<!--QuoteBegin--Bicycle Repair Man+Nov 30 2002, 09:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bicycle Repair Man @ Nov 30 2002, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The "Tank" combo of a fade (adrenaline/carapace) or "assault" (adrenaline/regen) aren't the only ways to go.. Ever conisder going "ninja"? (silence/cloak/regen, or carapace if you wanna take more hits and can escape easily)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How useful is a Ninja Fade ambushing 3/4 HA&HMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How good is ANY fade charging 3/4 HA&HMG?
<!--QuoteBegin--Catgirl+Nov 30 2002, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catgirl @ Nov 30 2002, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Silver Fox bustin' out the awesome strategy of "killing the enemy base by not going anywhere near the enemy base". Only...not.
Don't mind me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I just hate people talking about using Cloaking to hide somewhere and pick people off who walk by. I mean, doing that doesn't kill any of THEIR stuff, and if you die; it's just a waste.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realise, that a cloaked skulk (sensory first = early game..) can take out three marines if he cloaked properly. This prevents those three marines from taking their first hive, it also prevents them from taking any further resource nozzles. In the end, the marines have hardly any income, and the aliens have the run of the hives. I'd easily prefer that over being twice as hard to kill - any day. Think of it this way.. currently the skulk rushes on marine spawn ~may~ be backed up by carapace. However, the skulks don't always win because the marines are waiting for them. Now.. if those skulks in turn camped near the marine base (out of the anti-cloak range if necessary) they would be waiting for the marines. IE, with enough skulks camping.. the marines don't get anywhere fast. I just reckon carapace encourages newbies to storm the front and die. Skulks aren't about that, Onos are. Skulks are all about camping on the ROOF (hey... they're the only one that can climb!) and waiting for passers-by then pouncing on them, perhaps taking out two or three marines. The only plus for the Defense chamber first argument is that the gorges can defend their resource chambers quite solidly, but hey.. if the skulks prevented the marines from getting out in the first place - wooo!
The way I see it, sensory is a great upgrade, if you are going to have an all-active defense. Very little chambers or turrets. A perfect example of this is the lift into Hera Enterance and Reception.
There are 2 dark spots where I hide, usually, on this lift, in the corners, 1/2 way down the wall, farthest from the nozzle.
However, these dark corners will only do me good if the people down below are completely inept, and cannot look up. If they turn on their flashlight and check those corners, I die. Plain and simple. But, If I had sensory, I could do all sorts of nasty mind games:
Hide by the elevator button cloaked. Wait for someone to walk in, press the button, and then as they check the ceilings, bite them in the rear.
And then, as they learn this dirty little trick, climb the back wall under the lift, and wait for them to come up the ladder. Chomp.
Movement chambers allow quick reaction and escape, along with the most useful upgrades in the game. IE: adrenaline, celerity, and on occasion, silence. However, they have no practical application as structures, as most times if a marine group is attacking a hive, they are seiging it anyway, and all the quick reaction in the world will not save you.
Defence chambers, with the armor mug fixed, are now, dare I say it, almost useless except on the onos or fade. The fade, even, given the choice between carapace and adrenaline, would choose adrenaline. In fact, I find that the only use in them any more is to make walls of lame. And with 4 concentrated LMG's, 10 hp/ second isn't going to do squat to save that wall.
I propose the M>S>D or S>M>D build orders. S>M>D caters more to the campers and area defenders, and the M>S>D caters to the more hit-and-run style. The way I see it, the only valid orders are...
S>M>D M>S>D D>M>S
Why? Movement is simply _the best_ chamber for lerks and fades. Period. A lerk with lvl 3 adrenaline is a walking gaseous riot sheild, and a fade with lvl 3 adrenaline is a blinking myraid of acid bombs. It is indispensable at the 2 hive stage.
Want to make sensory useful again? Level 3 scent of fear shows you how much HP he has left, and advanced hive sight works as a short-ranged motion tracker, not enough to check across the map, but so that you can tell when to hide on the ceiling, when a group of marines comes to the door. Viola. Sensory is now a viable first-hive chamber, with defence the one lagging behind.
<!--QuoteBegin--ianski+Dec 1 2002, 05:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ianski @ Dec 1 2002, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only plus for the Defense chamber first argument is that the gorges can defend their resource chambers quite solidly, but hey.. if the skulks prevented the marines from getting out in the first place - wooo!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and the fact it means Fades will have Carapace. Or Redemption.
Sure, for Skulks it makes them last that extra few shots (which CAN matter when you have so little health), but where it REALLY becomes important is down the road: With Lerks and Fades.
With two Hives you WANT Movement and Defense. Period. Lerks almost REQUIRE Movement, and they're fragile enough they want Carapace or Regeneration...and Fades need either/or for busting things open without dying.
