IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
Then why get it as an additional thing? If you are to add something, dont add it at the bottom of the priority/wish list - It wont be tested out as well, and will never see real play. Exos was a nice addition, but it doesnt really play to the marines strength like the counterpart Jetpacks do. Nano shield will still be stronger than this discussed feature. And no, we are not in agreement - it is useless for the marines to use.
@Ixian you are getting ahead of yourself. My mission, was to first make everybody here realize, that this is not necessarily a mechanic that excuses or replaces laneblocking. That is the argument that people are making in this thread.
Seems like punishing aliens for doing what aliens are supposed to be doing and rewarding marines for not doing what they should be doing.
I agree that the mechanic, as it stands, is useless. But before I can possibly try and suggest to make it stronger, I have to FIRST disillusion these guys, that it is going to diminish the laneblocking meta of NS2. Only THEN can we talk about how to make it useful. By your own admission, I have accomplished the first objective.
Yes, as it stands, I will 100% of the time pick nanoshield over this. Yes, as it stands it is useless. We ARE in agreement.
Now comes the interesting part of the discussion. How to make it useful.
For that, it requires testing. And now we're full circle to my first post.
Yes, as it stands, I will 100% of the time pick nanoshield over this. Yes, as it stands it is useless. We ARE in agreement.
Now comes the interesting part of the discussion. How to make it useful.
But why? That's my thing, just seems too much like adding something for the sake of wanting to add something. The lane blocking thing is only one argument against it, I also am thinking that it just becomes more of a buff the longer a game draws out, worsening the snowball effect and also not adding anything to the game to really hook or appeal to new players, which imo, is the only thing that matters at this point. I just don't see how this fits into any tech path, and think if it was implemented, a comm would have to be an idiot to build robo 1st thing for this. I don't view it as a valid alternative, no matter how many loops we jump thru trying to figure out if/how it will balance.
I get that this is just a discussion, but what's the point of trying to polish a turd? (Just an expression, not calling the idea total garbage.)
If it can work, it can work. But imho, there are already better ways to deal with this which are already balanced and in the game.
@2cough I'm not the one saying it should be a techpath. I'd put it on the command chair along with nanoshield and catpacks or even make it a default ability. But that depends on the efficiency of the ability itself, which has not been settled yet.
The impact on the snowball I don't see how you can predict, when the values have not even been settled yet. It might not have any impact at all. The only real way to know, is to test it.
But why? That's my thing, just seems too much like adding something for the sake of wanting to add something.
That is exactly what compmod is though.. It's to add and edit existing shit and make the game less stale.
inb4: If anybody thinks that compmod is for the sake of balance, they have to ask themselves what the need for the hmg was. Marines were always favored, so why give them another really strong weapon? It was certainly not for the sake of balance.
I still think that it would be better to add functionality to the powersurge ability already in the game instead of adding a new ability... currently power surge is rarely used, if ever... adding a function to power surge when used on an already powered structure adds depth to the ability and allows it to be used on more than just rts... it also makes the "robo first" strat more viable than it is at the moment.
Santa, you would have your "electrified RT" idea implemented, but likely a weaker version than most people expect, because it is a secondary function to an already in game ability.
2cough, you wouldn't have to worry about something being "added for the sake of adding" it would now be "changing to make more viable".
But why? That's my thing, just seems too much like adding something for the sake of wanting to add something.
Because noone wants to go defend RTs, especially in public games. Its a boring job, unrewarding chore. It very depends on playercount and the map.
For example, not even laneblocking in System Waypoint can prevent Skulks circumvent to bite Sky and Topo. It even encourages Marines not to go defend these places because they'd rather take the PG to the action.
Leading to repeated rebuilding of destroyed RT's (if at all), more frustrated Commanders and in the end to loosing the game. However why the game was effectively lost is almost never realized.
This idea was meant to open the discussion for this issue. Stop downplay everything with L2P.
Also NS2 is still increadible Alien favored, especially the longer the game is going on. It just seems "balanced" (which in fact is more like 40:60) because Marine have the upperhand
in the early game.
