@Bicsum as far as we know atm, they only increased the size of the hitboxes. And as stated, EVERY shooter has exaggarated hitboxes, not just fast paced ones. It doesn't make it more "fit" for them.
Maybe because hitboxes that match the player model makes more sense? You know, hit where you point at?
I'm just trying to counter your argument about fast paced shooters benefiting from large hitboxes
EDIT:
Also they made the worst possible combo. Mesh geometry detail looks the same, so performance is still the same. Other shooters have dumbed down geometry, so they will probably have better performance. It's just SOOOO illogical what the devs are doing, I feel like bursting into tears
Maybe because hitboxes that match the player model makes more sense? You know, hit where you point at?
I'm just trying to counter your argument about fast paced shooters benefiting from large hitboxes
My assumption is that it seems to be good practise to use slightly bigger hitboxes in games with high movement speeds to further compensate for fps and latency lags, instead of just relying on interpolation and whatnot. If however, an expert would come around and tell me that Quake-like games soley rely on those cylinder hitboxes for performance and balance (because of differing model sizes) reasons and could do just fine with 1:1 model:hitbox in terms of hitreg, then i would drop that assumption.
Maybe because hitboxes that match the player model makes more sense? You know, hit where you point at?
I'm just trying to counter your argument about fast paced shooters benefiting from large hitboxes
My assumption is that it seems to be good practise to use slightly bigger hitboxes in games with high movement speeds to further compensate for fps and latency lags, instead of just relying on interpolation and whatnot. If however, an expert would come around and tell me that Quake-like games soley rely on those cylinder hitboxes for performance and balance (because of differing model sizes) reasons and could do just fine with 1:1 model:hitbox in terms of hitreg, then i would drop that assumption.
That's just it.. it feels better to not have so many of your hits not land, and you are definitely onto something regarding hitbox sizes vs speed of gameplay. Even in Quake 2 when there wasn't really a difference in models (there were only two models) yet the hitbox was large as well. Not so much for performance reasons. When Doom 3 used "pixel perfect" hitboxes, it felt like crap and everyone (including previewing journalists) expressed frustration with it. It was the largest complaint of Doom 3 multiplayer besides the darkness, that it just didn't feel good.
What most here dont realize (and you can verify for yourself in the viewer) is that the old hitboxes didn't cover certain portions of the model sometimes.. that's how tiny they there.
Bottom line is that they were insufficient even if the game wasn't incredibly fast.
To those saying it was done for hitreg purposes : No.. not really AFAIK.. It was a hopeful thought that it might help some of the edge case scenarios (where you're hitting the model but not the box) but really it was done because it just doesn't feel good to not hit what you're aiming at because your bullet is going through multiple legs 1mm next to the hitbox.
Faster games use larger hitboxes for a reason - and consider that said games even have FAR better server rates /interp than what ns2 uses - and if the game requires some fundamental balance changes to accompany it, I feel like it's worth it, both for less frustration /feeling better and lowering the skill floor.
^ this is why @IronHorse should lead the PDT :P Always nice, factual answers addressing our doubts. And personally, a post like this can actually sway my opinion.
Which brings me to this part:
it just doesn't feel good to not hit what you're aiming at because your bullet is going through multiple legs 1mm next to the hitbox.
The reverse could be also said; it doesn't feel right landing a hit when there's nothing there... But again, if this shift actually helps growing the playerbase, I'm all for it.
Btw, wouldn't making the hitbox geometry less complex have performance benefits? Or would that be negligible?
PelargirJoin Date: 2013-07-02Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
I can't answer. I'll play the game again when all those updates are done, to be able to experience a whole new game altogether instead of noticing how I play changing slowly. In the meantime, I'll keep an eye on the changelogs and on the forum.
(sarcasm) PS: I see plenty of graphs about general or specific data on NS2. @Nordic should make one about the crowd's reactions/fuss for each update. I see a trend. (/sarcasm)
(sarcasm) PS: I see plenty of graphs about general or specific data on NS2. @Nordic should make one about the crowd's reactions/fuss for each update. I see a trend. (/sarcasm)
Yeah, there's a complete science behind PR. It's a two-way relationship, so the crowd is not solely to blame.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I shall just copy paste my response from the patch notes topic.. because really.. this disaster.. this utter insane decision..
I saw a few comments on the NSL page and I did not believe it.
Truly did not believe that the devs would be that disconnected with anyone above 1200 elo.
Sadly I was wrong.
The old hitboxes were fine, just fine. If you missed, you missed. It was that simple. I would even argue it was easier to see hitreg issue in frame per frame footage because it matched the model.