I never assume I'll win in the "early game" and keep the Marines in their base; if that happened 100% of the time with "proper" Chamber choice that would be a balance issue and would be changed.
So you always assume the Marines will escape their base, and if they do...then Sensory isn't the best first choice.
<!--QuoteBegin--Catgirl+Dec 1 2002, 05:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Catgirl @ Dec 1 2002, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--ianski+Dec 1 2002, 05:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ianski @ Dec 1 2002, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only plus for the Defense chamber first argument is that the gorges can defend their resource chambers quite solidly, but hey.. if the skulks prevented the marines from getting out in the first place - wooo!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and the fact it means Fades will have Carapace. Or Redemption.
Sure, for Skulks it makes them last that extra few shots (which CAN matter when you have so little health), but where it REALLY becomes important is down the road: With Lerks and Fades.
With two Hives you WANT Movement and Defense. Period. Lerks almost REQUIRE Movement, and they're fragile enough they want Carapace or Regeneration...and Fades need either/or for busting things open without dying.
I never assume I'll win in the "early game" and keep the Marines in their base; if that happened 100% of the time with "proper" Chamber choice that would be a balance issue and would be changed.
So you always assume the Marines will escape their base, and if they do...then Sensory isn't the best first choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said in my previous post, if I'm a fade, I take adrenaline first, no matter what. Since the fade is an offencive class, Carapace may be more useful than sensory, but if there's a lerk and a gorge nearby, you could have a sheet of paper for armor, and still be secure.
Sensory is, IMO, a great early game chamber. Movement is best for lerks and fades, and the defence allows for that onos to soak up insane ammounts of damage before he bites the big one. Lerks, however, are too fragile to even matter with or without carapace, and regeneration is just plain slow! If you know how to use blink and flying properly, then redemption is a useless upgrade. I havent selected it in about 2 weeks of NS play, simply because I've learned the "run" part of "hit and run."
Looks like the people advocating a different order than D>M>S do so for sake of variety or coolness or "fun", not to increase the chance of winning.
2 hive aliens must be able to take out sentry outposts, it's that simple. The last hive will be heavily turtled, and you must conquer it. Marines will reinforce it via phase gate, and Cloaking won't help you. The only thing that will help you is a frontal assault under perma-Umbra, and that means you need carapaced Fades and adrenalined Lerks.
You know, all this talk about great variety would matter if a standard game HAD any variety. Truth is, they all follow the same pattern. If marines are so stupid that cloak dumbfounds them, sure, you can toy with them and have some fun... but you've won anyway. But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.
In fact, anything besides the raw power upgrades is a joke, created and now defended under the pleasant illusion that this game is anything more than "I conquer your base before you conquer mine".
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Dec 1 2002, 05:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Dec 1 2002, 05:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Looks like the people advocating a different order than D>M>S do so for sake of variety or coolness or "fun", not to increase the chance of winning.
2 hive aliens must be able to take out sentry outposts, it's that simple. The last hive will be heavily turtled, and you must conquer it. Marines will reinforce it via phase gate, and Cloaking won't help you. The only thing that will help you is a frontal assault under perma-Umbra, and that means you need carapaced Fades and adrenalined Lerks.
You know, all this talk about great variety would matter if a standard game HAD any variety. Truth is, they all follow the same pattern. If marines are so stupid that cloak dumbfounds them, sure, you can toy with them and have some fun... but you've won anyway. But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.
In fact, anything besides the raw power upgrades is a joke, created and now defended under the pleasant illusion that this game is anything more than "I conquer your base before you conquer mine".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Constant sensor sweeps= contant commander supervision=constant open backside. Chomp on the CC.
I agree, you do need to be able to take out sentry outposts. However, that extra armor from carapace is useless if you play that fade right, and have a support team behind you. Namely, a gorge and a lerk.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Nov 30 2002, 10:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Nov 30 2002, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Defence chambers, with the armor mug fixed, are now, dare I say it, almost useless except on the onos or fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> From what I've read of the tests people have done since 1.03, the fixing of the armor bug has had a minimal effect on all but Onoses and Skulks. Fades supposedly take only two or three fewer LMG shots to kill than they did in 1.02, and Gorges and Lerks both die before their armor is exhausted anyway.
just for the record.. I don't really need to have adrenaline to do damage as a fade.. but I prefer close combat so I guess if you acid rocket a lot, you don't have much energy... and you regain energy anyways, why the rush? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> It *helps*, though.
Early game, you aren't sitting back and waiting for the marines. You are aggressively attacking them, and no I'm not being redundant, I do mean aggressively. Not much use for cloak here.
If you aren't, then you are letting them expand. Expanding marines is a bad thing, bad things are to be avoided.
