why is having high ping an advantage in this game?

555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Auto Verified
i regularly see people with 300+ ping topfragging because the netcode is designed in a way that you can shoot people around corners because they still see you there

this is literally the only fps game ever made where people with 300+ ping can even compete, and in a lot of situations actually gives you an advantage
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  • F0rdPrefectF0rdPrefect Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,088 Auto Verified
    I actually experience quite the opposite. I get hitches and warping when my ping is high (which, unfortunately, happens often). I also get killed around corners more.
    Furthermore, the NS2WC showed that a low ping actually gives marines a huge advantage.

    Considering this and the veil thread: Are you a troll?
    aka Vetinari

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  • 555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Auto Verified
    i just bitch a lot after losing games =( ill try to keep it off the forums lol
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 13,676 Auto Verified
    555 wrote: »
    i just bitch a lot after losing games =( ill try to keep it off the forums lol

    Dammit 555, I was already handing out the pitchforks and torches :worried:

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,237 Auto Verified
    Having a high ping creates more issues for the high ping person than the low ping people. Having a high ping does allow you to abuse peekers advantage more if you know how, but this is not why they are doing so well. They would probably do even better with low ping.

    To learn about peekers advantage check out some youtube videos.
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=peekers+advantage
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  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 38 Auto Verified
    I've seen player deliberately lagging themselves in engaments in order to become unkillable due to warping.
    [The simulate lag function in the engine locked behind sv_cheats imo]
  • 555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Auto Verified
    edited September 2016
    are you sure they werent using the unstuck command to teleport a few feet? i've never seen anyone teleporting, but people shoot me when i run around corners all the time because they have 300+ ping and i guess still see me when i've moved behind a wall
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,564 Auto Verified
    Having high ping doesn't feel like an advantage to me, with over 150 ping it feels like there is a half a second to a second delay between my shots being registered and by then I am usually killed by a skulk 5 feet away.
    NordicSupaFredcooliticIronHorse
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members Posts: 69 Auto Verified
    edited September 2016
    depends i'd say:
    Post edited by Absurdon on
    SantaClaws
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 38 Auto Verified
    555 wrote: »
    are you sure they werent using the unstuck command to teleport a few feet? i've never seen anyone teleporting, but people shoot me when i run around corners all the time because they have 300+ ping and i guess still see me when i've moved behind a wall

    No im talking about using net_lag command in combination with erratic movement to throw off the prediction/lag compensation of the engine.
    Makes a retreating fade invincible.
  • Me9aMe9a Join Date: 2008-03-27 Member: 63981Members Posts: 85 Auto Verified
    well having 300 ping like bruno could be pretty good in some situations:

    1) Australia (Bruno) to the Server in (us_east or mid Eu) to Cr4zy in the UK. (should be around 250-300 ping on Brunos side and probly 20-100 from Cr4zy)



    2) Australia (Bruno) to the Server in (us_east or mid Eu) to Frozen in the Usa (should be around 200-250 ping on Brunos side and probly 30-120 from Frozen)



    So having a High ping you can land shots you should have never made on the screen on the other end of the world.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,044 admin
    barnie wrote: »
    555 wrote: »
    are you sure they werent using the unstuck command to teleport a few feet? i've never seen anyone teleporting, but people shoot me when i run around corners all the time because they have 300+ ping and i guess still see me when i've moved behind a wall

    No im talking about using net_lag command in combination with erratic movement to throw off the prediction/lag compensation of the engine.
    Makes a retreating fade invincible.

    Those are cheat protected, so it's not really a problem?

    @Absurdon I've played with that guy before, its frustrating as hell as he is using a satellite connection... which means the BEST case scenario is 600-1000 added latency. (28k miles into space and then back)
    Ideally, NS2 should be adjusted to allow lag compensation up until about 220 ms... anything over that should require the player to predict like the days of old MP games, as the rest of us shouldn't have to deal with that level of a poor connection.

