The Numbers
Kitsune
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
<div class="IPBDescription">All Kharaa vs. TSA balance should read.</div> I've put up a webpage with nice, neat tables for the current, double-checked with the help of volunteers information around weapon damage and armor effectiveness for both teams. I was surprised at some of the findings, especially the grenade damage part, but be assured that over the course of a night and an afternoon, we tested all of it, on two separate 1.03 servers.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>The page is here.</a>
Spore cloud, bile bomb, and xenocide were omitted, since it was difficult to pin down an exact number for area attacks that didn't involve a visible projectile. Likewise, Leap and Charge weren't put in there because of the nebulous nature of their damage.
So for anyone who cares to make a point towards this or that being imbalanced, here are hard, confirmed numbers that you can point to rather than make any vague generalizations.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>The page is here.</a>
Spore cloud, bile bomb, and xenocide were omitted, since it was difficult to pin down an exact number for area attacks that didn't involve a visible projectile. Likewise, Leap and Charge weren't put in there because of the nebulous nature of their damage.
So for anyone who cares to make a point towards this or that being imbalanced, here are hard, confirmed numbers that you can point to rather than make any vague generalizations.
Comments
It is counter-intuitive that this upgrade has 150% efficiency for a Lvl4 alien, but only 66% efficiency for a Lvl5 alien.
This is the only dent in an otherwise linear armour system.
I think this is mostly tested on 1.02, which is out of date and wrong now, making it uh, worthless <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flaw: 'Standard' Skulks do not have 90 health. They have 70HP/10AP. That's 80. Armor gives no reduction in the damage done, it just gives you more capacity for punishment. Carapace 1 raises this to 70/30, totalling 100, not 124.6. Again, the percentage 'absorbed' is not reduced from the damage done, it's the amount that the ARMOR soaks of the damage. You're out of AP in v1.03, you're taking full damage to health alone. The 'damage reduction' stuff was in v1.02, due to a bug with the Aliens' armor.
It looks like the figures were written up using v1.02 math (actually, it's assured that it was using v1.02 math if you take a look at the 'shots to kill' table.. 9 shots with an LMG at no carapace, 18 with. THAT is the alien armor bug, where it would keep 'taking' damage off AP, even if you didn't have any left.. essentially making it a 'freebie' reduction in damage).
My apologies, but I must assert that these figures are incorrect for v1.03, even if it's been SAID that they've been tested on two seperate v1.03 servers.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
No offense, but are you sure you have your facts straight?
From what I understand (from multiple sources), there is a 50% modifier to damage done to armor in all versions, not as a bug.
The "bug in Aliens' armor" is something else that never had anything to do with standard skulks.
Believe me, I spent a few hours checking and double-checking, that is how it works.
And that is why a 70/10 Skulk has a total of 90 health. Since armor takes damage at half the speed of bare flesh, those ten points last for twenty points of damage. If you don't have faith in the results I got, I invite you to take a few shots at a friend and see if he doesn't die when my chart says he will.
[Edit: I'll show my math, while I'm at it.
20/.3=66.7 [10 points of armor (effectively 20) absorbing 30% of damage will last for 66.7 dam]
66.7*.7=46.7 [The remaining 70% of that damage causes 46.7 damage to health.]
70-46.7=23.3 [That leaves 23.3 health once all armor is gone.]
66.7+23.3=90 [Amount armor took + amount left for bare health to take is 90 total health.]
For Carapace 3:
60/.6=100 [Damage to bring armor to 0.]
100*.4=40 [Damage health sustains during the above.]
70-40=30 [Health left over.]
HOWEVER, there is one more step, since while the armor was there, 30% damage was taken off.
100/.7=142.9 [Since it's only taking 70% damage.]
142.9+30=172.9
X*{(10*0,6)/2} = 150. You get that X = 50, which means that you need a clib to remove the armor from the fade. If you then take 50 * 0.4, you will find out that this is 200, and that removes the hp of the fade. So theoreticlly a clip of non upped lmg should bring down a fade after the armor fix if I got the armor-system right.
If I put it in normal english, how can the total-hp (hp+ap) go over 500 if maxhp is 200 and maxap is 150?? That doesn't make sense.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <<<b>CHOMPEH!!</b>>> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's why 1.03's bug fix of not giving the Kharaa that negation without any armor has a minimal effect. In fact, it only affects Skulks and Onos, since the other three breeds either die before the armor is gone, or die at the exact point of the armor vanishing. For Skulks the change is neglible, thirty health taking thirty less percent damage makes a whole whopping 12.9 points more before they drop, or one extra LMG shot. Onos, on the other hand, still have 233.3 health left when their armor dies, and if that health were only taking 70% damage, that's 100 additional points.
Thanks for the all the hard work and algebra! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is most obvious for Lerk - a lerk dies to 30 unupgraded LMG shots, but 20 LMG shots for upgrades 1,2 and three. Not 22,20,18,17.
What you need to do is to calculate what each shot does, then drop the fractions on the health part.
Example, an unupgraded LMG does 2/2.1 hits to a lvl 3 carap alien.
