The rookie retention would benefit from better performance Im sure.

    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Well for one, better AO != more expensive AO... I mean usually yes, but not necessarily.

    In my free time, I've been working on quite a lot of things in the graphics department... one of which is a temporal reprojection algorithm, which could be used for better AA, as well as cheaper, better AO.

    I'm also working on a small feature to add to the graphics menu, a "benchmark" tool, that loads up a level, plays a short cutscene, and gathers framerate data to present at the end. This will help us do a much better job of gauging performance, and making sure that new changes don't tank the fps. (Hard for me to tell, I've got a really beefy machine. :) )

    Temporal Repro..what?? How much less blurry than current FXAA?
    Benchmark sounds awesome. But please.. wouldnt it make more sense to fix #1 the framerate #2 prettier graphics? or is it that future optmimizations are not planned at all?
    There could be some simple options to start like use all grey textures or use simplified player/pve models alongside the already existing high performance lights from ns2+ .
    "A beefy computer" good for you but look at WoW, CS, LoL, or really any esport long-lasting title of the past has in common to run on less than average hardware at day1. Concidence?






  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 94 Fully active user
    edited March 16
    Aaand derailed. He does have a good point though, It's either NS2 waits until most people have systems that can run NS2 at satisfactory performance but at the same time, gambling if the game will survive until then. People used to play tremulous with averaging 5 to 20 fps back in the old days but it only took some 2-3 years before most people had dual core intel accelerated graphics and 500 MB or greater RAM size which made a huge difference on framerates and overall performance. But at that point in fact the game actually gained players in the next 2 years after standalone release rather than losing players. Even then GL 2.1 wasn't available on most integrated graphics systems, because trem had run using GL 1.X the game was quite tolerable. Playing on a laptop actually to some point, was better than playing on a desktop computer without a GPU.

    As for natural selection 2, I remember that when it was released, it was known for having such an inefficient renderer to the point that most people in my KnightsofReason.net community couldn't even run the game at decent framerates. Unlike the past where having over 30 fps was considered lucky, these days people say 30 fps isn't even tolerable. This probably contributed to the harsh declination in the population a few months after release. Ever since the majority of my KoR clan/community who had NS2 gave up, they haven't bothered to retry the game for a long period of time due to the lack of satisfaction from the game compared to Tremulous, which they have also left due to the decline in the community.

    Currently it seems impossible to even run NS2 without a GPU. Perhaps this could be the next optimisation goal?
    ___

    Back on-topic, isnt the in-game SSAO a very old technique of AO? Modern games like IL-2 sturmovik battle of stalingrad or battlefield 1 don't have the grainy effect but they use a different rendering technique. Speaking of SSAO, I noticed it exists in the GL 2.1 renderer and it looks like a speckled shadow of some sort rather than a blurry fuzz like it is in NS2.

    For this reason I prefer to turn off SSAO in either case
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,108 admin
    There's currently no way AFAIK to do AO that's not "screen space", unless its baked into the geo's lightmaps. (which cannot be done in this deferred renderer engine) And even if it were baked in, it would not apply to dynamic entities.

    Meaning, your best best is just improved screenspace AO, such as Alchemy AO (which was made by Max's brother! Max = one of UWE's founding owners who made the NS2 engine Spark) or something similar.
    Really, its not just about quality but also the ms required per frame.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 504 Fully active user
    ZdrytchX wrote: »
    Aaand derailed.
    By you
    IeptBarakat
  • TinCanTinCan Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Members Posts: 353 Advanced user
    edited March 21
    Why does this thread still show a highlighted icon for me when I check here.
    https://forums.unknownworlds.com/categories/natural-selection-2
    Usually after I read a thread the icon goes dark. 1View?
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