I would argue NS2 was way ahead of the competition in regards to hitboxes.
Then I read this.
Now I accept, even agree that testing without telling us may prevent us from poluting the results.. But damn, has not a single person been paying attention?
Most skulks in pubs can not dodge a bullet if their live depended on it, and it does. Sadly this has even become worse in the last few months. Just recently I was talking with other servers ops on steam that its not balance but players playing so utter poor, that their skulk is just so bad, that you can not balance for that.
I got the question 'why are aliens losing even more then, nothing changed?'.
I could not give a answer, I did not know. While skulk skill had been insane abhorrently bad for a good while, it wasn't 'just now'.
And now I do know.. and I am utter amazed.
You have a pub scene where most experienced players left.
You have a pub scene which attracted many many rookies who haven't a inkling how to play skulk, and most have not any willingness to learn any time soon.
And your solution is to increase the hitbox and make this situation WORSE? REALLY?
In the past when you had a team filled with rookies vs rookies at least it sort of worked.
Carry a bit and you could, perhaps, manage to get a reasonable round out of it.. not good, reasonable.
Ive not had a reasonable round in weeks. Pubs been a complete wreck.
For the first time ever, I am really really trying to make a calm post in responds to a uwe patch notes release.. and im not even sure I am pulling it off.
I shall ask now the question, what are we doing this for?
Sure player retention is great and all but that surely includes the mid and top tier of players, not just the bottom rookies?
Before this update, I have found that if I am being shot at outside of bite range as a skulk, it wouldn't matter if my hitbox was slightly larger or smaller. I've made a mistake, and I'm either going to die or be wounded. The most frustrating part of being a skulk hasn't been when I'm at range. I have had no problem ambushing with silence/shades/vampirism. I can also silently wall climb outside of an approaching marine's view, regardless of upgrades. Sometimes marines can't respond anyway simply because they are already engaging another target. The biggest problem I have had as a skulk is when I get up close. Any marine worth his salt will dance around you for long enough to fully reload and finish the job. For a middle skill player, I think that this change will help me the most. Very slight inaccuracies in shooting will be forgiven, and biting will just make more sense. Essentially, problem spots for both teams were buffed. The hitboxes will probably need another trim, but I think these updates are a good change. Of course, I still need to get plenty of experience in, as I haven't played since the changes. Furthermore, input from other skill levels (esp competitive) needs to be received. Not in the form of ignorant shit-posting. In constructive feedback. From seeing this thread, I can see why the changes were slipped in instead of noted.
I can hardly wait another week of W:L stats. Aliens are still getting stomped 3/4 of the time. Maybe I'm just playing at unlucky time every night I fire up the game, but it's really disheartening.
I hope the devs really have a long term plan and are not just hacking around to see what-would-happen-if...
Not in the form of ignorant ****-posting. In constructive feedback. From seeing this thread, I can see why the changes were slipped in instead of noted.
Could you point me to real shiet-posting? I honestly don't see any flaming, only sarcasm. And that is to be expected, not because they kept quiet about the update, but because it's utter insanity without serious counter-balance. Which is not implemented atm
I think this change would have been more accepted if the server performance rates were increased also. The problem is, we still have a game that isn't as smooth as it could be, and people are just hitting more shots. I think people would be more open to that if the game felt smoother and they knew balance changes were coming. What I'm saying is, you should have waited till you increased the performance of the engine and servers before doing this (if it was even necessary at that point).
I think this change would have been more accepted if the server performance rates were increased also. The problem is, we still have a game that isn't as smooth as it could be, and people are just hitting more shots. I think people would be more open to that if the game felt smoother and they knew balance changes were coming. What I'm saying is, you should have waited till you increased the performance of the engine and servers before doing this (if it was even necessary at that point).
I don't understand how better performance could solve the problem with the new hitboxes. regardless of performance the hitboxes are just shi.t
@IronHorse what you pointed out about the skulk mesh is a nuisance. That angle applies like 10% of the time in engagements. Not a single player would be upset if you guys just fixed that part. Instead, you set out to completely change the balance without giving a counter-measure for the alien team. Pubs are a disaster. We even struggle on small 7on7 server most of the time. Marines casually walk around, while aliens have to sweat blood and organize perfectly to win a round.
And it DOES NOT make it easire for rookies. They have always had problems with the alien side, not the ranged marines. If anything, your retention of new players will be far worse now.
How could people want the hitboxes to have been smaller on the skulk??
They were already inside the model in multiple places??..
Or does that option just mean smaller skulk models, but keeping the old boxes? ... that option makes no sense to me.
