(NS2 STATS) Average Tech Timings - Discuss

NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,375 Advanced user
edited February 17 in NS2 General Discussion
In the spoiler below I have included a large table that shows average tech timings. Averages are a statistic that are sometimes as misleading as it is useful. This table will not tell you what the most common build order is. It does not tell you the frequency of the tech. It most certainly does not tell you the optimal tech path. It only tells you the average time something was completed. For the more technical oriented, the early and late timings are the first and third quartile timings. The data comes from NS2+. You may notice some odd things in the table. According to the data, prototype labs are built on average before the advanced armory is researched.I could speculate why this is but I do not want to. Despite the imperfection of this table, I decided this was interesting enough to share. Or maybe I am just bored and want to see how these forums respond to this data.

Discuss.
FJLL4Uq.png

When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
Post edited by Nordic on
BicsumBlrgtwilitebluecooliticSupaFredThe_Welsh_WizardJamezorgmeatmachineSquishpokePOOPFACEVetinari
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,375 Advanced user
    I didn't want to speculate, but that shouldn't stop you guys. Discuss it guys. Don't be silent. I need some entertainment. Give me my fix.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    BestProfileNamecoolitic
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,514 Advanced user
    What's up with the sentries? Huge gaps between each one. Is there a sentry strat where they are built on floating res of another build order?

    I mean, if I'm gonna build sentries (rare), I'm gonna plop all three at once.
    I HATE GORGES
    BeigeAlertcoolitic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,280 Advanced user
    Average first extractor at 0:40 seems really high, doesn't it?
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    meatmachine
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 4,264 Advanced user
    I find it odd that the Average Harvester (1:18) is so close to Late harvester (1:23), and yet early harvester is only (0:54).

    I suspect this, along with the extractor @F0rdPrefect pointed out is due to different distances to initial res on the maps. Early would indicate a much closer res point on a map, where most are of a greater distance.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,336 Advanced user
    Its not odd at all.
    marines run to RT, hopefully one builds are the rest move on.

    All the while on alien, you wait for your cyst chain to grow, your drifter to build your harvester. Also is delayed if no gorge helps it up, or if your comm did not instant drop the drifter.

    Aliens just have a slower start, its nothing to worry about. Its been like this like forever.
    Mouse.trixX.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,375 Advanced user
    Average first extractor at 0:40 seems really high, doesn't it?

    To be clear, it is the first one built outside base. I think everyone understood that, but clarity is good.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    .trixX.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 447 Advanced user
    edited February 18


    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    I find it odd that the Average Harvester (1:18) is so close to Late harvester (1:23), and yet early harvester is only (0:54).

    I suspect this, along with the extractor @F0rdPrefect pointed out is due to different distances to initial res on the maps. Early would indicate a much closer res point on a map, where most are of a greater distance.



    It appears odd at first, but we could borrow Bacillus' point below and extrapolate it to harvesters:
    Bacillus wrote: »
    I know you said you don't want to speculate, but I think one pretty reasonable explanation is that you get to build the prototype lab only if you're doing well. The advanced armory timing is dragged down by a big quantity of slower tech games that never end up getting to the proto lab phase. Meanwhile prototype lab appears in smaller quantity of games where the marines are almost always doing well and teching fast.

    Dota 2 has a lot of similar situations where some seemingly illogical items on some heroes have very high statistical winrates. This is because certain items only end up getting picked up if the game is already going very favourably in the first place and you want to snowball further ahead or finish the game in quick manner. That doesn't make them the overall best items on the heroes in most situations, but gives them amazing winrates nevertheless.

    My NS2 is very rusty though, please do correct me if I got something totally bonkers in the thought process there.


    Assuming late harvesters means harvesters beyond a high number, n (for .e.g above 4)
    Could be totally wrong though >.<<br>
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,375 Advanced user
    Assuming late harvesters means...
    The late values are all the third quarterly of time. I included it as late on the table to improve readability.

    I could have including timings up to 40+ RT's, but that would be too much information. I only included the first and second built extractors and harvesters outside of base.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,134 admin
    edited February 21
    It kinda bugs me that Aliens get to have 6 upgrade chambers, two hives, metab, leap, bile, PvE and multiple Oni.... 2-4 minutes before Marines get W3, Exos(A2), MG, JP etc - and it just happens to coincide with the average round time.

    A lot can happen in that amount of time.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 503 Advanced user
    Marines get a2/w2 at the same time the second hive comes up and a good five minutes before onos comes up.

    A lot can happen in that amount of time, especially if you are assuming "multiple oni" which means barely any fades or lerks.
    Nordic.trixX.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 462 Advanced user
    edited February 21
    Hmmmm...now I feel "fast" I like getting all 3 spurs by 1:20. The time between hive upgrade and shells/spurs is surprising. Why would people not get the second and third upgrade ASAP. They already invested the time and money into the hive upgrade why not get a better return on the investment and get all three spurs immediately.


    And 3rd hive before boneshield???!!