    And everyone who feels like HPB's have an advantage.. remember that it's only while they are the attacker - if they are running away from you, or if you are attacking, you have that large advantage.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    coolitic
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members Posts: 69 Auto Verified
    edited September 2016
    not my video by the way it's made by @Locklear afaik. and all i was saying is: it depends. sometimes high ping is advantage sometimes it'S not. There is no such thing as "it's always" neither bad nor good. but something that's always fcks u up is ping spikes or heavily fluctuating ping (i'd say more than 20ms depending on how hight it already is) cause then ur game starts to act weird because of the compensation. u might xperience rubberbanding and/or major lagging/warping.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 103 Auto Verified
    edited September 2016
    I think highping has far more disadvantages ... having played with an unstable connection for a while I could kill some marines due to my warp or kill lifeforms around the corner.. but to sum it up your survival rate is drastically lower... even if I kill 10 skulks in a single run I needed the double amounts of medpacks..
    I don't notice immediately when peopple shoot at me which is quite devastating..., even if I do a perfect shotgun hit or track perfectly I still get hit one more time then I usually would... it made me simply more defensive and trying to have maximum distance at all times as marine...

    So the people with high ping may actually be far better than you and simply play as defensively or cowardly as possible.. for example use others as human shields.. if you know what you're getting into.. just kill them before they come close to you :) ambushing a high pinger is often the best option
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 531 Auto Verified
    edited September 2016
    High ping is an advantage if you're used to it.

    If you aren't used to it then of course your gameplay is going to suffer.

    Those who are used to it know how to play (like being super aggressive) to get the lag to work for them.

    In my experiences with NS2 it's extremely common to see a 300+ ping player with 30-40+ kills and less than half a dozen deaths... as they teleport around more than the crew of the starship Enterprise...
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  • bs_bs_ Join Date: 2014-04-08 Member: 195245Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 24 Auto Verified
    Me9a wrote: »
    well having 300 ping like bruno could be pretty good in some situations:

    1) Australia (Bruno) to the Server in (us_east or mid Eu) to Cr4zy in the UK. (should be around 250-300 ping on Brunos side and probly 20-100 from Cr4zy)

    2) Australia (Bruno) to the Server in (us_east or mid Eu) to Frozen in the Usa (should be around 200-250 ping on Brunos side and probly 30-120 from Frozen)

    So having a High ping you can land shots you should have never made on the screen on the other end of the world.

    rekt tbh
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,554 mod
    The rule is simple - the more lagged you are, the more aggressive you must play. If _you_ move around the corner and surprise the opponent, then _you_ have the "total latency + 200"ms before they can react. If you wait behind the corner ... well.

    It follows that if you are low lagged but _fighting_ high-lagged players, the same thing is true - be aggressive. In a high-lag fight, the more aggressive attacker wins.

    Also note that damage only becomes real when your packets actually reaches the server. So the lower-lagged player will have an advantage because his damage reaches the server before the high-lag player does - and if you are dead by the time your hits gets registered by the server, they are discarded.

    Do note that this assumes only high latency. High variation/loss can cause very erratic behavior - freezing/teleporting - which can make a target very hard to track. Theoretically, that could be fixed by tracking previous state and smoothing it into the new state, but ... lots of work and these days so few have that bad connections so it isn't really worth doing it.

    Bw, it is kinda fun to dynamically adjust the size of the interp buffer (how far behind the server updates you are running, default 100ms); if you increase it smoothly with time you can get a slow-motion effect/matrix bullet time thing so you get more time to hit stuff.

    Kinda fun but not very good for the game; dynamically adjusting your lag so you can freeze that alien before the corner and then leisurely line up your rail gun on a non-moving target ... nah. Kinda OP.

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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 4,178 Auto Verified
    matso wrote: »

    Bw, it is kinda fun to dynamically adjust the size of the interp buffer (how far behind the server updates you are running, default 100ms); if you increase it smoothly with time you can get a slow-motion effect/matrix bullet time thing so you get more time to hit stuff.

    Kinda fun but not very good for the game; dynamically adjusting your lag so you can freeze that alien before the corner and then leisurely line up your rail gun on a non-moving target ... nah. Kinda OP.