It means exactly whats written. Smaller skulk models AND hitboxes. The fact that it makes no sense to you guys just proves that you're not capable at the game. Decisions coming from pple like that is incompetent at best... Sorry if your fairy land gets crushed by player feedback, but reality can be tough.
And I dont want to paint the devil on the wall, but it's capitalism. You want to make money, and we want to have a playable game, but you keep this up for even a bit longer, you'll loose the rest of the 300 avg players you had before 305...
They have always had problems with the alien side, not the ranged marines.
Sure, aliens are harder to learn.. but you can't tell me that rookies don't have accuracy rates like 8-12% as a marine. They may be familiar with CS but they don't need to track a high velocity leaping skulk in a dark/busy/chaotic environment in CS.
And you also can't tell me that the latest Pres changes haven't grossly changed the mid to late game where the requirement to kill lifeforms more has greatly increased.
On average, Marines just weren't able to kill aliens in that timeframe.
Aliens already had the upper hand since the beginning of June, as the graphs showed..
Dipping into the 30% winrate area for marines needed attention, and while people didn't want the Pres changes, it is more rookie friendly for aliens. So something was needed for the mid to late game for marines.
Unfortunately it hurts aliens in the early game as well, where they are already weak and have already required balancing.
Hopefully that can now be done, and hopefully that resolves the issues. (even tho winrates right now look 50/50 as players are learning to play aliens differently)
And you also can't tell me that the latest Pres changes haven't grossly changed the mid to late game where the requirement to kill lifeforms more has greatly increased.
On average, Marines just weren't able to kill aliens in that timeframe.
...
Dipping into the 30% winrate area for marines needed attention, and while people didn't want the Pres changes, it is more rookie friendly for aliens. So something was needed for the mid to late game for marines.
But now you're pushing out updates for the sake of updates, not rookie friendlyness. Pres change was also awful, although not as drastic as the hitboxes. Faster res flow only encourages people to flash their lerks. What the heck, 1.5 min and I can relerk. Thats the exact opposite what the game should convey.
Even if Pres made it better for rookie aliens, the hitbox changes now negated it like 5 times over...
What the heck, 1.5 min and I can relerk. Thats the exact opposite what the game should convey.
So to take it to the extreme for argument sake, you think we should only get 1 lifeform per round and that's it?
That sounds horribly frustrating and demotivating.
We're getting into the subject of "Weight vs Engaging" now, though..
The more weight you give to a mechanic the less engaging the round/game is when it's lost. Think of that single lerk you're able to have.. yes it has GREAT weight to it, when a marine kills one he knows he just had a large impact on the round.. but now the alien is no longer engaged in the round. There's no higher lifeform to look forward to, he's going to be a low level skulk versus Tech 3 Marines soon and it's going to be frustrating and demotivating, why continue to play? This is why players will sometimes vote to concede after losing their lifeform.
In the history of NS2, it has more weight to it than any other FPS I know.. this is good and bad.
Good because it feels like your actions have impact - but bad because you waited 13 minutes for that Onos and now because of a fluke it's gone, and the round is going to be a painful 15 more minutes until it ends.
NS2 could do with a little less weight. It doesn't need to be TF2 or Overwatch where there's essentially ZERO weight (you can pick your class at any time)... but it also doesn't need to be that unforgiving.
I feel like the Pres changes help with that, but they of course came with balance impacts that were expected.
I personally feel like the mid-late game feels better than it ever has before - but with the early game feeling awful for aliens and easy for marines.
*shrug*
What the heck, 1.5 min and I can relerk. Thats the exact opposite what the game should convey.
So to take it to the extreme for argument sake, you think we should only get 1 lifeform per round and that's it?
That sounds horribly frustrating and demotivating.
We're getting into the subject of "Weight vs Engaging" now, though..
The more weight you give to a mechanic the less engaging the round/game is when it's lost. Think of that single lerk you're able to have.. yes it has GREAT weight to it, when a marine kills one he knows he just had a large impact on the round.. but now the alien is no longer engaged in the round. There's no higher lifeform to look forward to, he's going to be a low level skulk versus Tech 3 Marines soon and it's going to be frustrating and demotivating, why continue to play? This is why players will sometimes vote to concede after losing their lifeform.
In the history of NS2, it has more weight to it than any other FPS I know.. this is good and bad.
Good because it feels like your actions have impact - but bad because you waited 13 minutes for that Onos and now because of a fluke it's gone, and the round is going to be a painful 15 more minutes until it ends.
NS2 could do with a little less weight. It doesn't need to be TF2 or Overwatch where there's essentially ZERO weight (you can pick your class at any time)... but it also doesn't need to be that unforgiving.