    At least people seem to be quick on bilebomb
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,280 Advanced user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    Hmmmm...now I feel "fast" I like getting all 3 spurs by 1:20. The time between hive upgrade and shells/spurs is surprising. Why would people not get the second and third upgrade ASAP. They already invested the time and money into the hive upgrade why not get a better return on the investment and get all three spurs immediately.


    And 3rd hive before boneshield???!!

    At least people seem to be quick on bilebomb

    They might be echoing harvesters around. As for the others... these are averages, edge cases might be distorting things.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,134 admin
    Aeglos wrote: »
    especially if you are assuming "multiple oni" which means barely any fades or lerks.
    You must not play a lot of pub games..
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    VetinariHandschuh
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,375 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    especially if you are assuming "multiple oni" which means barely any fades or lerks.
    You must not play a lot of pub games..

    As a normative statement, aliens should not typically be able to save for multiple oni. In my opinion it really speaks to the state of the game that this is not only possible, but advantageous. It is not an easy problem to address.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    IronHorseBestProfileNameHandschuh
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,134 admin
    Nordic wrote: »
    It is not an easy problem to address.
    Could always go the other route, and instead of fixing it directly (like Onos pres cost), just make Tier 3 Marine tech timing sooner so that it's a much greater risk for everyone to save up?
    I admit, I'd like for that to happen regardless, however.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    twiliteblueHandschuhcoolitic.trixX.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 447 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    It is not an easy problem to address.
    Could always go the other route, and instead of fixing it directly (like Onos pres cost), just make Tier 3 Marine tech timing sooner so that it's a much greater risk for everyone to save up?
    I admit, I'd like for that to happen regardless, however.

    Unfortunately there is such a mechanical skill discrepancy between the Onos and the Lerk/Fade that it really puts off scrubs. I know people who have played this game for ages and they will go skulk, gorge and onos, but rarely the other two. Not saying this is the only problem, of course...

    You'd hope you could just buff lerk/fade and nerf onos a little, but then good lerks and fades will too often shut down games completely.
    IronHorse.trixX.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 503 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Aeglos wrote: »
    especially if you are assuming "multiple oni" which means barely any fades or lerks.
    You must not play a lot of pub games..

    I only play pub games. That's why I know that players are more likely to go gorge than fade and lerk. But you skipped the important part as usual.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    It is not an easy problem to address.
    Could always go the other route, and instead of fixing it directly (like Onos pres cost), just make Tier 3 Marine tech timing sooner so that it's a much greater risk for everyone to save up?
    I admit, I'd like for that to happen regardless, however.

    Your solution to alien lifeforms becoming cheaper is to a) increase onos pres cost (already happened), b) lower marine tres costs. Typical.
    IronHorse
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members Posts: 447 Advanced user
    Yeah I mean, a lot of alien games don't even reach onos stage, and if you increase the pres cost I fear scrubs will just think, "man if it's that expensive it MUST be amazing", so I'm not sure that would do much. People need a greater incentive to play lerks and fades. Are there any stats on how often people choose these lifeforms? If so could we track the changes through the builds and point out why they're played less often now?
  • KarpmanKarpman Join Date: 2012-11-19 Member: 172488Members Posts: 61 Fully active user
    I can tell you why I rarely lerk and never fade: it's wayyyyy to risky. I'm so scared I'll die and lose all that res I don't even want to try. It takes practice to fade well, but you're only supposed to fade in the first place if you can fade well, so it's a catch 22. I feel like I can contribute much more to the team by gorging and scout/RT harass as a skulk.

    I just now realized how badly I want to try that fade game in the training menu.

    About the stats, can the timing list be separated by W/L for both teams?
    Before you can seek answers, you must first know the right questions.
    Vetinarisoccerguy243
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 208 Advanced user
    edited February 23
    People dont understand how important these lifeforms are, so you simply need to remind them how a good lifeformdistribution looks like.. there were already tons of suggestions in this forum..

    Reminding them at 18/35 res that they have faderes... lerks who go lerk at 35 res are mostly throwing the game as well and they rather go onos next time
    meatmachine
  • TinCanTinCan Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Members Posts: 358 Advanced user
    As a casual pub only player: I avoid playing Lerk and Fade because I fear dying in a flash.

    Here is the answer -> Reduce the cost to re-evolve into that higher life form after a death. Maybe have the cost slowly rise as time goes on.
    The_Welsh_WizardHandschuhcoolitic
  • greenhorsegreenhorse Join Date: 2014-11-11 Member: 199605Members Posts: 7 Fully active user
    TinCan wrote: »
    As a casual pub only player: I avoid playing Lerk and Fade because I fear dying in a flash.

