We have this slotted for next week If you guys have more ideas I'd love to hear them! Some of the things we discussed:
Redemption- I don't think it would be a bad upgrade to add for crag hive... however we'd change it a little from it's NS1 incarnation- instead of a % chance to activate, it would be a guaranteed chance (with a cooldown). But it would also make a sound when it "activates" and then have a couple of seconds of wind-up time before it actually teleports you, allowing marines to realize this and give them a chance to try and burst you down before you get away. It would also teleport you to the farthest available hive so you cannot re-engage immediately. (was my thoughts on it anyway)
Focus- maybe not quite focus, but some kind of Vampirism upgrade. Maybe a weak version of focus but it also has this life-steal capability as well- we're still discussing ideas.
This proposed version of Redemption sounds a lot better, if still somewhat questionable. Either way, I think a redempted alien should count as kill for marines. Also, I'd keep vampirism and focus separate. For one, I think splitting one hybrid upgrade (phantom) only to introduce a new one is inconsisten. Furthermore, they'd greatly fit to crag/shift hive individually.
I'd do the following:
- Add vampirism to crag
- Add focus to shift
- Split phantom; remove cloak altogether; add redemption for shade
This would make shift>shade a lot more viable, and shade>anything a little.
About why shade hive is not so good early on,
Everyone is skulk, nobody needs aura.
The shade cloaking effect on aliens is nulified by the cloaking upgrade (unlike crags and shifts with regen/adre),
Ink has for only purpose to counter something that doesnt happen early game.
My suggestions:
- Shade give both cloaking and silence but in a slightly smaller radius. So that it becomes basically a perfect ambush tool, and useful regardless of your upgrade since silence and cloak are split.
- Modify Ink so that it's less situational for example it spawns a swarm of halucination babblers
Something to make it more useful early game overall.
This proposed version of Redemption sounds a lot better, if still somewhat questionable. Either way, I think a redempted alien should count as kill for marines. Also, I'd keep vampirism and focus separate. For one, I think splitting one hybrid upgrade (phantom) only to introduce a new one is inconsisten. Furthermore, they'd greatly fit to crag/shift hive individually.
I'd do the following:
- Add vampirism to crag
- Add focus to shift
- Split phantom; remove cloak altogether; add redemption for shade
This would make shift>shade a lot more viable, and shade>anything a little.
There are a lot of balance issues which would come up due to doing it that way. Also Shift + Shade is already too viable. It's incredibly powerful, probably the best in the game.
The concept of Vampirism is meh. It's essentially bad regen, which requires to you actually hit your target. Again, hybrid abilities are weird, and especially with two things which are so dissimilar. It also makes going armor against Shade non-effective, making early engagements even more miserable for unprepared or less skilled marines, as in addition to invisible-silent skulks, you'll have to use more bullets for the ones that aren't. Why give a Hive with nothing to do with vitality a health stealing ability that's just objectively worse than a constant health regeneration ability?
Focus alone is a powerful enough ability, and one that is nerfed by being on the Shade Hive in the way that you cannot have it with Aura. In addition, it promotes true skill in the game, as you must time your attacks accordingly. Also, it doesn't effect spikes or anything, just the left-mouse-button attack.
By moving Silence to the Shift Hive, you're removing Celerity + Silence skulk, which is absolutely the most powerful combination in the game. While Shift is considered the best Hive in the game currently, you're actually nerfing it to a degree, because you're giving it an ability (Silence) that used to work so well with it prior, meaning that lightning fast silent skulks can't completely dominate small engagements in tight places.
You still enable players to play Silence + Cloaking, because the abilities are split. This might mean that cloaking might need a slight buff, but overall it's very fair in the way that it's an extremely powerful combination.
Importantly, this also manages to keep each Hive type and its upgrades flavorful and suited for one another, which many of the other ideas do not. The Spur grants abilities pertaining to movement, the Shell for vitality, and the Veil for awareness.
Nahhh.. not really.
It's pretty much always frustrating to have your hard earned (possibly coordinated) kill be ripped away from you by a cheesy mechanic like that.
As fun as it may be for the alien, it's never ever fun for the marine(s).
@Zavaro Best proposal so far. The only problem I see with it is the problem of Silence + Focus - Hang around behind a corner, leap silently and chew/cheese away. Also, no one will ever pick cloaking unless you make it harder to spot. (E.g. in dark rooms.) Unless... so few people use it that using it becomes a surprise tactic.
Nahhh.. not really.
It's pretty much always frustrating to have your hard earned (possibly coordinated) kill be ripped away from you by a cheesy mechanic like that.