Mid-game, you aren't sitting back and waiting for them to come to you, shocking isn't it? You are once again _aggressively _attacking them, trying to drive them out of their entrenched defenses. Once again, not much use for cloak here.
Late game is mostly wrap-up, making sure you keep the three hives, while driving them back into their original base and taking them out. Hhmm, might be doing some camping here, you could get some benefit out of cloak, but I get more benefit from scent of fear.
Its not about being afraid to try 'new' things. Its about having tried them, and found them lacking.
Cloaking isn't good enough to justify losing the benefits from movement and defense. Oh, and claiming the only time you need to run back and defend a hive is when its being sieged just is a crock of **obscenity**. Jetbos are as much of a threat to hives as siege, and just as likely.
Smart marines have a few observatories, just to strip cloak. Guess what? I don't give a damn if cloak helps kill stupid marines, I don't have a problem killing stupid marines. And don't bather about how wonderful silence is, marines make so much noise as they move they don't hear me walking up behind them. Learn to crouchwalk when you absolutely have to move in without making a noise.
And please, don't make us laugh, sure you adren-less ninja fade is gonna kill one or two HAs before the rest notice. You may be silent, the marine is gonna make a bunch of noise as he tries to deal with you, and again, if he stupid enough to _not notice you killing him, well, its not hard to kill stupid marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, that extra armor from carapace is useless if you play that fade right<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is 30% damage negation useless?
You know, the whole upgrade choice would be a lot more interesting if it weren't so obvious how imperative Carapace and Adrenaline are.
Why is Carapace imperative? Once Defence is available, the Gorges build Walls of Lame at every critical chokepoint, so healing is available where you need it, no need for Regeneration. Healed, carapaced Fades live long enough to re-earn 44 rps, so no need to Redeem either.
Why is Adrenaline imperative? Because it makes you dish out more damage in less time.
When all is said and done, you need to destroy stuff, be it heavily armoured marines or their outposts. You don't need advanced vision/scent, you know where they are: they are attacking your hives. You don't need to be stealthy/silent, they know where you are: you are defending the hives.
And whoever isn't where he is expected to be loses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bottom line, If you plan on winning the teritory war and locking down the map: Sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True... too bad there IS no territory war, just a very isolated battle for the hives. I'd be happy if you could explain what kind of significance non-Hive territory has in this game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Dec 1 2002, 12:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Dec 1 2002, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realise, that if a group of marines were advancing with brute force and lightning speed.. had constant sensor sweeps and quite obviously are planning for the inevitable (camping or rushing..) they are going to know how to stop that skulk rush. Rushing a wall of three marines with guns levelled at the ground before you won't do you any good.. regardless of which defense upgrade you have. You can not stop it! The only way to stop that advancement is to have effective camping skills.
I'd have to say, cloaking is actually more useful as a retreat option more than a "wait for them to pass" option. A skulk terrorizing your spawn and you can't find him is deadly, sure he'll eventually die (one hive example this..) but he caused a lot of confusion and held up the building process. Once the marines start to win the battle he runs away and cloaks. Most marines are too stupid to hear the cloak sound.. or perhaps they can't hear the sound over the guns. So you can run around the corner, in an out of the way spot (to prevent them tripping over you) and then storm in again. As a Fade with silence only (didn't have 2nd upgrade available yet), I ripped through the main marine base because the marines could never find me. Of course to do that i had to take out the observatory thingy first. I also was able to get my adrenalin back, albeit slowly, while cloaked.
In the end, i'm leaving this thread because arguing anymore is somewhat pointless. I think D first and S first can be considered equal. They each have their various advantages and disadvantages, none is "better" than the other. I just wish, as many other people have mentioned here, that people would snap out of the current trend and try something different. It makes for a much more enjoyable game - namely because it's now more suspensful and skill-intensive. A cloak uncloaking right in front of you while you build a sentry turret scares the crappers out of you, whereas a skulk charging you and just simply not dying is merely frustrating.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Nov 30 2002, 09:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Nov 30 2002, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->pft, you do realise motion tracking only tracks .. motion - right?
Who says you have to go to the marine base to use cloak? Find a spot, cloak and wait.
The problem is, no one has any patients, so they think cloaking is usless when they try to camp the corner of the marine spawn and get supprised when a marine comes over 4 seconds later and kills them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is, in the early game, going SC is a terrible use of your skulks. The power of the skulk is their ability to cover most of the map, which makes up for their low HP / armor.
In the early game, if you have a skulk camping one area, and suddenly the marines decide to move to another area to attack, the skulk will have to either high tail it over there and help out (without a useful upgrade if he's cloaking), or sit and wait, and not be useful where the attack is.
When you see that "Resource chamber is under attack" You need skulks to get there fast and overpower the marines. Just sending one or two is risky, especially if the marines are paying attention.