    @matso - Sounds like one of my favorite old mods - The Specialists :)

    How do I code this in exactly, lol :P
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  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,554 mod
    Ah, you need to hack the engine a bit. Not very difficult - the interp buffer is already a variable so you just need to add some support to actually set it from lua.

    Oh, and you need to tell the server how much interp buffer each move is actually using, otherwise the server assumes 100ms, so your carefully lined up shot will miss with miles.

    And then the server needs to save a lot more world states to allow it to go further back into history when it runs a frame ... that can actually be a problem for a 32-bit program, now that I think of it. Had a bit of a issue when I played around with that; the server ran out of memory when I adjusted it to save 3 seconds worth of world state.

    So would have to wait for the 64 bit rewrite, I guess.
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  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 318 Auto Verified
    edited October 2016
    Hey Matso, do you know why somtimes client-side interp goes to 200ms? and does it have anything to do with FPS or rendering spikes?

    I just wondered because somtimes i go into console and see client interp 200 and wonder if thats the reason i was playing like trash.

    and do you know when we'll be able to set client side moverate? or individual network commands?

    edit:Also matso-kun can you fix demo playback/recording. playing back with less then 60fps causes slow motion and recording with a specific resolution means you need to play it back with same ratio as recorded in ie: 4:3 record @4:3 playback resolutions Thanks! surely these can be fixed before revamped dream playback system is implemented (kiss)
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  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members Posts: 415 Auto Verified
    edited January 2
    because they still haven't fixed the netcode by limiting the maximum lag compensation to a reasonable level

    high ping marines still do a ton of damage to aliens before they even get notified of damage and before they can respond appropriately and save their lifeforms.

    it goes the other way too, but the game doesn't stop working if aliens happen to perform well in melee combat by sneaking up on a marine. that's supposed to happen.

    the default marine weapon shouldn't be an accurate ranged weapon. maybe they could give different starting guns to different players based on their latency.

    and maybe aliens with high latency should be a little bit louder or something so they can't ambush and get a ton of damage in before marines even realize they're in the room.

    i don't play NS2 enough anymore to know the exact best way to do that because every time i revisit the game i get frustrated at the awful netcode and stop playing. all i know is that it's been a problem since forever has only gotten worse as servers need players from the entire world to stay populated. they should look at reducing the frequency of the issue from a game design POV because it doesn't look like they're going to improve the netcode+latencies
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 469 Auto Verified
    edited January 2
    biz wrote: »
    because they still haven't fixed the netcode by limiting the maximum lag compensation to a reasonable level

    high ping marines still do a ton of damage to aliens before they even get notified of damage and before they can respond appropriately and save their lifeforms.

    it goes the other way too, but the game doesn't stop working if aliens happen to perform well in melee combat by sneaking up on a marine. that's supposed to happen.

    the default marine weapon shouldn't be an accurate ranged weapon. maybe they could give different starting guns to different players based on their latency.

    and maybe aliens with high latency should be a little bit louder or something so they can't ambush and get a ton of damage in before marines even realize they're in the room.

    i don't play NS2 enough anymore to know the exact best way to do that because every time i revisit the game i get frustrated at the awful netcode and stop playing. all i know is that it's been a problem since forever has only gotten worse as servers need players from the entire world to stay populated. they should look at reducing the frequency of the issue from a game design POV because it doesn't look like they're going to improve the netcode+latencies

    Boohoohoo. And the high pingers have to face that same threat from everyone on the server. And as their hits register later, they are at a disadvantage in a direct confrontation.

    I'm curious as to how you expect UWE to improve latencies. Are they going to build the infrastructure so that everyone has a direct connection to the server? Are they going to pay for the best possible routing? I'm sure that will be very helpful although it will still be limited by sheer distance. I'm sure they can "improve netcode" by making it unplayable for people with high ping, although I'm unsure if even that will be a "reasonable level" for you. I'm also sure it will kill off a lot of servers. Maybe they should make this a turn based game. That will solve the ping issue.

