Why does the wielder cost 3 res?
Rammler
Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Hello,
i am still wondering why the wielder costs 3 res. In my opinion this is too much for an item you should always buy when you respawn. The problem is it hurts most when you are already losing and are far behind with your resmanagement. for example: the aliens are a lot better than marines and marine are only holding 3 rts. marines keep dying and dying. So a rookie can die 10 times for example. that are 30 res in total for wielders. and it hurts double when your economy is far behind and you are only holding 3 rts.
I would really enjoy to hear why the wielder costs 3 res. for now in most servers i see a lot of people dont carry wielders anymore because they dont want to spend 3 res over and over again.
i am still wondering why the wielder costs 3 res. In my opinion this is too much for an item you should always buy when you respawn. The problem is it hurts most when you are already losing and are far behind with your resmanagement. for example: the aliens are a lot better than marines and marine are only holding 3 rts. marines keep dying and dying. So a rookie can die 10 times for example. that are 30 res in total for wielders. and it hurts double when your economy is far behind and you are only holding 3 rts.
I would really enjoy to hear why the wielder costs 3 res. for now in most servers i see a lot of people dont carry wielders anymore because they dont want to spend 3 res over and over again.
Comments
So the reason you can't just make them free is mainly that the sink will be gone and marines will have a lot more pres.
That's beyond all of the theorycrafting about axing down structures and the welder's op-combat status vs the axe.
the wielder is a very important tool and has the function to repair marines armor because the armory did not wield the armor anymore since 250. but if no one is buying it because of the high costs the whole balance is out of line. i see to often people pushing hives with me and no one carrys a wielder..... like ChrisStark says: if you die a lot it is just to expensive and people refuse to buy it. that leads to the problem that no one is able to wield and this f*cks the whole balance up. If enough people see a point in my suggestion it could be tested.
I think the wielder should get the attention it shoould have since the balance update 250: A armor wielding tool that EVERYONE should carry with him if he wants to. The current situation with 2 people carrying a wielder in a 10 man-team is not the correct state imo.
1. It makes me want to die less - so I play better, I group up and position better, I take my time to analyse the map, etc.
2. It makes me pay attention to picking up and/or recycling Welders that are dropped by fallen Marines until they can get back to them, saving their pres.
I can see the inherent benefits to having Welders cost money, and wouldn't want them cheaper/free. It makes me a better player.
Hmm i think this is far-fetched. You should always group up and play the best you can no matter if you have a welder or not. The biggest problem ocurrs in unbalanced games where marines are dying over and over again. when you die 10 times you have to spend 30 res for welders. when you hold less rts 30 res is very expensive.
in the last days in a lot of games i got a better picture of this problem. When you are winning in a marine team a lot of people are carrying welders. Its because 3 pres is not a big deal when you hold at least 4 rts. So there is not the problem. But when the game is turning over and you are only holding 2 rts and the aliens are on their road to glory no one carries a welder anymore. In my opinion that should be changed.
the high costs of the welder punishes you when you are already losing. And when no one is able to buy a welder you are losing way faster than before.
Bad and unbalanced design decisions should not be the motivation to play the game properly.
And pres cost making you a better player is no valid argument. I am sure there are many things that would make you a better player, but do you want aimbots implemented?
Things costing res should be bonuses so they are worth it. This is the case with all upgrades and gear in the game iirc except welders because they are mandatory. So marines should start with them for free.
It is like the skulk would have to pay 3 res after every death to get the parasite ability.
It is not mandatory for every marine to have a welder, just a good chunk of them need them. In addition to this, you should not be going alone so if you die your teammates can pick up the welder.
the welder is no upgrade. it has no function except repairing armor and structures. alien upgrades are much stronger.
And i have to disagree with your second point. Imo every marine should carry a welder. Or at least he should be able to decide if he wants a welder or an axe for the same price.
the most important thing about the welder is the repair function of the armor. and if i would get 1 Dollar for every moment i die because i have 0 armor and my teammate has not a welder i think i could buy UWE. And that is the mainproblem. The welder does not show his full potential when nobody is carrying it. And i dont think that this was the plan of the developers back in update 250.....
And there in lies the answer to your own question.
You see, once upon a time, the little skulky wulky was a poorly treated chap. The most basic lifeform, frequently killed off far too easily, and trying to defend itself was a major problem. You see, the skulk had to pay for it's upgrades, in fact all the aliens paid the same price for their upgrades. This lead to a situation where skulks became useless the moment their economy was tightened, as even if they had the hives for the upgrades, they couldn't afford them.
This was resolved by making upgrades for skulks free, so the additional punishment of being unable to afford your basic tools when you were losing was taken away.
Do you see the similarities now? When marine economy gets hurt, immediately they are double punished by losing the ability to repair. While I do agree going free would be too much, a welder should never cost more than 1 pres.
--EDIT--
Actually, thinking about it, it is much worse, taking away the ability to weld also takes away the chances to save structures, as well as lives, so arguably, they could be important enough to make free, else it would be almost like making gorge healspray cost res..
what?
The gorge costs 8 pres but I wouldn't say that healspray costs anything.