As fun as it may be for the alien, it's never ever fun for the marine(s).
I said nothing about it being fun for marines... I simply stated that it won't be OP if properly implemented.
Choosing this upgrade for alien means that you basically have no upgrade... which in combat is important. You trade the ability to have aura or cloaking for an oh-sh!t button upgrade that saves you from dying (once ever few minutes).
Good players will always choose aura over it granted that its cooldown or activation time are not retarded.
tl;dr it all comes down to how it works... just like I stated before.
@Frozen Valid argument. I guess there still would be ways to exploit it.
Not sure if there would be a way to prevent this... Increasing the p-res cost of the upgrade could work but throwing in that variation to the game would just become more confusing for new players. Maybe have a cooldown period from the time you actually purchase the upgrade?... ie the recall will not actually happen unless its been >1min from the time of upgrade. Again, it would just complicate the mechanic.
Redemption, even with countdown and cue, is still ALWAYS unfun:
for marine: alien disappears
for alien: no luck, you die
Fun: Redeem.
You die, go 'ghost' mode (cant bite etc, just walk), get XX seconds (marines can still finish the 'ghost'), then Xeno effect (damage based on lifeform HP + light bile effect) + big BOOOM
BOOOOM BOOOOOM
This game been begging for giant HookerOnos explosions for so long...
Ok here's a funny twist idea to limit abuse of redeption. After being brought back to your hive by redemption a timer starts, a few minutes later when it hit 0 you automatically die.
I remember back to the ns2 beta where every hive had 3 ability:
Crag hive had Feint Death (maybe it was Shade hive)
(where you lay dead on the ground for 3 seconds and then stand up with idk 10% health only to get shot down 3 Seconds later.)
At an other Hive it was but there was also a thing where you can evolve to the next Lifeform without the full res cost.
(example: As Fade you gain 20 res more then go to back to base and evolve into an onos)
(and a 3rd one i cant remember)
ANYWAY Redemption is a frustrating mechanic because a For sure Trapped Lifeform now will escape with pure luck instead of a Team effort to Rescue him.
The easiest Solution is to stick to 2 Upgrades per Hive because:
If you just make it Aura and Silence on Shade hive then most problems are Solved.
I've always though the upgrades should be something along the lines of this:
Shells have Carapace, Regen, and Adrenaline(buffed/altered to be a viable choice against cara/regen).
Spurs have Celerity, and Silence, and Focus.
Veils have Scent of Fear, Feign Death, and Cloaking (Change to be more transparent while on infestation and make it so you don't alert the enemy commander when attacking their structures.)
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited May 2016
BRAINSTORM ; WHAT IF REDEMPTION DID THIS:
Give a passive shield of higher effective value than carapace every Z minutes at x% hp
edit: This would add skilled push timing scenario. You would have to be passive enough to not lose the shield cooldown while waiting for a specific fight you want to use it during. This would require a visual cue to marines.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
BRAINSTORM #2 ; WHAT IF REDEMPTION DID THIS:
Drop to certain HP gives invulnerability and INABILITY TO USE NON-MOVEMENT ATTACKS (is charge still ok) for x seconds. This would happen every y seconds at z %hp
Ok maybe adrenaline needs to be buffed but that's another problem, won't be fixed by moving the wrong thing in the wrong category.
The Shade Hive is not just a "deception" hive. It's much more than that. It's a perception and awareness Hive. It's always been that way, with Hallucinations and Feign Death and stupid things like that. In terms of game flavor, Aura wouldn't fit on a Crag Hive because a Crag Hive is about preservation. Plus, by moving Aura to Crag, you buff Crag even more and nerf current Shade into oblivion. @Nordic, @joshhh and I have outlined in our posts why those things would be beneficial for both game balance and flavor for moving Silence to Shift.
This is the same method which was experimented on over a period of ten years in Natural Selection 1, and I think they really struck gold with the balancing of each of the abilities. There were tons of shifts during the development, where things moved around, terrible abilities were experimented with (like Pheremones), but this is what really stuck. I think it's obvious as upgrades go.
Most importantly, it tackles current issues such a Silence + Celerity, Phantom being too overpowered on a single ability, and a lack of pubs willing to go Shade. Players will be much more keen on picking a Shade Hive with something like Focus if it is available. It also introduces new metagame changes and gives players more customization for their specific lifeform builds. Some Fades may more commonly choose Aura over Focus. Some skulks may have a hard choice between Celerity or Silence. Gone would be the days of the Aura + Celerity Fade, you'd see new stuff.