    Here is the answer -> Reduce the cost to re-evolve into that higher life form after a death. Maybe have the cost slowly rise as time goes on.

    something like:

    If you lived as a lerk just a minute you get 3/4 of what you paid for it back when you die.
    If you lived only 2 min you get 50% back when you die.
    If you are good and lived say 5 min you don't get anything back after death.
    The_Welsh_Wizardcooliticsoccerguy243
  • KarpmanKarpman Join Date: 2012-11-19 Member: 172488Members Posts: 61 Fully active user
    I disagree TC. Killing a fade is supposed to be kind of a big deal. They are deadly and impossible to chase down, so killing one feels like a "Hell yea!" moment for rines. Reduce cost to re-evolve and you risk winding up with chaining fades, which is OP and un-fun. Also, I think it's good to have some high risk/high reward gameplay. Effective fades should be seen as elite.
    Before you can seek answers, you must first know the right questions.
    coolitic
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 90 Advanced user
    If you limited exos and onos to a max # per team 3/3 or something that scales /w server size would that work, or would it just be a mess?
  • KarpmanKarpman Join Date: 2012-11-19 Member: 172488Members Posts: 61 Fully active user
    G_Lock wrote: »
    If you limited exos and onos to a max # per team 3/3 or something that scales /w server size would that work, or would it just be a mess?

    I think it would be a mess. It would be really good for balance, but locking players out of major gameplay options because other players got their first is generally not a good idea. I.E. "This %&^!% took my onos!"
    Before you can seek answers, you must first know the right questions.
    coolitic
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 90 Advanced user
    edited February 23
    Honestly i'd be ok with someone throwing a tantrum because they don't get what they want (for that one game, i'm sure they'll get an onos/exo slot on another match) if it would truly be "really good for balance"...

    Would probably be better for alien side anyways because you'd force people to learn other lifeforms, instead of falling on the onos crutch every game just because they can.
    twilitebluecoolitic
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members Posts: 462 Advanced user
    I find lerk and fade to role specific for PUB play. If you fade you are reliant on your team to bite RT's, PG's, etc... the higher structure DPS of skulk gorge and onos allows for good players to offset bad players not hitting res.



    Side note, while K/D doesn't matter to most, kills per second should.. My skulk K/S keeps up with Hobbes lerk...(and my lerk/fade < Hobbes lerk). IMO Skill ceiling on skulk keeps skulks relevant for the entire round.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,134 admin
    edited February 25
    @Aeglos

    While I can see how my comment might've provoked you, it was intended to be humorous.
    Going forward I'd appreciate it if you toned down your sass.. it's not appreciated and not welcome, and I'll do my best to keep things professional when interacting with you as well.

    You are incorrect that the Onos price has been increased.
    Onos cost is the same as it's always been... Proportionally. When the pres income rates were increased, the price of the onos remained the same, meaning it was cheaper/quicker to get. Then the price was increased to match the exact timing that an onos would have prior to said income rate increase - thus, the value of an Onos remains the same.
    So yes, there's room to increase the price further, as it hasn't been done in many years. But like I said, I'm not sure its the best route.


    Also,
    1) the problem is not alien costs being cheaper? Where did you even get that from? If anything that'd imply a higher likelihood of non onos lifeforms.
    2) the "important part" in your prior comment was you conflating W2/A2 with Oni?? That tech is pretty well timed with fades, as it should be. IDK Why you ignored and shrugged off the point regarding tier 3 timing between the teams with a non sequitur.

    "The problem" is that lerks and fades are harder to play / easier to die with than an onos - coupled with the power output of that lifeform and the get-out-of-jail-free card that boneshield is, along with improperly timed Marine tier 3 tech... it's really no wonder why onos explosions are a thing, and quite viable.
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 503 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    You are incorrect that the Onos price has been increased.
    Onos cost is the same as it's always been... Proportionally. When the pres income rates were increased, the price of the onos remained the same, meaning it was cheaper/quicker to get. Then the price was increased to match the exact timing that an onos would have prior to said income rate increase - thus, the value of an Onos remains the same.
    So yes, there's room to increase the price further, as it hasn't been done in many years. But like I said, I'm not sure its the best route.

    Also,
    1) the problem is not alien costs being cheaper? Where did you even get that from? If anything that'd imply a higher likelihood of non onos lifeforms.

    So exactly what I said?

    Onos timing is the same as it has always been, except that time when pres rates were increased. Then Onos cost was increased to revert to the previous timing. But the problem is alien costs being cheaper. Onos explosions started then and it hasn't stopped, because the lifeform stagger has been decreased. Yes, there are less non onos lifeforms, but for the carry players, they can evolve and reevolve earlier so as to buy the time.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    2) the "important part" in your prior comment was you conflating W2/A2 with Oni?? That tech is pretty well timed with fades, as it should be. IDK Why you ignored and shrugged off the point regarding tier 3 timing between the teams with a non sequitur.

    "The problem" is that lerks and fades are harder to play / easier to die with than an onos - coupled with the power output of that lifeform and the get-out-of-jail-free card that boneshield is, along with improperly timed Marine tier 3 tech... it's really no wonder why onos explosions are a thing, and quite viable.

    Your logic was that aliens can do a lot in the timing difference between Onos and marine tech. My counter point was that marines have a similar advantage at an earlier point.

    And no. The problem isn't that onos is so much more powerful than lerks and fades or the previous onos. The problem is that you can get to the point that you can legitimately have multiple onos as you don't have to commit to getting as many lerks and fades.
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