Yes, sensory chambers are a fun novelty in some games, but against a marine team that understands the game, it doesn'T do much.
Last night, I played as marine against a team that went SC first, and they got me ONCE with cloak. After that, we need to keep on our toes, and it was all over for them. They had some OC chambers covering their base, which we took out with LMG, because there were no DC healing them. The skulks died extra fast due to having no carapace. Once we were in a room, there was nothing the skulks could do to get us out of there. If they wanted to try, they'd be motion, and hence they'd be uncloaked, and making noise. Easy to track, easy to kill.
And that's how it was when I played and a gorge went SC first. All the skulks used it, and it was neat and fun for a change, but overall the marines now had the edge. No longer could 2 or 3 OC be used to slow down marines at a choke point... no longer could we heal after an attack without running around to find a gorge....
yes, SC is something you *can* do, but it isn't what you should do. The defensive chamber itself is too useful to not use it at the start. You can argue over MC vs SC if you want, but I think tank fades are alot more useful than ninja fades. I've gone the way of the cloak fade, and you can take out marines lickety split if you camp in the right place... but I've always found fades to be more effective in the match when used as assault units.
<!--QuoteBegin--ianski+Dec 1 2002, 12:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ianski @ Dec 1 2002, 12:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Dec 1 2002, 12:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Dec 1 2002, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realise, that if a group of marines were advancing with brute force and lightning speed.. had constant sensor sweeps and quite obviously are planning for the inevitable (camping or rushing..) they are going to know how to stop that skulk rush. Rushing a wall of three marines with guns levelled at the ground before you won't do you any good.. regardless of which defense upgrade you have. You can not stop it! The only way to stop that advancement is to have effective camping skills.
I'd have to say, cloaking is actually more useful as a retreat option more than a "wait for them to pass" option. A skulk terrorizing your spawn and you can't find him is deadly, sure he'll eventually die (one hive example this..) but he caused a lot of confusion and held up the building process. Once the marines start to win the battle he runs away and cloaks. Most marines are too stupid to hear the cloak sound.. or perhaps they can't hear the sound over the guns. So you can run around the corner, in an out of the way spot (to prevent them tripping over you) and then storm in again. As a Fade with silence only (didn't have 2nd upgrade available yet), I ripped through the main marine base because the marines could never find me. Of course to do that i had to take out the observatory thingy first. I also was able to get my adrenalin back, albeit slowly, while cloaked.
In the end, i'm leaving this thread because arguing anymore is somewhat pointless. I think D first and S first can be considered equal. They each have their various advantages and disadvantages, none is "better" than the other. I just wish, as many other people have mentioned here, that people would snap out of the current trend and try something different. It makes for a much more enjoyable game - namely because it's now more suspensful and skill-intensive. A cloak uncloaking right in front of you while you build a sentry turret scares the crappers out of you, whereas a skulk charging you and just simply not dying is merely frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It seems your arguments are based on bad marines... should you make your tactics rely on the skill of the other team? Or on the overall effectiveness of the tactic itself?
Yes, I'm aware you're a playtester. I don't care. Yes, I'm aware that everyone will jump on me for being this direct. I don't care.
Everything you have said goes directly <b>against</b> my own personal experience. It sounds like you're basing your ideas more on theory than actual hard experience. Sure, they <i>should</i> be equally viable options, but the fact of the matter is they are not.
Sensory is useful <i>only</i> as a novelty. It provides no practical benefit that the other 2 chambers cannot provide, and cannot be competitively played at the same level the other 2 can. I have actively adapted my playstyle to try to make use of all the different abilities, but I can honestly say that they in no way are strong enough to be viable in a truly competitive environment. Sensory is only useful as a third chamber; anything before that and you're only weakening yourself in the name of "diversity."
Decent marines will know enough to check for lurking skulks, cloaking or no. And if the skulks are hiding out close enough to the base, the observatory will decloak them anyway. If not... hey, you're willing to let the marines build and upgrade their base unopposed? Fine by me; an alien team that doesn't harass the marine base has already lost, no matter how good its ninja skulks are. That means you're allowing the marines access to upgrades that will insure that when you do go after them, they'll plow you down and march right into your hive with very little losses. Paranoia can only take you so far; once the marines know enough to conquer their fear, you'll have very little actual bite.