You're increasing viability for users, you're introducing new meta, and you're fixing inherent gameplay issues. There's tons of dead birds for this big stone.
Ok maybe adrenaline needs to be buffed but that's another problem, won't be fixed by moving the wrong thing in the wrong category.
The Shade Hive is not just a "deception" hive. It's much more than that. It's a perception and awareness Hive. It's always been that way, with Hallucinations and Feign Death and stupid things like that. In terms of game flavor, Aura wouldn't fit on a Crag Hive because a Crag Hive is about preservation. Plus, by moving Aura to Crag, you buff Crag even more and nerf current Shade into oblivion. @Nordic, @joshhh and I have outlined in our posts why those things would be beneficial for both game balance and flavor for moving Silence to Shift.
This is the same method which was experimented on over a period of ten years in Natural Selection 1, and I think they really struck gold with the balancing of each of the abilities. There were tons of shifts during the development, where things moved around, terrible abilities were experimented with (like Pheremones), but this is what really stuck. I think it's obvious as upgrades go.
Most importantly, it tackles current issues such a Silence + Celerity, Phantom being too overpowered on a single ability, and a lack of pubs willing to go Shade. Players will be much more keen on picking a Shade Hive with something like Focus if it is available. It also introduces new metagame changes and gives players more customization for their specific lifeform builds. Some Fades may more commonly choose Aura over Focus. Some skulks may have a hard choice between Celerity or Silence. Gone would be the days of the Aura + Celerity Fade, you'd see new stuff.
You're increasing viability for users, you're introducing new meta, and you're fixing inherent gameplay issues. There's tons of dead birds for this big stone.
I think it boils down to: The new upgrades should offer you a real choice. Currently, the only choice is phantom or aura, and it usually comes so late it doesnt matter. Carapace is almost universally better than regen. No one picks adrenaline over celerity.
Silence vs celerity would be a real choice. Focus vs aura, too. As would be redemption vs carapace - assuming you put those abilities on those hives.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Well, yeah. The first upgrade would not do twice the damage. Three levels. 33% extra damage is a lot on the first level, but it still requires two bites and a parasite, and the chamber wouldn't be done until after the first engagement. Still, after that, things get out of hand. I think maybe balancing it around Armor 1 or Armor 2 would be best. Three bites instead of four on second chamber versus Armor 2. Things like that. Where early on the impact is rather minimal, but later on things get better. It could also serve as the function replacement for the tentative ability of giving Fades stab as a replacement effect for swipe, which is currently a planned thing.
Ok maybe adrenaline needs to be buffed but that's another problem, won't be fixed by moving the wrong thing in the wrong category.
The Shade Hive is not just a "deception" hive. It's much more than that. It's a perception and awareness Hive. It's always been that way, with Hallucinations and Feign Death and stupid things like that. In terms of game flavor, Aura wouldn't fit on a Crag Hive because a Crag Hive is about preservation. Plus, by moving Aura to Crag, you buff Crag even more and nerf current Shade into oblivion. @Nordic, @joshhh and I have outlined in our posts why those things would be beneficial for both game balance and flavor for moving Silence to Shift.
This is the same method which was experimented on over a period of ten years in Natural Selection 1, and I think they really struck gold with the balancing of each of the abilities. There were tons of shifts during the development, where things moved around, terrible abilities were experimented with (like Pheremones), but this is what really stuck. I think it's obvious as upgrades go.
Most importantly, it tackles current issues such a Silence + Celerity, Phantom being too overpowered on a single ability, and a lack of pubs willing to go Shade. Players will be much more keen on picking a Shade Hive with something like Focus if it is available. It also introduces new metagame changes and gives players more customization for their specific lifeform builds. Some Fades may more commonly choose Aura over Focus. Some skulks may have a hard choice between Celerity or Silence. Gone would be the days of the Aura + Celerity Fade, you'd see new stuff.
You're increasing viability for users, you're introducing new meta, and you're fixing inherent gameplay issues. There's tons of dead birds for this big stone.
I think it boils down to: The new upgrades should offer you a real choice. Currently, the only choice is phantom or aura, and it usually comes so late it doesnt matter. Carapace is almost universally better than regen. No one picks adrenaline over celerity.
Silence vs celerity would be a real choice. Focus vs aura, too. As would be redemption vs carapace - assuming you put those abilities on those hives.
I only use carapace on skulks and in special cases for lerks and onos. Almost categorically never on fades.
I prefer regen on skulks, but will go carapace if can't get any kills.
I prefer carapace on gorge, because I can just heal myself.
I prefer regen on lerk, but will go carapace if I keep getting dangerously low with little reward.
