Fixed Spawns and Map Variety
Frozen
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I understand that variable spawns is a good thing. I like it. Actually I hate variable marine spawns, but alien spawns are fine.
I have the thought that one way mappers can ensure more people will play their new maps is with fixed spawns. When balance is such an issue, and the games cysting mechanics so restrictive, a mapper has a much better chance of creating a fixed spawns map that people will be satisfied with. I think that derelict suffers syndrome this desperately, for example
tl;dr Would you prefer 12 fixed spawn maps that people actually vote for or 4 variable spawn maps people actually vote for?
I have the thought that one way mappers can ensure more people will play their new maps is with fixed spawns. When balance is such an issue, and the games cysting mechanics so restrictive, a mapper has a much better chance of creating a fixed spawns map that people will be satisfied with. I think that derelict suffers syndrome this desperately, for example
tl;dr Would you prefer 12 fixed spawn maps that people actually vote for or 4 variable spawn maps people actually vote for?
Comments
Agreed, but it already exists. There are no spawn techpoints, marine/alien only techpoints and also Biodome. You might have better luck pushing for the specific changes you want made.
@deathshroud ns2_hydra still has north-south spawns when I played it a week or two ago
hydra has fixed spawns havent seen north south spawn on hydra for weeks think its fixed meat
It seems to be more like " oh look a new map, and i don't know all the ambush points and sight lines within 5 seconds of playing = the map sucks"
These days map rotation tends to go something like this... Tram, Summit, Docking, Veil, Tram, Veil, Tram, Refinery, Summit, Tram, Veil, Tram, Biodome, Summit, Tram, Veil, Tram, Summit... Oh and a good 8/10 times you get a "new" map and people do a map vote for (surprise surprise) Tram or Summit..
I remember when Eclipse came out people would be like "oh cool a new map" only to be complaining less than 5 minutes into the game "this map sucks, let's do Tram"
They don't even give new maps a chance.. I've only been able to play Derelict like 6-7 times since it was released... Meanwhile Tram or Summit will come up 6-7 times within just a few hours of playing...
Eclipse has the problem of being hallways only which sucks for ns2 gameplay imo. I have ideas how to fix that but at first I don't rly have time for that and second the chance of this being implemented into vanilla are very slim since the dev team would need approval by the original mapper (I think).
Anyway on the topic of multiple spawns I can definately say that fixed spawns (especially for marines) are easier to balance and I would recommend building a map with fixed marine and alien spawn for your first map if you care about map balance. Anyway I like the challenge and my first map is one with 3 possible alien spawns and 2 possible marine spawns which is rly rly hard to balance. But I like this since it requires the teams to come up with different strategies for the different spawn combinations which basically means that a map has more depths and a higher skill ceiling. If you look at veil for example (even though it has variable alien spawns) you can see it is played the same way 95% of the times. Aliens go nano, marines try to get nano. If marines get nano before aliens have a second hive it's basically a win for marines already. This way tha map is easier to understand for new players but doesn't leave much room for variation in playstyles for commanders
EDIT: my name is written MEPHILLES
Variable spawns is most often just a minor annoyance, when it isn't a balance nightmare (Mineshaft's Repair-Sorting start via Crusher). I wouldn't mind at all if the vast majority of maps were well crafted with set spawns.
That said, there is a place for variable spawns. The extremely symmetrical maps work great with variable spawns. The balance is a little tricky, but very possible. Summit, Derelict, and Descent do a solid job at maintaining the balance of the spawns no matter where each team spawns.
Beyond that, I'm pretty unmoved by variable spawn systems. Tram's North vs South debate will rage on forever, Refinery does a decent job, Docking is more or less a mess wherever people spawn, etc etc.
I add to your first post this : if you balance a map in a specific configuration; you can 'galvanize' it to a point it becomes great. But when you add a second spawn configuration it may require changes that will impact the gameplay of the first one. Then trying to fix the config no1, will impact the config no2, etc...
Best it to implement many config and remove the worst ones. There is no perfect balance; only people who learnt every trick/corner of a map. As MawFo said: it's social.
Play more customs. Report more about it.
(Any tipo on names is purely intentional... wait)
16p server: http://wonitor.tacticalfreedom.com/
24p server: http://apheriox.com/tto/
Wooza server: http://apheriox.com/wonitor/
Those webpages also show maps played by popularity.
Edit: Appears I accidentally switched tto and TF. Thanks @frozen
In fact if it was we would have found and fixed all that is in need of a fix in any map.
BTW, any mapping guideline update to ensure a proper balance in maps (at least find what's wrong) ?
It would be the first thing to do after all. Any CDT/UWE/PT have it ?
That's really the point of this thread, I want mappers to consider the consequences of not using fixed spawns. It may be a thrilling challenge for some, but it never really pans out with the community.
So if a mappers goal is to make an oft-played map, the time spent balancing variable spawns is much more effectively used toward the balance goal in a fixed spawn scenario. It can let you create really unique rooms with really strategic locations and timings.
Fixed Spawns > Unplayed Map
ns2_nexus is a good example of a map that has traction and a unique, interesting, and fun layout which I truly believe is possible only because the spawns are fixed.
ns2_mineral is a map that has even more traction than nexus I think and it has only the choice between 2 alien hives, but I still feel the balance could be bettered by fixing the spawn location for aliens.
And docking mineshaft and refinery are like never played apart from pubs