I agree that the 3 chambers <i>should</i> be equally viable for different playstyles, but as of right now they are <b>not.</b> Ninja skulks and hit-and-run cloak/scent fades are in <i>no</i> way as useful as their DC/MC counterparts. Sure, you can blink in and slowly whack and regen, but why do that when you can simply pound the base with nearly nonstop acid rockets and kill marines to boot? SC-backed players simply can't do as much damage as MC-backed ones can, and playing silly games with the marines is useful only in the name of diversity, nothing more. A direct, aggressive assault is still the best option if your main goal is to <i>win.</i>
I would <i>love</i> to see sensory beefed up a bit so that it became a tempting alternative to the second or even first chamber, but that entails some fairly serious changes. Please don't suggest that it's strong enough to compete with the other two as-is; that is flat-out <b>wrong,</b> as has been proved again and again and again on the various chamber order threads on this forum. If I hear one more "one chamber is as good as the other" statement I'm going to scream, because while it sounds pretty, it's flat out <b>false!</b> There's <b>ONE</b> order that works best, and while I'd <i>like</i> it to not be true, the fact of the matter is that that's the way it <i>is;</i> denying that is just wistful thinking. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Listen to Alarik! The bottom line is, sensory <b>does not work</b> in a fiercely competitive environment, where playing for diversity will cause your team to lose. It's not that we're not willing to try new strategies, it's that we have and have found that one strategy is simply <i>more effective</i> than another, period, end of story! This means that changes must take place before the sensory strategy becomes as effective as the others.
Comments
How useful is a Ninja Fade ambushing 3/4 HA&HMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How good is ANY fade charging 3/4 HA&HMG?
Don't mind me. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I just hate people talking about using Cloaking to hide somewhere and pick people off who walk by. I mean, doing that doesn't kill any of THEIR stuff, and if you die; it's just a waste.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realise, that a cloaked skulk (sensory first = early game..) can take out three marines if he cloaked properly. This prevents those three marines from taking their first hive, it also prevents them from taking any further resource nozzles. In the end, the marines have hardly any income, and the aliens have the run of the hives. I'd easily prefer that over being twice as hard to kill - any day.
Think of it this way.. currently the skulk rushes on marine spawn ~may~ be backed up by carapace. However, the skulks don't always win because the marines are waiting for them. Now.. if those skulks in turn camped near the marine base (out of the anti-cloak range if necessary) they would be waiting for the marines. IE, with enough skulks camping.. the marines don't get anywhere fast.
I just reckon carapace encourages newbies to storm the front and die. Skulks aren't about that, Onos are. Skulks are all about camping on the ROOF (hey... they're the only one that can climb!) and waiting for passers-by then pouncing on them, perhaps taking out two or three marines.
The only plus for the Defense chamber first argument is that the gorges can defend their resource chambers quite solidly, but hey.. if the skulks prevented the marines from getting out in the first place - wooo!
There are 2 dark spots where I hide, usually, on this lift, in the corners, 1/2 way down the wall, farthest from the nozzle.
However, these dark corners will only do me good if the people down below are completely inept, and cannot look up. If they turn on their flashlight and check those corners, I die. Plain and simple. But, If I had sensory, I could do all sorts of nasty mind games:
Hide by the elevator button cloaked. Wait for someone to walk in, press the button, and then as they check the ceilings, bite them in the rear.
And then, as they learn this dirty little trick, climb the back wall under the lift, and wait for them to come up the ladder. Chomp.
Movement chambers allow quick reaction and escape, along with the most useful upgrades in the game. IE: adrenaline, celerity, and on occasion, silence. However, they have no practical application as structures, as most times if a marine group is attacking a hive, they are seiging it anyway, and all the quick reaction in the world will not save you.
Defence chambers, with the armor mug fixed, are now, dare I say it, almost useless except on the onos or fade. The fade, even, given the choice between carapace and adrenaline, would choose adrenaline. In fact, I find that the only use in them any more is to make walls of lame. And with 4 concentrated LMG's, 10 hp/ second isn't going to do squat to save that wall.
I propose the M>S>D or S>M>D build orders. S>M>D caters more to the campers and area defenders, and the M>S>D caters to the more hit-and-run style. The way I see it, the only valid orders are...
S>M>D
M>S>D
D>M>S
Why? Movement is simply _the best_ chamber for lerks and fades. Period. A lerk with lvl 3 adrenaline is a walking gaseous riot sheild, and a fade with lvl 3 adrenaline is a blinking myraid of acid bombs. It is indispensable at the 2 hive stage.
Want to make sensory useful again? Level 3 scent of fear shows you how much HP he has left, and advanced hive sight works as a short-ranged motion tracker, not enough to check across the map, but so that you can tell when to hide on the ceiling, when a group of marines comes to the door. Viola. Sensory is now a viable first-hive chamber, with defence the one lagging behind.
...and the fact it means Fades will have Carapace. Or Redemption.
Sure, for Skulks it makes them last that extra few shots (which CAN matter when you have so little health), but where it REALLY becomes important is down the road: With Lerks and Fades.