    Edit - Actually, they can put silence back to shade or just remove it entirely. Will solve a lot of problems with ping.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,044 admin
    Even if you took out the intentional and necessary 100 ms interp delay and magically had a tickrate and sendrate of 2048 (compared to 30 and 20 respectively) like no game has ever had before - to essentially remove all inferior engine/game factors from the equation regardless of how unrealistic it is - you'd still be limited by your own latency to the server itself as well as the other player's latency to the server, and then back again to each of you.. so with both of you ~100 ms latency to the server, you'd still be experiencing 200+ ms latency - roughly the average human reaction time.

    This includes propagation speeds through wires that are fast, but still not as fast as light, even if it were fiber optics throughout the entire route from you to the server. (cutting slower copper out of the equation for arguments sake - even though it's entirely unrealistic) This is because encoded signals have a lot of overhead. There is a lot of extra data transmitted with error correction, routing information, encryption and other protocol data in addition to the raw data. This overhead also slows down data throughput.
    And then there's another slowdown from the amount of traffic on a network that can slow down the overall system speed as data gets dropped, collisions occur and data has to be resent.
    And even then if networks around the world improve with new standards and new technology both physically and software wise, you're still limited by the speed of light. (which would only be about 36% faster than these impractical dream scenarios I've painted anyways.)

    Essentially.. the scenario of true, instantaneous 1:1 realtime representation between two distant players is physically impossible until we harness quantum entanglement computing to achieve FTL communications.
    Just food for thought, there.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 975 Auto Verified
    edited January 22
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Essentially.. the scenario of true, instantaneous 1:1 realtime representation between two distant players is physically impossible until we harness quantum entanglement computing to achieve FTL communications.
    Just food for thought, there.
    So what are we talking here, 5-10 years from now? I'm not sure if I'll be playing by then. FeelsBadMan :((( How can we speed up the development of this technology?!

    Do you have a kickstarter?
  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 57 Auto Verified
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,044 admin
    Hehe.. there's actually a disagreement right now whether it can even be used TO communicate.. because while you can measure entangled protons across distances, forcing them to change state actually breaks the connection. Its avoidance to actually transfer information is supposedly a very deep property of quantum entanglement.
    So at best, we're only at that theoretical stage of hopes and dreams, with no other avenue to pursue other than Negative Matter (an exotic form of matter that's never been seen)

    Sorry :)
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    coolitic
  • F0rdPrefectF0rdPrefect Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,088 Auto Verified
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Hehe.. there's actually a disagreement right now whether it can even be used TO communicate.. because while you can measure entangled protons across distances, forcing them to change state actually breaks the connection. Its avoidance to actually transfer information is supposedly a very deep property of quantum entanglement.
    So at best, we're only at that theoretical stage of hopes and dreams, with no other avenue to pursue other than Negative Matter (an exotic form of matter that's never been seen)

    Sorry :)

    There's not actually a disagreement here; It is not possible to use Quantum Entanglement for communication, because superluminal communication is forbidden by the principle of locality. Basically it doesn't work for exactly the reason you mentioned.
    aka Vetinari

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  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 523 Auto Verified
    I think IronHorse is right because he can write in blue color.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,044 admin
    @F0rdPrefect

    ehhh, in the traditional sense that quantum entanglement is used (from EPR and beyond), yes absolutely it is a fundamental restriction, despite claims that safely measuring can in fact change the state without breaking entanglement.. the issue then is a 50/50 probability.. which cannot be solved with the limited bandwidth in the application. Meaning, it can be used to communicate.. just not reliably. Similar to the behavior of a single photon shot at a mirror.. we cannot predict whether it will be absorbed, reflect, or pass through.

    Another interesting experiment going on is testing the limits of quantum noise, to determine how fast you can go without breaking causality.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    BestProfileName
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,237 Auto Verified
    edited January 22
    I think IronHorse is right because he can write in blue color.
    Anyone can write in any color.


    IronHorse, breaking causality doesn't even sound like science fiction, but more like fantasy. Causality may be studied within physics, but in my mind it is within a metaphysical realm. When I think of causality, I think of it in the framework of the Berserk graphic novel.
    In this world, is the destiny of mankind controlled by some transcendental entity or law? Is it like the hand of God hovering above? At least it is true that man has no control; even over his own will.
    http://berserk.wikia.com/wiki/Causality.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    coolitic
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