If it can work, it can work. But imho, there are already better ways to deal with this which are already balanced and in the game.
Which are? Turrets and mines do not deal with this at all. Because noone builds turrets (to defend an RT) and Mines are too easily evaded or then gone for the second try.
IF something like that gets implemented it should be a pulse grenade blast without any damage output. Just the attack speed reduction. and the cooldown should be long enough that it can be only used once before that RT is down if no marine reacts to it. Also the tres cost should be higher than you save with it. Assuming it takes a skulk + 6 seconds to kill that RT than the tres cost should be more than 1 (since an RT gives you 1 tres in 6 seconds)
personally I don't feel the need for it to be in the game but I am open for experimental stuff anyway
I'd put it on the command chair along with nanoshield and catpacks or even make it a default ability.
Okay, So been thinking about it. if I am on board, it'd be w/ these 2 ideas. I dont like it being default, dont love the idea of it being tied to robo cuz sentries are already tied to that, but do think it'd work as a chair upgrade like nano/cats. I don't think it should do any dmg, I like the idea of the pulse effect without the dmg. To that end, I could see a small radius that's affected around the tower, not soley aliens physically touching it. I could see how it could be used more strategically like if a rine is responding to an rt under attack, maybe comm triggers it before rine rounds corner to help throw off the impending ambush, slowing energy regen and bite speed of the offending lifeform.
So I guess I don't hate it, though I do still think it'd be a little bit of a crutch as well as still not clear on its role - whether or not it'd be worth it if nano shield is already available and where and when it fits into upgrades paths. Is it still to superfluous?
The main problem I see with comments like this is that, NS2 is becoming stale for many people, this is in large due to a lack of "new" things or options to play around with....
The problem with comments like yours is they provide a condescending tone in your answer to people who know a great deal about exactly what problems are caused by what in this game.
Your idea to rid NS2 of the 'staleness' is to introduce a tried and tested mechanic that will drive people away. You know the problem with electrified RTs?
Late game, as a skulk, often the only thing you can do is put a bit of damage on an RT, then run away when the marines turn up. Adding a mechanic that is well-tried, well-tested, and well-proven to be frustrating, is not the answer.
The mechanic causes the marines to easily over-extend themselves, succeeding only in defeating one of the subtle nuances of the marine game - expanding with your limits, and making the skulk entirely useless late game.
That kind of change won't reduce staleness, it will reduce players.
Late game, as a skulk, often the only thing you can do is put a bit of damage on an RT, then run away when the marines turn up.
Well thats a problem of the Skulk and not of the Marines. Just doing nothing but getting a little dmg into an RT and then run (while waiting for better times) is not fun either.
Might aswell loose players because of this.
Late game, as a skulk, often the only thing you can do is put a bit of damage on an RT, then run away when the marines turn up.
Well thats a problem of the Skulk and not of the Marines. Just doing nothing but getting a little dmg into an RT and then run (while waiting for better times) is not fun either.
Might aswell loose players because of this.
Agree totally, the current system is terrible if you are a skulk late game waiting for res, as you are so limited in what you can do.
This idea how ever takes that terrible experience and makes it even worse. Imagine all you can do late game is bite RT's, and you end up getting killed by an RT. That's gone from terrible to insta rage uninstall...
Comments
I agree that the mechanic, as it stands, is useless. But before I can possibly try and suggest to make it stronger, I have to FIRST disillusion these guys, that it is going to diminish the laneblocking meta of NS2. Only THEN can we talk about how to make it useful. By your own admission, I have accomplished the first objective.
Yes, as it stands, I will 100% of the time pick nanoshield over this. Yes, as it stands it is useless. We ARE in agreement.
Now comes the interesting part of the discussion. How to make it useful.
For that, it requires testing. And now we're full circle to my first post.