With two Hives you WANT Movement and Defense. Period. Lerks almost REQUIRE Movement, and they're fragile enough they want Carapace or Regeneration...and Fades need either/or for busting things open without dying.
I never assume I'll win in the "early game" and keep the Marines in their base; if that happened 100% of the time with "proper" Chamber choice that would be a balance issue and would be changed.
So you always assume the Marines will escape their base, and if they do...then Sensory isn't the best first choice.
...and the fact it means Fades will have Carapace. Or Redemption.
Sure, for Skulks it makes them last that extra few shots (which CAN matter when you have so little health), but where it REALLY becomes important is down the road: With Lerks and Fades.
With two Hives you WANT Movement and Defense. Period. Lerks almost REQUIRE Movement, and they're fragile enough they want Carapace or Regeneration...and Fades need either/or for busting things open without dying.
I never assume I'll win in the "early game" and keep the Marines in their base; if that happened 100% of the time with "proper" Chamber choice that would be a balance issue and would be changed.
So you always assume the Marines will escape their base, and if they do...then Sensory isn't the best first choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said in my previous post, if I'm a fade, I take adrenaline first, no matter what. Since the fade is an offencive class, Carapace may be more useful than sensory, but if there's a lerk and a gorge nearby, you could have a sheet of paper for armor, and still be secure.
Sensory is, IMO, a great early game chamber. Movement is best for lerks and fades, and the defence allows for that onos to soak up insane ammounts of damage before he bites the big one. Lerks, however, are too fragile to even matter with or without carapace, and regeneration is just plain slow! If you know how to use blink and flying properly, then redemption is a useless upgrade. I havent selected it in about 2 weeks of NS play, simply because I've learned the "run" part of "hit and run."
2 hive aliens must be able to take out sentry outposts, it's that simple. The last hive will be heavily turtled, and you must conquer it. Marines will reinforce it via phase gate, and Cloaking won't help you. The only thing that will help you is a frontal assault under perma-Umbra, and that means you need carapaced Fades and adrenalined Lerks.
You know, all this talk about great variety would matter if a standard game HAD any variety. Truth is, they all follow the same pattern. If marines are so stupid that cloak dumbfounds them, sure, you can toy with them and have some fun... but you've won anyway. But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.
In fact, anything besides the raw power upgrades is a joke, created and now defended under the pleasant illusion that this game is anything more than "I conquer your base before you conquer mine".
2 hive aliens must be able to take out sentry outposts, it's that simple. The last hive will be heavily turtled, and you must conquer it. Marines will reinforce it via phase gate, and Cloaking won't help you. The only thing that will help you is a frontal assault under perma-Umbra, and that means you need carapaced Fades and adrenalined Lerks.
You know, all this talk about great variety would matter if a standard game HAD any variety. Truth is, they all follow the same pattern. If marines are so stupid that cloak dumbfounds them, sure, you can toy with them and have some fun... but you've won anyway. But if they play as they are supposed to play, with brute force and lightning speed, advancing under constant sensor sweeps... cloak is a joke.
In fact, anything besides the raw power upgrades is a joke, created and now defended under the pleasant illusion that this game is anything more than "I conquer your base before you conquer mine".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constant sensor sweeps= contant commander supervision=constant open backside. Chomp on the CC.
I agree, you do need to be able to take out sentry outposts. However, that extra armor from carapace is useless if you play that fade right, and have a support team behind you. Namely, a gorge and a lerk.
From what I've read of the tests people have done since 1.03, the fixing of the armor bug has had a minimal effect on all but Onoses and Skulks. Fades supposedly take only two or three fewer LMG shots to kill than they did in 1.02, and Gorges and Lerks both die before their armor is exhausted anyway.
If you plan on winning fades vs upgraded marines, then go defense.
That is all.
Early game, you aren't sitting back and waiting for the marines. You are aggressively attacking them, and no I'm not being redundant, I do mean aggressively. Not much use for cloak here.
If you aren't, then you are letting them expand. Expanding marines is a bad thing, bad things are to be avoided.
Mid-game, you aren't sitting back and waiting for them to come to you, shocking isn't it? You are once again _aggressively _attacking them, trying to drive them out of their entrenched defenses. Once again, not much use for cloak here.
Late game is mostly wrap-up, making sure you keep the three hives, while driving them back into their original base and taking them out. Hhmm, might be doing some camping here, you could get some benefit out of cloak, but I get more benefit from scent of fear.
Its not about being afraid to try 'new' things. Its about having tried them, and found them lacking.
Cloaking isn't good enough to justify losing the benefits from movement and defense. Oh, and claiming the only time you need to run back and defend a hive is when its being sieged just is a crock of **obscenity**. Jetbos are as much of a threat to hives as siege, and just as likely.