I feel like the Pres changes help with that, but they of course came with balance impacts that were expected.
I personally feel like the mid-late game feels better than it ever has before - but with the early game feeling awful for aliens and easy for marines.
*shrug*
Both arguments are correct, finding the ideal medium is the challenge IMO.
(even tho winrates right now look 50/50 as players are learning to play aliens differently)
No people are taking advantage of cheesy tactics aliens can use to get a cheap "win"
The vast majority of alien wins these days are super early game rushes, or last ditch base rushes out of desperation... It's extremely rare to get an even halfway balanced game...
It's not like people are simply changing how they play skulk and poof no more problems for aliens early game... (how you make it sound)
50/50 win rates mean absolutely nothing if every game is marines dominating and every alien win is a desperate last ditch base rush.
Comments
What are we crying about then?
I'm just trying to counter your argument about fast paced shooters benefiting from large hitboxes
EDIT:
Also they made the worst possible combo. Mesh geometry detail looks the same, so performance is still the same. Other shooters have dumbed down geometry, so they will probably have better performance. It's just SOOOO illogical what the devs are doing, I feel like bursting into tears
A head (higher damage mechanic) is a much smaller target than a skulk which compensate for the whole body being bigger.
That fade scythe change is huge.
Fade I think is a good point, we'll take a look at that.
My assumption is that it seems to be good practise to use slightly bigger hitboxes in games with high movement speeds to further compensate for fps and latency lags, instead of just relying on interpolation and whatnot. If however, an expert would come around and tell me that Quake-like games soley rely on those cylinder hitboxes for performance and balance (because of differing model sizes) reasons and could do just fine with 1:1 model:hitbox in terms of hitreg, then i would drop that assumption.
That's just it.. it feels better to not have so many of your hits not land, and you are definitely onto something regarding hitbox sizes vs speed of gameplay. Even in Quake 2 when there wasn't really a difference in models (there were only two models) yet the hitbox was large as well. Not so much for performance reasons. When Doom 3 used "pixel perfect" hitboxes, it felt like crap and everyone (including previewing journalists) expressed frustration with it. It was the largest complaint of Doom 3 multiplayer besides the darkness, that it just didn't feel good.
What most here dont realize (and you can verify for yourself in the viewer) is that the old hitboxes didn't cover certain portions of the model sometimes.. that's how tiny they there.
Bottom line is that they were insufficient even if the game wasn't incredibly fast.
To those saying it was done for hitreg purposes : No.. not really AFAIK.. It was a hopeful thought that it might help some of the edge case scenarios (where you're hitting the model but not the box) but really it was done because it just doesn't feel good to not hit what you're aiming at because your bullet is going through multiple legs 1mm next to the hitbox.
Faster games use larger hitboxes for a reason - and consider that said games even have FAR better server rates /interp than what ns2 uses - and if the game requires some fundamental balance changes to accompany it, I feel like it's worth it, both for less frustration /feeling better and lowering the skill floor.
Which brings me to this part: The reverse could be also said; it doesn't feel right landing a hit when there's nothing there... But again, if this shift actually helps growing the playerbase, I'm all for it.
Btw, wouldn't making the hitbox geometry less complex have performance benefits? Or would that be negligible?
Meanwhile on alien side ghost swipes/bites that should reg but don't still happen occasionally.
(sarcasm) PS: I see plenty of graphs about general or specific data on NS2. @Nordic should make one about the crowd's reactions/fuss for each update. I see a trend. (/sarcasm)
Did you just set a world record for contradicting yourself?
Not sure what you're getting at. Could you elaborate?
Yeah, there's a complete science behind PR. It's a two-way relationship, so the crowd is not solely to blame.
I saw a few comments on the NSL page and I did not believe it.
Truly did not believe that the devs would be that disconnected with anyone above 1200 elo.
Sadly I was wrong.
The old hitboxes were fine, just fine. If you missed, you missed. It was that simple. I would even argue it was easier to see hitreg issue in frame per frame footage because it matched the model.
I would argue NS2 was way ahead of the competition in regards to hitboxes.
Then I read this.
Now I accept, even agree that testing without telling us may prevent us from poluting the results.. But damn, has not a single person been paying attention?
Most skulks in pubs can not dodge a bullet if their live depended on it, and it does. Sadly this has even become worse in the last few months. Just recently I was talking with other servers ops on steam that its not balance but players playing so utter poor, that their skulk is just so bad, that you can not balance for that.
I got the question 'why are aliens losing even more then, nothing changed?'.
I could not give a answer, I did not know. While skulk skill had been insane abhorrently bad for a good while, it wasn't 'just now'.
And now I do know.. and I am utter amazed.