Thus, a lvl 3 carap fade hit with 50 LMG bullets looses 100 health and 105 armor. Armor is completly gone after 72 shots, leaving the Fade at 50 health, and dead at 77 shots - not the 71 shown.
Do note that a pistol does NOT have this strange jump - it does 5/4.2, or 2.5 times more damage to health than an LMG. Which is why the pistol is such a powerful weapon.
Counting pistol shots and then doubling doesn't work. Trust me, I tried it as well.
There's a few things you need to bear in mind when reading it tho:
* Shotguns generally don't hit with 100% of their payload. Usually considerably less unless the alien is at close range and holding still - which it generally doesn't do.
* TSA weapon damage may seem weak on a per shot basis, but they make up for it to an extent with a high rate of fire.
* Area Of Effect damage not really taken into account when considering overall effectiveness.
That last one is the primarily reason aliens are cleaning everybody's clocks as of 1.03. All of a sudden, bile bomb, acid rocket, and xenocide are doing better damage being the AOE is working better. Only problem is, the balance wasn't at all adjusted from how much damage it did in 1.02 when the AOE wasn't working right yet things were reasonably balanced.
What was the number of grens needed to kill a Lvl 3 Carapace Onos?
18?
And that's if you have the skill to hit him moving with each shot and reloading 4 times, not taking into account the 1 second mouse-click-to-grenade-launch delay...
For 33 Rp's the grenade launcher needs a little attention in 1.04 IMHO.
Also, don't forget that most alien attacks are melee while most marine attacks are longrange. So aliens are SUPPOSED to have higher attack dmg at close range and therefor murder marines. This is balanced by the marines longrange and very high ROF guns.
Also, you forgot about the gorge's healing spray. It does hurt (and pretty well I might add) marines.
Why did you leave out bile bomb and acid rocket? They do have visible projectiles. They look like ice cream cones. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
To me, this data means nothing. Numbers don't prove anything unless its standing still and you hit with all of your attacks.
If you do go by numbers, then a single marine can take out at least 3 skulks by himself with a unupgraded LMG. This tells me that MARINES are overpowered because they can kill at least 3 skulks before anyone of the skulks can reach him.
In conculsion, the game is balanced and no numbers will ever change that. Test and make fancy tables all you want, but any true and knowledgeable gamer will know that numbers prove nothing.
According to Flayra the target is for games lasting about 20-30 minutes. No longer.
Five hours is an exception. A fun one though, even though we lost (as marines).
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<i>Unknown</i>
<b>Also, don't forget that most alien attacks are melee while most marine attacks are longrange. So aliens are SUPPOSED to have higher attack dmg at close range and therefor murder marines. This is balanced by the marines longrange and very high ROF guns.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all true. . . who said anything to the contrary?
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Why did you leave out bile bomb and acid rocket? They do have visible projectiles. They look like ice cream cones. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, I see acid rocket in the table.
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To me, this data means nothing. Numbers don't prove anything unless its standing still and you hit with all of your attacks.
If you do go by numbers, then a single marine can take out at least 3 skulks by himself with a unupgraded LMG. This tells me that MARINES are overpowered because they can kill at least 3 skulks before anyone of the skulks can reach him.
In conculsion, the game is balanced and no numbers will ever change that. Test and make fancy tables all you want, but any true and knowledgeable gamer will know that numbers prove nothing. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember that Kitsune is not presenting his table to persuade the reader of any particular view towards balance. He's providing facts, not arguments. He's doing this in the hopes that people will make fewer errors when referring to the damage of weapon X versus target Y. Please don't preempt a discussion on balance in this thread.
In a computer game, numbers are, if not everything, <i>almost</i> everything. There are certain basic quantities-- the damage of an LMG, the cost of an Onos, the health points of a Skulk-- that everyone must work with. The relevance of these numbers doesn't rely on any underlying assumptions. So it's a little rash to say that "no numbers will ever change that" (as an extreme example, suppose heavy machineguns only cost 1 RP. Isn't this a "number thing?" Would you still argue the game was balanced?)
Inferences from these numbers (like how many LMG shots it takes to kill a Skulk), though, do make certain assumptions of varying degrees of realism. You're right-- Kitsune's shots-to-kill table depends on every shot hitting. Is this realistic? Not really. But what else would you have him do? Assume that only 80% of the shots hit? 50%? Faced without a compelling reason to pick a specific percentage, it makes sense to assume that all of the shots hit, for the purposes of compiling this table. At least you now know the <b>minimum</b> number of times you need to fire, which is very helpful information. . . .
You're absolutely right that many things may affect game balance that are hard to quantify, like accuracy, aiming ability of the player, etc.. A table of numbers will never be able to say anything useful about these factors. But the factors still act on the basic quantities--no matter how well you aim, you still have only 50 bullets in that LMG magazine. No matter how much teamwork you use, a Fade will still do 60 damage against you with his acid rocket. This is not to say the factors aren't important, because they are. But there is still a lot of relevance in the numbers Kitsune presented, and they shouldn't be dismissed just because they leave out the intangibles.