Smart marines have a few observatories, just to strip cloak. Guess what? I don't give a damn if cloak helps kill stupid marines, I don't have a problem killing stupid marines. And don't bather about how wonderful silence is, marines make so much noise as they move they don't hear me walking up behind them. Learn to crouchwalk when you absolutely have to move in without making a noise.
And please, don't make us laugh, sure you adren-less ninja fade is gonna kill one or two HAs before the rest notice. You may be silent, the marine is gonna make a bunch of noise as he tries to deal with you, and again, if he stupid enough to _not notice you killing him, well, its not hard to kill stupid marines.
How is 30% damage negation useless?
You know, the whole upgrade choice would be a lot more interesting if it weren't so obvious how imperative Carapace and Adrenaline are.
Why is Carapace imperative? Once Defence is available, the Gorges build Walls of Lame at every critical chokepoint, so healing is available where you need it, no need for Regeneration.
Healed, carapaced Fades live long enough to re-earn 44 rps, so no need to Redeem either.
Why is Adrenaline imperative? Because it makes you dish out more damage in less time.
When all is said and done, you need to destroy stuff, be it heavily armoured marines or their outposts.
You don't need advanced vision/scent, you know where they are: they are attacking your hives.
You don't need to be stealthy/silent, they know where you are: you are defending the hives.
And whoever isn't where he is expected to be loses.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bottom line, If you plan on winning the teritory war and locking down the map: Sensory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True... too bad there IS no territory war, just a very isolated battle for the hives. I'd be happy if you could explain what kind of significance non-Hive territory has in this game.
You do realise, that if a group of marines were advancing with brute force and lightning speed.. had constant sensor sweeps and quite obviously are planning for the inevitable (camping or rushing..) they are going to know how to stop that skulk rush. Rushing a wall of three marines with guns levelled at the ground before you won't do you any good.. regardless of which defense upgrade you have. You can not stop it! The only way to stop that advancement is to have effective camping skills.
I'd have to say, cloaking is actually more useful as a retreat option more than a "wait for them to pass" option. A skulk terrorizing your spawn and you can't find him is deadly, sure he'll eventually die (one hive example this..) but he caused a lot of confusion and held up the building process. Once the marines start to win the battle he runs away and cloaks. Most marines are too stupid to hear the cloak sound.. or perhaps they can't hear the sound over the guns. So you can run around the corner, in an out of the way spot (to prevent them tripping over you) and then storm in again. As a Fade with silence only (didn't have 2nd upgrade available yet), I ripped through the main marine base because the marines could never find me. Of course to do that i had to take out the observatory thingy first. I also was able to get my adrenalin back, albeit slowly, while cloaked.
In the end, i'm leaving this thread because arguing anymore is somewhat pointless. I think D first and S first can be considered equal. They each have their various advantages and disadvantages, none is "better" than the other. I just wish, as many other people have mentioned here, that people would snap out of the current trend and try something different. It makes for a much more enjoyable game - namely because it's now more suspensful and skill-intensive. A cloak uncloaking right in front of you while you build a sentry turret scares the crappers out of you, whereas a skulk charging you and just simply not dying is merely frustrating.
Who says you have to go to the marine base to use cloak? Find a spot, cloak and wait.
The problem is, no one has any patients, so they think cloaking is usless when they try to camp the corner of the marine spawn and get supprised when a marine comes over 4 seconds later and kills them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, in the early game, going SC is a terrible use of your skulks. The power of the skulk is their ability to cover most of the map, which makes up for their low HP / armor.
In the early game, if you have a skulk camping one area, and suddenly the marines decide to move to another area to attack, the skulk will have to either high tail it over there and help out (without a useful upgrade if he's cloaking), or sit and wait, and not be useful where the attack is.
When you see that "Resource chamber is under attack" You need skulks to get there fast and overpower the marines. Just sending one or two is risky, especially if the marines are paying attention.
Yes, sensory chambers are a fun novelty in some games, but against a marine team that understands the game, it doesn'T do much.
Last night, I played as marine against a team that went SC first, and they got me ONCE with cloak. After that, we need to keep on our toes, and it was all over for them. They had some OC chambers covering their base, which we took out with LMG, because there were no DC healing them. The skulks died extra fast due to having no carapace. Once we were in a room, there was nothing the skulks could do to get us out of there. If they wanted to try, they'd be motion, and hence they'd be uncloaked, and making noise. Easy to track, easy to kill.
And that's how it was when I played and a gorge went SC first. All the skulks used it, and it was neat and fun for a change, but overall the marines now had the edge. No longer could 2 or 3 OC be used to slow down marines at a choke point... no longer could we heal after an attack without running around to find a gorge....
yes, SC is something you *can* do, but it isn't what you should do. The defensive chamber itself is too useful to not use it at the start. You can argue over MC vs SC if you want, but I think tank fades are alot more useful than ninja fades. I've gone the way of the cloak fade, and you can take out marines lickety split if you camp in the right place... but I've always found fades to be more effective in the match when used as assault units.