I don't fade often, but carapace because I am a bad fade.
I nearly always go regen on onos. If I have a dedicated gorge I will go carapace, but even then I still prefer regen.
In my opinion, regeneration is always better than carapace because it is a more active upgrade than carapace. With regen, if I take a little chip damage, I go hide for a moment. As a regen lerk, I will dive in and out of cover denying marines any and all chip damage as I kill them. As an onos, I heal like 80 health a second which is incredible. Basically every half shotgun shot is meaningless with regen.
If I am in a situation where I need carapace, then it is probably a situation I shouldn't be in to begin with.
I think the concept of Shade being solely the "deception" hive is the reason why it's been underutilized since day one of NS2's release. You can't prioritize theme over function - deception abilities alone simply aren't enough to win a game, at least not without those upgrades being horribly frustrating to marines. Focus was a good example of an upgrade with a very tenuous connection to the theme of the sensory chamber, but it was effective because it rounded out the offering of the hive by adding something with direct combat applications.
Comments
This proposed version of Redemption sounds a lot better, if still somewhat questionable. Either way, I think a redempted alien should count as kill for marines. Also, I'd keep vampirism and focus separate. For one, I think splitting one hybrid upgrade (phantom) only to introduce a new one is inconsisten. Furthermore, they'd greatly fit to crag/shift hive individually.
I'd do the following:
- Add vampirism to crag
- Add focus to shift
- Split phantom; remove cloak altogether; add redemption for shade
This would make shift>shade a lot more viable, and shade>anything a little.
Everyone is skulk, nobody needs aura.
The shade cloaking effect on aliens is nulified by the cloaking upgrade (unlike crags and shifts with regen/adre),
Ink has for only purpose to counter something that doesnt happen early game.
My suggestions:
- Shade give both cloaking and silence but in a slightly smaller radius. So that it becomes basically a perfect ambush tool, and useful regardless of your upgrade since silence and cloak are split.
- Modify Ink so that it's less situational for example it spawns a swarm of halucination babblers
Something to make it more useful early game overall.
There are a lot of balance issues which would come up due to doing it that way. Also Shift + Shade is already too viable. It's incredibly powerful, probably the best in the game.
Here is what @Golden is talking about:
Shift
Crag
Shade
The concept of Vampirism is meh. It's essentially bad regen, which requires to you actually hit your target. Again, hybrid abilities are weird, and especially with two things which are so dissimilar. It also makes going armor against Shade non-effective, making early engagements even more miserable for unprepared or less skilled marines, as in addition to invisible-silent skulks, you'll have to use more bullets for the ones that aren't. Why give a Hive with nothing to do with vitality a health stealing ability that's just objectively worse than a constant health regeneration ability?
Focus alone is a powerful enough ability, and one that is nerfed by being on the Shade Hive in the way that you cannot have it with Aura. In addition, it promotes true skill in the game, as you must time your attacks accordingly. Also, it doesn't effect spikes or anything, just the left-mouse-button attack.
By moving Silence to the Shift Hive, you're removing Celerity + Silence skulk, which is absolutely the most powerful combination in the game. While Shift is considered the best Hive in the game currently, you're actually nerfing it to a degree, because you're giving it an ability (Silence) that used to work so well with it prior, meaning that lightning fast silent skulks can't completely dominate small engagements in tight places.
You still enable players to play Silence + Cloaking, because the abilities are split. This might mean that cloaking might need a slight buff, but overall it's very fair in the way that it's an extremely powerful combination.
Importantly, this also manages to keep each Hive type and its upgrades flavorful and suited for one another, which many of the other ideas do not. The Spur grants abilities pertaining to movement, the Shell for vitality, and the Veil for awareness.
It's pretty much always frustrating to have your hard earned (possibly coordinated) kill be ripped away from you by a cheesy mechanic like that.
As fun as it may be for the alien, it's never ever fun for the marine(s).
I said nothing about it being fun for marines... I simply stated that it won't be OP if properly implemented.
Choosing this upgrade for alien means that you basically have no upgrade... which in combat is important. You trade the ability to have aura or cloaking for an oh-sh!t button upgrade that saves you from dying (once ever few minutes).
Good players will always choose aura over it granted that its cooldown or activation time are not retarded.
tl;dr it all comes down to how it works... just like I stated before.
The main way I'd be using it is switching to it for all-in pushes at the cost of my pres, if I have the pres luxury, of course.
*to fellow onoses* "Let's all switch to redemption and rush their powernode"
No way that's going to be a problem.