But why? That's my thing, just seems too much like adding something for the sake of wanting to add something. The lane blocking thing is only one argument against it, I also am thinking that it just becomes more of a buff the longer a game draws out, worsening the snowball effect and also not adding anything to the game to really hook or appeal to new players, which imo, is the only thing that matters at this point. I just don't see how this fits into any tech path, and think if it was implemented, a comm would have to be an idiot to build robo 1st thing for this. I don't view it as a valid alternative, no matter how many loops we jump thru trying to figure out if/how it will balance.
I get that this is just a discussion, but what's the point of trying to polish a turd? (Just an expression, not calling the idea total garbage.)
If it can work, it can work. But imho, there are already better ways to deal with this which are already balanced and in the game.
The impact on the snowball I don't see how you can predict, when the values have not even been settled yet. It might not have any impact at all. The only real way to know, is to test it.
That is exactly what compmod is though.. It's to add and edit existing shit and make the game less stale.
inb4: If anybody thinks that compmod is for the sake of balance, they have to ask themselves what the need for the hmg was. Marines were always favored, so why give them another really strong weapon? It was certainly not for the sake of balance.
I still think that it would be better to add functionality to the powersurge ability already in the game instead of adding a new ability... currently power surge is rarely used, if ever... adding a function to power surge when used on an already powered structure adds depth to the ability and allows it to be used on more than just rts... it also makes the "robo first" strat more viable than it is at the moment.
Santa, you would have your "electrified RT" idea implemented, but likely a weaker version than most people expect, because it is a secondary function to an already in game ability.
2cough, you wouldn't have to worry about something being "added for the sake of adding" it would now be "changing to make more viable".
For example, not even laneblocking in System Waypoint can prevent Skulks circumvent to bite Sky and Topo. It even encourages Marines not to go defend these places because they'd rather take the PG to the action.
Leading to repeated rebuilding of destroyed RT's (if at all), more frustrated Commanders and in the end to loosing the game. However why the game was effectively lost is almost never realized.
This idea was meant to open the discussion for this issue. Stop downplay everything with L2P.
Also NS2 is still increadible Alien favored, especially the longer the game is going on. It just seems "balanced" (which in fact is more like 40:60) because Marine have the upperhand
in the early game.
Which are? Turrets and mines do not deal with this at all. Because noone builds turrets (to defend an RT) and Mines are too easily evaded or then gone for the second try.
Okay, So been thinking about it. if I am on board, it'd be w/ these 2 ideas. I dont like it being default, dont love the idea of it being tied to robo cuz sentries are already tied to that, but do think it'd work as a chair upgrade like nano/cats. I don't think it should do any dmg, I like the idea of the pulse effect without the dmg. To that end, I could see a small radius that's affected around the tower, not soley aliens physically touching it. I could see how it could be used more strategically like if a rine is responding to an rt under attack, maybe comm triggers it before rine rounds corner to help throw off the impending ambush, slowing energy regen and bite speed of the offending lifeform.
So I guess I don't hate it, though I do still think it'd be a little bit of a crutch as well as still not clear on its role - whether or not it'd be worth it if nano shield is already available and where and when it fits into upgrades paths. Is it still to superfluous?
The problem with comments like yours is they provide a condescending tone in your answer to people who know a great deal about exactly what problems are caused by what in this game.
Your idea to rid NS2 of the 'staleness' is to introduce a tried and tested mechanic that will drive people away. You know the problem with electrified RTs?
Late game, as a skulk, often the only thing you can do is put a bit of damage on an RT, then run away when the marines turn up. Adding a mechanic that is well-tried, well-tested, and well-proven to be frustrating, is not the answer.
The mechanic causes the marines to easily over-extend themselves, succeeding only in defeating one of the subtle nuances of the marine game - expanding with your limits, and making the skulk entirely useless late game.
That kind of change won't reduce staleness, it will reduce players.
Might aswell loose players because of this.
Agree totally, the current system is terrible if you are a skulk late game waiting for res, as you are so limited in what you can do.
This idea how ever takes that terrible experience and makes it even worse. Imagine all you can do late game is bite RT's, and you end up getting killed by an RT. That's gone from terrible to insta rage uninstall...