Ravlen
You do realise, that if a group of marines were advancing with brute force and lightning speed.. had constant sensor sweeps and quite obviously are planning for the inevitable (camping or rushing..) they are going to know how to stop that skulk rush. Rushing a wall of three marines with guns levelled at the ground before you won't do you any good.. regardless of which defense upgrade you have. You can not stop it! The only way to stop that advancement is to have effective camping skills.
I'd have to say, cloaking is actually more useful as a retreat option more than a "wait for them to pass" option. A skulk terrorizing your spawn and you can't find him is deadly, sure he'll eventually die (one hive example this..) but he caused a lot of confusion and held up the building process. Once the marines start to win the battle he runs away and cloaks. Most marines are too stupid to hear the cloak sound.. or perhaps they can't hear the sound over the guns. So you can run around the corner, in an out of the way spot (to prevent them tripping over you) and then storm in again. As a Fade with silence only (didn't have 2nd upgrade available yet), I ripped through the main marine base because the marines could never find me. Of course to do that i had to take out the observatory thingy first. I also was able to get my adrenalin back, albeit slowly, while cloaked.
In the end, i'm leaving this thread because arguing anymore is somewhat pointless. I think D first and S first can be considered equal. They each have their various advantages and disadvantages, none is "better" than the other. I just wish, as many other people have mentioned here, that people would snap out of the current trend and try something different. It makes for a much more enjoyable game - namely because it's now more suspensful and skill-intensive. A cloak uncloaking right in front of you while you build a sentry turret scares the crappers out of you, whereas a skulk charging you and just simply not dying is merely frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems your arguments are based on bad marines... should you make your tactics rely on the skill of the other team? Or on the overall effectiveness of the tactic itself?
Ravlen
Yes, I'm aware you're a playtester. I don't care.
Yes, I'm aware that everyone will jump on me for being this direct. I don't care.
Everything you have said goes directly <b>against</b> my own personal experience. It sounds like you're basing your ideas more on theory than actual hard experience. Sure, they <i>should</i> be equally viable options, but the fact of the matter is they are not.
Sensory is useful <i>only</i> as a novelty. It provides no practical benefit that the other 2 chambers cannot provide, and cannot be competitively played at the same level the other 2 can. I have actively adapted my playstyle to try to make use of all the different abilities, but I can honestly say that they in no way are strong enough to be viable in a truly competitive environment. Sensory is only useful as a third chamber; anything before that and you're only weakening yourself in the name of "diversity."
Decent marines will know enough to check for lurking skulks, cloaking or no. And if the skulks are hiding out close enough to the base, the observatory will decloak them anyway. If not... hey, you're willing to let the marines build and upgrade their base unopposed? Fine by me; an alien team that doesn't harass the marine base has already lost, no matter how good its ninja skulks are. That means you're allowing the marines access to upgrades that will insure that when you do go after them, they'll plow you down and march right into your hive with very little losses. Paranoia can only take you so far; once the marines know enough to conquer their fear, you'll have very little actual bite.
I agree that the 3 chambers <i>should</i> be equally viable for different playstyles, but as of right now they are <b>not.</b> Ninja skulks and hit-and-run cloak/scent fades are in <i>no</i> way as useful as their DC/MC counterparts. Sure, you can blink in and slowly whack and regen, but why do that when you can simply pound the base with nearly nonstop acid rockets and kill marines to boot? SC-backed players simply can't do as much damage as MC-backed ones can, and playing silly games with the marines is useful only in the name of diversity, nothing more. A direct, aggressive assault is still the best option if your main goal is to <i>win.</i>
I would <i>love</i> to see sensory beefed up a bit so that it became a tempting alternative to the second or even first chamber, but that entails some fairly serious changes. Please don't suggest that it's strong enough to compete with the other two as-is; that is flat-out <b>wrong,</b> as has been proved again and again and again on the various chamber order threads on this forum. If I hear one more "one chamber is as good as the other" statement I'm going to scream, because while it sounds pretty, it's flat out <b>false!</b> There's <b>ONE</b> order that works best, and while I'd <i>like</i> it to not be true, the fact of the matter is that that's the way it <i>is;</i> denying that is just wistful thinking. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Listen to Alarik! The bottom line is, sensory <b>does not work</b> in a fiercely competitive environment, where playing for diversity will cause your team to lose. It's not that we're not willing to try new strategies, it's that we have and have found that one strategy is simply <i>more effective</i> than another, period, end of story! This means that changes must take place before the sensory strategy becomes as effective as the others.