You have a pub scene where most experienced players left.
You have a pub scene which attracted many many rookies who haven't a inkling how to play skulk, and most have not any willingness to learn any time soon.
And your solution is to increase the hitbox and make this situation WORSE? REALLY?
In the past when you had a team filled with rookies vs rookies at least it sort of worked.
Carry a bit and you could, perhaps, manage to get a reasonable round out of it.. not good, reasonable.
Ive not had a reasonable round in weeks. Pubs been a complete wreck.
For the first time ever, I am really really trying to make a calm post in responds to a uwe patch notes release.. and im not even sure I am pulling it off.
I shall ask now the question, what are we doing this for?
Sure player retention is great and all but that surely includes the mid and top tier of players, not just the bottom rookies?
This change is just.. no... just no.
I hope the devs really have a long term plan and are not just hacking around to see what-would-happen-if...
Could you point me to real shiet-posting? I honestly don't see any flaming, only sarcasm. And that is to be expected, not because they kept quiet about the update, but because it's utter insanity without serious counter-balance. Which is not implemented atm
I don't understand how better performance could solve the problem with the new hitboxes. regardless of performance the hitboxes are just shi.t
They were already inside the model in multiple places??..
Or does that option just mean smaller skulk models, but keeping the old boxes? ... that option makes no sense to me.
And it DOES NOT make it easire for rookies. They have always had problems with the alien side, not the ranged marines. If anything, your retention of new players will be far worse now.
EDIT:
It means exactly whats written. Smaller skulk models AND hitboxes. The fact that it makes no sense to you guys just proves that you're not capable at the game. Decisions coming from pple like that is incompetent at best... Sorry if your fairy land gets crushed by player feedback, but reality can be tough.
And I dont want to paint the devil on the wall, but it's capitalism. You want to make money, and we want to have a playable game, but you keep this up for even a bit longer, you'll loose the rest of the 300 avg players you had before 305...
And you also can't tell me that the latest Pres changes haven't grossly changed the mid to late game where the requirement to kill lifeforms more has greatly increased.
On average, Marines just weren't able to kill aliens in that timeframe.
Aliens already had the upper hand since the beginning of June, as the graphs showed..
Dipping into the 30% winrate area for marines needed attention, and while people didn't want the Pres changes, it is more rookie friendly for aliens. So something was needed for the mid to late game for marines.
Unfortunately it hurts aliens in the early game as well, where they are already weak and have already required balancing.
Hopefully that can now be done, and hopefully that resolves the issues. (even tho winrates right now look 50/50 as players are learning to play aliens differently)
But now you're pushing out updates for the sake of updates, not rookie friendlyness. Pres change was also awful, although not as drastic as the hitboxes. Faster res flow only encourages people to flash their lerks. What the heck, 1.5 min and I can relerk. Thats the exact opposite what the game should convey.
Even if Pres made it better for rookie aliens, the hitbox changes now negated it like 5 times over...
That sounds horribly frustrating and demotivating.
We're getting into the subject of "Weight vs Engaging" now, though..
The more weight you give to a mechanic the less engaging the round/game is when it's lost. Think of that single lerk you're able to have.. yes it has GREAT weight to it, when a marine kills one he knows he just had a large impact on the round.. but now the alien is no longer engaged in the round. There's no higher lifeform to look forward to, he's going to be a low level skulk versus Tech 3 Marines soon and it's going to be frustrating and demotivating, why continue to play? This is why players will sometimes vote to concede after losing their lifeform.
In the history of NS2, it has more weight to it than any other FPS I know.. this is good and bad.
Good because it feels like your actions have impact - but bad because you waited 13 minutes for that Onos and now because of a fluke it's gone, and the round is going to be a painful 15 more minutes until it ends.
NS2 could do with a little less weight. It doesn't need to be TF2 or Overwatch where there's essentially ZERO weight (you can pick your class at any time)... but it also doesn't need to be that unforgiving.
I feel like the Pres changes help with that, but they of course came with balance impacts that were expected.
I personally feel like the mid-late game feels better than it ever has before - but with the early game feeling awful for aliens and easy for marines.
*shrug*
Both arguments are correct, finding the ideal medium is the challenge IMO.
No people are taking advantage of cheesy tactics aliens can use to get a cheap "win"
The vast majority of alien wins these days are super early game rushes, or last ditch base rushes out of desperation... It's extremely rare to get an even halfway balanced game...
It's not like people are simply changing how they play skulk and poof no more problems for aliens early game... (how you make it sound)
50/50 win rates mean absolutely nothing if every game is marines dominating and every alien win is a desperate last ditch base rush.