Not sure if there would be a way to prevent this... Increasing the p-res cost of the upgrade could work but throwing in that variation to the game would just become more confusing for new players. Maybe have a cooldown period from the time you actually purchase the upgrade?... ie the recall will not actually happen unless its been >1min from the time of upgrade. Again, it would just complicate the mechanic.
for marine: alien disappears
for alien: no luck, you die
Fun: Redeem.
You die, go 'ghost' mode (cant bite etc, just walk), get XX seconds (marines can still finish the 'ghost'), then Xeno effect (damage based on lifeform HP + light bile effect) + big BOOOM
BOOOOM BOOOOOM
This game been begging for giant HookerOnos explosions for so long...
EXPLODE !
Crag hive had Feint Death (maybe it was Shade hive)
(where you lay dead on the ground for 3 seconds and then stand up with idk 10% health only to get shot down 3 Seconds later.)
At an other Hive it was but there was also a thing where you can evolve to the next Lifeform without the full res cost.
(example: As Fade you gain 20 res more then go to back to base and evolve into an onos)
(and a 3rd one i cant remember)
ANYWAY Redemption is a frustrating mechanic because a For sure Trapped Lifeform now will escape with pure luck instead of a Team effort to Rescue him.
The easiest Solution is to stick to 2 Upgrades per Hive because:
If you just make it Aura and Silence on Shade hive then most problems are Solved.
But if we fix it anyway (for fun): add explosions.
Give a passive shield of higher effective value than carapace every Z minutes at x% hp
edit: This would add skilled push timing scenario. You would have to be passive enough to not lose the shield cooldown while waiting for a specific fight you want to use it during. This would require a visual cue to marines.
Drop to certain HP gives invulnerability and INABILITY TO USE NON-MOVEMENT ATTACKS (is charge still ok) for x seconds. This would happen every y seconds at z %hp
The Shade Hive is not just a "deception" hive. It's much more than that. It's a perception and awareness Hive. It's always been that way, with Hallucinations and Feign Death and stupid things like that. In terms of game flavor, Aura wouldn't fit on a Crag Hive because a Crag Hive is about preservation. Plus, by moving Aura to Crag, you buff Crag even more and nerf current Shade into oblivion. @Nordic, @joshhh and I have outlined in our posts why those things would be beneficial for both game balance and flavor for moving Silence to Shift.
This is the same method which was experimented on over a period of ten years in Natural Selection 1, and I think they really struck gold with the balancing of each of the abilities. There were tons of shifts during the development, where things moved around, terrible abilities were experimented with (like Pheremones), but this is what really stuck. I think it's obvious as upgrades go.
Most importantly, it tackles current issues such a Silence + Celerity, Phantom being too overpowered on a single ability, and a lack of pubs willing to go Shade. Players will be much more keen on picking a Shade Hive with something like Focus if it is available. It also introduces new metagame changes and gives players more customization for their specific lifeform builds. Some Fades may more commonly choose Aura over Focus. Some skulks may have a hard choice between Celerity or Silence. Gone would be the days of the Aura + Celerity Fade, you'd see new stuff.
You're increasing viability for users, you're introducing new meta, and you're fixing inherent gameplay issues. There's tons of dead birds for this big stone.
It will require CONSIDERABLE MARINE BUFFS.
It's identically what made weapons as powerful as the ns1 HMG balance-able in any way.
edit: I'm overstating that ns1 statement a bunch, but still
That really depends on how strong you make focus.
I think it boils down to: The new upgrades should offer you a real choice. Currently, the only choice is phantom or aura, and it usually comes so late it doesnt matter. Carapace is almost universally better than regen. No one picks adrenaline over celerity.
Silence vs celerity would be a real choice. Focus vs aura, too. As would be redemption vs carapace - assuming you put those abilities on those hives.
I only use carapace on skulks and in special cases for lerks and onos. Almost categorically never on fades.
I prefer carapace on gorge, because I can just heal myself.
I prefer regen on lerk, but will go carapace if I keep getting dangerously low with little reward.
I don't fade often, but carapace because I am a bad fade.
I nearly always go regen on onos. If I have a dedicated gorge I will go carapace, but even then I still prefer regen.
In my opinion, regeneration is always better than carapace because it is a more active upgrade than carapace. With regen, if I take a little chip damage, I go hide for a moment. As a regen lerk, I will dive in and out of cover denying marines any and all chip damage as I kill them. As an onos, I heal like 80 health a second which is incredible. Basically every half shotgun shot is meaningless with regen.
If I am in a situation where I need carapace, then it is probably a situation I shouldn't be in to begin with.