Yes, I should have been clearer. That 8 pres isn't nothing, it is 8pres off your future lerk/fade/onos/regorge. Alternatively, it costs a much cheaper 10* tres with a slight research time on vanilla.
*egg costs are 10, 30, 70, 100 for the respective lifeforms if I recall correctly. Not absolutely sure though.
My suggestions is to decrease to 1Pres and put it in the armory tech tree for 10Tres and 1:30minute.
Then enlighten us about those tactical reasons please.
Wow, very good post. Full of arguments. And i like your offensive style.....
Back to topic: I rarely see marines recycle welders. And of course marines can recycle weapons and aliens not. That is one basic game mechanic. But that does not mean we should never ever change anything in other mechanics.
I think testing the welder at 1 pres could be interesting and push the welders effectiveness. and if people will play less carefully and shitty when the welder costs 1 pres has to be proven. i dont think that this will be happen.
- You're not winning engagements
- You're being outplayed (and as a typical consequence, outscaled)
If you are not winning engagements, why are you trying to blame it on welders? They has no influence of engagements as they happen? Or maybe thats the problem - that they have no effect on engagements and you feel like you are wasting pres. Thing brings forth two points where you can change - win engagements, or stop buying welders. What will happen if you start winning engagements? The problem is solved. What will happen if you stop buying welders? You wont be able to repair structures, and only slowly be able to repair powernodes. But all this ignores one simple point - you need to win engagements to do anything in this first person shooter.
If you are being outplayed, you are in tought luck. The opponent used "Brain", and its super effective. The only counter is using the move "Brain".
In short - welders wont win you games, and they wont lose you games. YOU win games and YOU lose games. Are you going agressive to kill an RT by yourself, maybe dont buy a welder. Are you joining an assault with ARCs, then maybe you should have a welder. Are you attacking a hive in a group, buy a welder. Are you defending RTs, then buy a welder. Do you know you are going to die and possibly trade, and not reach the dropped item in time? Maybe dont do it. Dont go alone with a SG and JP to their natural. Thats called suiside and costs you 35 res. *But thats alot, so maybe it should be less, otherwise we will lose our advantage, because the game doesnt play as I want it to* /sarcasm
Maybe a alien perspective is needed for those who fail to understand at this point. Gorges are not resbiters, and they will never be exellent at this job. Likewise, LMGs have a very hard time to kill fades. So you kinda want SGs to kill fades. Marines with welders are great as sustained combat, holding resbiting skulks at bay. If you dont have a welder in this position, youre not going to be exellent at it, but you can still do it - just like the resbiting gorge.
This is because:
1. Unlike the gorge, the welder is a necessary tool.
2. The welder should replace the axe and build tool by default. The axe and build tool's functions are already done by the welder, or could be done. Why have three tools with overlapping functions, when you can just go to one tool that does it all?
Why fix something which works fine?
Unfortunately, the game doesn't encourage to buy it when it makes sense (i.e. when you go rifle-only).
No, i think the welder has big influence on engagements. Like Resistor says:
Play a round as marine with 0 Armor and play a round as marine with always full armor. And than think again about welders and if they have really no influence on engagements.
Welders don't only weld structures, they weld marines too. And like Nordic says:
That is the simple point. A welder is a necessary tool. Can you play an alien round without gorge? Sure. Can you really play this game without a welder?
And another big problem about the welder is that you are not able to weld yourself with it. Your armor always relies on your teammates:
And are you now complaining about NS2 being a game that requires teamwork and cooporation?
No i am not complaining about teamwork. But i am complaining about the current situation of the welder. I don't want to weld myself, i want others to carry welders to weld me like it should be. But at the current state near 2 of 10 marines are carrying welders. And that is not how it should be imo.
Sure, comp play is an other topic but i am talking about public play and vanilla here. And i think most people have a wrong thinking about the welder. Like devel for example. He only carries a welder when he buys a shotgun. Not thinking about the fact that maybe other people are carrying a shotgun and he could weld them even if he hasn't one shotgun on his own.
Your are too much focusing on the battleside of the game. I agree with you that free welders will not make you win when the enemy is just better than you. But that is not the point. The welder itself gets the wrong attention imo. It is a necessary tool that every marine should be able to buy without higher pres costs.
Even if the enemy is better than you and your a hanging on just 2 or 3 rts, you should always be able to get your welder without higher pres costs.
2. a welded armor needs more attacks from enemy´s, so your commander has more time to switch to the engagement.
3. a welded armor needs more attacks from enemy´s, so you can easier safe rt´s what comes back to pres.
4. you can repair structures.
5. you can faster rebuild powernodes.
6. you and your friend can always be like a new marine thanks to welding and medding, what gives a huge advantage.
a welder is worth its price. what makes them not worth are players not using them when needed.
PS: when low on pres dont buy and switch with one who got a welder..
If you die and lose your welder, you don't lose 3 pres for the welder, but 3 pres for your next shotgun / hmg / jp.
If you don't buy welders, you are unnecessarily nerfing yourself and your team.
if you share a welder (1 welder for 2 marines) then you are having team play and you're using your resources more effectively.